Need some help

[ruffian]

As some of you know, I lost a nice broodmare a couple of weeks ago. Apparently fell into a ditch with about 10" of water, and could not get out. She leaves a gorgeous 4 month old colt.

Insurance company is telling me she was worth $500. I have accidental life on all my herd for $5,000 (per incident). Never used it. I've had the policy probably about 20 years now.

My question to you is:

WHAT IS THE VALUE OF THE MARE? Not what she would sell for, because she wasn't for sale. She was here for life.

Her name was Soat's Lil Society Flame. Sire is Komokos' Little Highball. Dam is Soat's Lil Barbery Bay. Bud Soat is one of the founders of AMHA. Flame is 5 generations of truly under 34" horses.

Flame was 32" and 19. Old style, but straight legged, good bite, nice trot when she could get her bulk moving

Her claim to fame: Got in Foal first time, every time. foaled EVERYTIME unassisted. Never ever had any foaling problems. Fantastic mother. I could get in the stall while birthing and she was fine with it. (I've had those that aren't and they are a bear!) Foals grew nicely. Every foal she had was much better quality than herself. One of her foals was the Champion Driving horse at the BWMHC AMHR show just a couple of weeks ago.

She was in foal to my stallion Thumper for 2010, who is this years Julep Cup Grand Champion Sr Stallion X 2, and Reserve Grand Champion Sr Stallion, and also the Grand Champion Sr. Stallion at Eastern Regionals, beating out last year's AMHA Champion of Champions Showkayce!! Insurance adjuster said the foal she was carrying has no effect on her value. I BEG TO DIFFER!!

I'm putting some photos of previous foals and the stallion she was in foal too. Moderators, can we please leave this on the main forum and not move to the photo forum? It's not about the photos, but the mare. Thanks!!

Here is this years foal:

Last year's foal:

The stallion she was in foal to:

This is Thumper's first and only foal on the ground so far:

Not bad for a first try!

I'm saying that WITH the foal she was carrying, she was worth between $3,500 and $4,000. I'm not looking for a "sale" price, but a value. If you would prefer, you can IM me. THanks for any and all assistance that I can give to this *()#&%)#(&^ adjuster! P.S. this isn't the first time he's tried to screw someone - another friend had a house fire, and this guy offered them $2000 to completely redo their kitchen, laundry room, and take care of smoke damage. Nice guy.

I'm hoping that this - the mainstream life of miniature horses - can help me out! He did contact 2 people in my state for valuations - One was a quarter horse breeder??????

 

[chandab]

So sorry for your loss. And, sorry you have to deal with the insurance company.

I honestly can't answer your question. But, if you bought the mare, regardless of when, don't you have a price ("sale's receipt") for her purchase? It would be a place to start. Plus prices her foals have sold for, should be reflected in her worth. Other than that I don't know.

 

[~Lisa~]

Without an professional appraisal on your horse they will go for what the current market value is and they can look at auctions ect to get a "average" price and many are going for a couple hundred bucks

 

[Riverdance]

I am looking at this like an appraiser or an adjuster.

The first question is, what have her foals sold for in the past? What have they done in the show ring? Like the Worlds or the Nationals? That would help in giving a value for her. Unfortunatly, she was 19 years old and her productive years are very limited now.

She may have been in foal, but one never knows if she would have kept the foal. Did you have her vet checked in foal?

Four years ago I bought an 18+ year old mare (A Mickey Mouse daughter) who had produced an AMHA World Grand Champion Junior Stallion and an AMHA World Reserve Grand Champion Junior Mare. Who each sold for $20,000. She was in foal to a son of Bond A Toy4U who went on to become a Reserve Champion at the Worlds. At 18 years old I was gambling that I could get any more foals out of her. I paid $4000 for her with that kind of pedigree and show record with her foals. Also, 4 years ago, prices where much higher.

Now if your mare did not produce foals with World and National Show records, even though she was in foal to a stallion who did have a Regional record, it still does not mean that the foal would have been of show quality (if she carried it to term) Nor does your stallion have a record of any foals winning at the World or National level yet. Some horses are just not able to reproduce themselves. Did this mare have a foal by him in the past to compare?

With the market the way it is, I think $3500 to $4000 is a bit too high for your mare. I know you were not planning on selling her, but still, the adjuster has to look at what you could get for that mare if you did try and sell her. It is a hard pill to swallow, and we all feel that some of our broodmares are worth way more than the market would bare.

But I do agree that $500 is too low.

 

[miniwhinny74]

Ruffian,

First of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your mare and her unborn foal. I don't have any advice, but I wish the best for you.

Remind them how you've paid them your premiums and have never a had a claim. Make it clear to them if they don't treat you fairly they will lose your business--all of it. If your home, farm, cars, etc. are insured through them, I'd remind them of that. You might even need to get a lawyer.

With that said, go out and kick his lousy insurance adjuster butt!

(figuratively, not literally!)

Good Luck!

 

[Miniv]

I would locate a miniature horse insurance appraiser for another opinion. The registry may be able to refer you to one.

I would also GO OVER the Adjusters HEAD! Do it AFTER you've had another appraisal done. I'd also consider changing companies when all is settled.

Good luck.

 

[CZP1]

First off I am sorry for the loss of your mare.

I lost a mare (big horse) a few years ago who flipped over at the trainers while being lunged and cracked her skull. We trailed her in for lessons so it wasn't on our property. I paid $1500 for the mare and have been using the same insurance company for the past 8 years. They were hesitant at first about paying out the claim, but since I had a bill of sale, and my vet talked with the adjuster regarding the accident and her condition (she lived for 5 days but eventually had to be euthanized) my vet had to really "fight" with the adjuster and send a letter of her injuries etc. explaining eveything. (I have a wonderful vet who took care of that part for me). They did pay the claim. It took about 2 months.

When I had talked with the insurance agent regarding the claim, she mentioned that alot of times when a horse is over 15 years old they don't pay out the the original amount of coverage because of the age of the horse and the market value, they adjust accordingly. If you have another type of insurance that covers your farm, home you may be able to make a claim with them if it is part of your business.

Again, I am sorry for your loss of your mare and foal.

 

[kaykay]

I suspect her age is why they are putting the value so low. I know with my insurance I have to state the value of the horse before they issue the policy but I guess yours doesnt do that??? If this is a policy through your home owners that probably factors in too. I have heard they always value them at 500.00

 

[Genie]

From the "eye of the adjuster", I would look at websites, if possible, of neighbouring miniature horse farms, for a similar mare.

If you have a website ,I would be looking at that to see what your prices are, if any, on your other stock.

I would look at recent sales, yours, or others, and be guided by those prices on a mare of the same approx.age.

Some insurance policies request values of each horse, and then base the premium on that, as is the case with our insurance provider.

My sympathy on the loss of your mare. It must have been terrible.

 

[wildoak]

I'm sorry for your loss, but I fear you may be fighting an uphill battle. The last time I insured a horse I don't think they would cover anything over 15, or if they did the premium was significantly higher. Horses - like people - are living longer now with health care advances, so that may have changed. If you can gather good documentation from an equine appraiser and other resources, and they still won't budge, you can always appeal to your state insurance board. My husband has done that when we were denied something ridiculous, and actually just the threat of doing so got them to pay. They just need the right motivation LOL, and I suspect the insurance companies don't want the trouble of an investigation.

Jan

 

[Karen S]

Ruffian,

I'm sorry for the loss of your mare. She leaves behind a beautiful memory of her for you to love and take care of.

I'm going to address your displeasure with your insurance company. First the comment from one of the other posters about telling off your insurance company...insurance companies have no feelings, and people move their coverages all the time so telling them off isn't going to do anything. Yes, you were a loyal customer, purchasing coverage for 20+ years. We all buy insurance to protect the "Unexpected" and there are lots of folks who pay premiums year after year after year and don't collect anything from their policies. You stated this was and "accident" policy. Go to your policy, there is a policy jacket explaining what is and what is excluded (not covered) and it spells it out pretty clearly. Just this last friday I visited with an insurance adjuster friend of mine who has been an adjuster for over 30+ years. We were talking about horse appraisals and mortality insurance. He told me that horses are one of the hardest things to put a price on because basically it's this....What price is someone willing to pay? He was working on one that had died and the owner told him the horse was worth $8000 and that he could have gotten that two years ago. He told him he should have taken that offer of the $8000 for the horse wasn't worth that now. With the decline in the horse market (and we all have been touched by it one way or another) unless you have a set price on her that you were paying premiums you are going to have to prove her worth. You would need to let the company know that even though she was an older mare, how many offspring she has had, what was the selling price of each one of those offspring, they would look at how many reproductive years she has had left and would probably take an average of the selling price to get as close to a value for her.

I have been purchasing mortality insurance on my breeding stallion with a set value. Just about everything I have listed above is some of the same questions I'm asked every year when my policy comes up for renewal. I have to "prove" his worth. I also purchased a seperate endorsement for infirtility just in case a mare kicks him and renders him sterile. Again, I had to prove his worth.

If you are still unhappy about that first outcome, as a policy holder you have the right for a second opinion. If that opinion doesn't suit you, then you have one last chance with a third opinion (what we call in the insurance world an umpire). The company can hire a guy and you can hire a guy to figure a value and then the umpire will make their final decision from reviewing all of the paperwork from the other two guys that were hired. The buck stops with the umpire and can't go any higher.

I would urge you to go sit in front of your insurance agent, take along your policy and have them explain your policy to you. There could have been some changes in that policy that wasn't there 20 years ago.

Hope this helps.

Karen

 

[miniwhinny74]

First the comment from one of the other posters about telling off your insurance company...insurance companies have no feelings, and people move their coverages all the time so telling them off isn't going to do anything.

I presume you are referring to my post, but I didn't say a thing about telling them off. I suggested that the mare's owner should tell her insurance company that she would take her business elsewhere if they were'nt fair to her. When I referred to "kicking the adjuster's butt," it was in humor and I even stated "figuratively not literally." What I meant was for her to "WIN" her case (or argument) and to not settle for her insurance comapany's ridiculously low offer.

While I agree that the market is low, and the mare was older, and because of the nature of insuring animals in general (it's not like they come with a Kelly Blue Book like a car

) are all things against her, I still think that she should stick to her guns and demand a fair amount.

I once had a problem with an insurance agent over the wrong car being on my policy. (Too long of a story to go into here.) She was clearly in the wrong because I called her many times to straighten out the issue, and she still wouldn't make it right. Finally, I went to another company. I didn't "tell off" anyone; I just quietly moved on to a company that was fair and accomadating. My point is, if your insurance company isn't working for you, move on.

 

[MinisOutWest]

as far as I know, no insurance company of mine will insure a horse over the age of 15, so for you to get anything you are lucky, without buying a 'special' old age horse policy. but I have to update my insurance quarterly with show records and they can follow the true value of a horse, I do know the stud fee has to do a lot with it too, when you have a mare carrying a foal. not a made up one, but an advertised, cancelled check/ signed contract proof. but the company I use is great and not expensive, I know it costs 40-45 for a 1500 horse! I personally would not have a group policy, there is no real value set on a horse, so they will pay what they feel, just out of curiousity, how many horses do you have?

 

[JWC sr.]

While the market may be low and all the factors that the other posters have mentioned are somewhat true. let me say the following:

1. We have mares still producing at over 23 years old, very viable and salable babies.

2. Worth is a respective thing that has to be negotiated between the buyer(insurances company) and you (seller).

3. Anyone outside the mini business is going to have a really hard time placing a realistic value on any mini.

4. I personally know of a 13 year old brood mare that sold for 22,000 this year and a weanling filly for 50,000 and numerous weanling's in the 6 - 12,000 range, so there is still a market out there for good horses.

5. Email me at [email protected] and I will be more than glad to help you evaluate the mare and produce a written appraisal of sorts that may be of help to you in your negotiations if you need me too.

Good Luck,

 

[Karen S]

Hi Miniwhinny74,

Thank you for your reply and your thoughts on this subject matter. I'm in the insurance business and have been for many years (over 25) so am very familiar with unhappy clients and have experienced many a time what you were describing. It's ok to get mad at an agent and move the business when a customer feels they are not getting what they believe they should be in regards to "service". We are a service driven industry and it does hurt agents when a customer leaves for any reason. I hate losing customers more than anything and I try very hard to please my customers. Sometimes I do and sometimes I can't. Like I mention, insurance companies have no feelings and it's the agents that represent them that are the ones that take the blow. That is why I would encourage everyone that buys insurance to get sit down and visit with their agents and have them review every policy they have. Not every company is the same and not every policy has the same coverages, terms or exclusions. What was purchased 20 years ago may have changed in wording and coverages. We all have made assumptions that our policies have remained like they were the day we bought them and that may not be the case now.

The original poster was voicing a concern over how her claim was being handled. That is ok. It still falls back to what is and what isn't covered in her particular policy and what can be proven in regards to the "Value" of the animal. Every policy holder who has a claim have the right to ask questions and get the feedback that will help them understand what the process is. Have your agent speak in laymans terms as much as he/she can when reviewing policies so that you will understand the coverage in the policy and what you as the customer is purchasing. Never leave an agents office until you are sure you are comfortable with the answers to any question you may have.

For an equine appraiser, look in the back of any major horse publication...check with your local Better Business Bureau, and your State's Insurance Department to see if that particular appraiser has had any complaints turned in against them. Equine Appraisers come from recommendations from those that have used them in the past but be sure they are license to do business in your state. Networking is one of the best sources there is.

Karen