Need your advice, experience,,,,,,,,,

[Frankie]

For those of you with experience. What can I feed to help with a glucose level? It is at 32. I have found tons and tons of info on what to do, how to help, if the level is too high, but there is nothing out there for a horse who has a low level. He had blood work up done the last 2 Mondays, both were double checked, his level all times was between 32-34.

My vet has consulted with 3 other vets and they are just scratching their heads, and nothing. Lab reports have been sent to Purdue and Michigan State, but have not heard back yet.

This horse also has a very low t4 level that has been controlled with medication. He is foundered in 3 feet, and before any one starts yelling that a horse only founders in the front feet, please do some checking. I know of many, as in over 5 Universities that will tell you they can founder in all feet. We have been going through this for right at a year now, and I have done hundreds of hours of research.

Because of the founder, sugars, starches, carbs are out to get up the glucose level.

For now, we have added 1/2 cup of sweet feed to the cardboard we call grain, that he now eats. Will do another blood work up on Monday and see what that is doing, until we hear from the places we have sent the tests.

Until we hear from them, do you have suggestions, ideas, to help get his glucose level up, with out throwing off his feet?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Robin_C]

Carolyn, I would pose your question to the Equine Cushing's group. Dr. Kellon may have a suggestion for you. Are you feeding any beet pulp? This is a very safe source of calories and does contain carbohydrates like grains which are converted into glucose, but the form of carbs is different AND safe for horses with laminitis and/or founder. I am unsure if it would help significantly increase blood glucose level, but it is considered a slow release energy form vs. grains which are spike-like. In other words, the beet pulp should help keep the blood sugar more level throughout the day whereas grains cause insulin spikes followed by a trough.

And sure thing about horses foundering in all four feet. It's unusual, but all four feet contain laminar tissue, so all four feet are capable of developing laminitis.

Here is the link for the Cushings group:

Equine Cushing's Group

Robin C

 

[Frankie]

Robin, thanks so much for your response.

I have tried beet pulp and his feet were a mess. You know how very up and down they can be with their feet, so no, I can not say it was the beet pulp. But maybe I need to start with a smaller amount. Do you think those carbs break down to a lower strength of glucose, compared to sweet feed? Less sugar from carbs?

thank you again so much.

 

[chandab]

Robin, thanks so much for your response.

I have tried beet pulp and his feet were a mess. You know how very up and down they can be with their feet, so no, I can not say it was the beet pulp. But maybe I need to start with a smaller amount. Do you think those carbs break down to a lower strength of glucose, compared to sweet feed? Less sugar from carbs?

thank you again so much.

Carolyn,

Was the beet pulp you used molasses free? The only reason I ask is that some beet pulp is plain and some has molasses added back in for "flavor". If it had molasses added back, then it would need to be rinsed before feeding to reduce the sugar load from the molasses.

Sorry, I can't help you with bringing up a sugar level, as I'm needing to watch the sugar level with my little mare that was diagnosed with chronic laminitis with rotation on Feb 16, 2006. She is finally starting to feel better, but still has a long way to go. My new farrier is wonderful and so helpful; he was just hear Tuesday and will back in 4 weeks for our next go (we've almost got her angles back to normal for her).

Oh, and no arguments here... I agree horses can and do founder in all four feet (the fronts are just more commonly affected).

Get well wishes for your boy.

 

[Becky]

I fed beet pulp for a while to one of my recently foundered mares per Robin C's advice. It worked very well! She was needing some extra calories and the beet pulp was a great way to get them without adding extra sugar and starch. If you are feeding the shredded with molasses, you need to soak it first, then rinse it until the water runs clear. I used a strainer to rinse it and that made it easy! This mare did very well on it. She's now back on her regular diet.

 

[kaykay]

who said a horse couldnt founder in all hooves?? anyway no way would i give this horse sweet feed! what kind of hay is he on?? so sorry your having so much trouble. is this tango?

 

[Frankie]

who said a horse couldnt founder in all hooves??

After a new farrier came for the first time, and he told me this horse was foundered in 3 feet, I posted and a whole lot of people told me that was not possible. Even was accused of saying he had foundered in all 3 feet, to be "dramatic". Whatever.

He is on all grass hay.

The 1/2 cup a day of sweet feed we are giving him, has a very low break down of sugar. It is only an option until we hear back from Purdue.

 

[kaykay]

i must have missed that post. Sweet feed is normally the worst thing you can give a foundered horse. You know me I wont feed sweet feed to any horse at any time. But for sure im not a veternarian. I just worry that the sweet feed is going straight to his hooves. A 1/2 cup isnt enough to do anything nutritionally so I guess I just dont understand why you are giving it to him.

I know ill get flamed for saying this but we had a mare that was badly foundered on grass. We fed her ONLY alfalfa hay and she never foundered. The only time she would founder is if she got green grass or grass hay. I know people say alfalfa is too rich but it was the only thing that helped our mare.

Do you know what got his founder started?? Was it grass or stress or illness??

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I really know nothing about this, but I do KNOW that horses certainly can founder in all four feet. For sure.

About the diet. Have you looked into a good Senior diet? I like Manna Pro Senior. It is designed for older horses but all of mine are on it and they do well. I was thinking that since it is designed for older horses maybe it might help? Could you ask your vet about it?

 

[Bess Kelly]

You may want to check the "grass" that's in your grass hay.....orchard is notoriously high in sugars. Timothy and bermuda are usually much, much lower in that respect. Much has to do with when it is cut and of course, how it was grown/fertilized. The weather at the location of the hay growth can affect the sugar contents -- yep, grass stresses!

: Also, be SURE there is no clover in that grass hay. Clover can be a major problem with laminitis.

Instead of grain, consider the supplements for hay rations. READ the label. You will find most derive the protein source from soy meals, safer than any corn. In general, the beet pulp carbs/sugars are from pectin

as in fruits. Same reason diabetics can use/tolerate fruit sugars better than pure sugars.

Think diabetic -- as to food sources and tolerance. These are just my opinions and experiences. Offered for brainstorming your horses issues.

 

[wcr]

I realize it is labor intensive but you might try feeding very small meals 5-6 times daily to keep glucose levels up on more even basis just like they do diabetics.

 

[Frankie]

My dad is diabetic, and he has helped me a lot. When his sugar his low, he eats a snickers. :lol: I'm thinking that might be a problem with the horse.

The founder is from illness, thyroid. This horse has never been on grass much at all. All horses are different, I appreciate all who have given suggestions. Alfalfa hay will put him on the ground, and quick!

When I give him hay, I tear it apart and visual go through it. If I see too much of something, something that should not be in there, I either take it out, or get more hay. But I will inspect more. It is Timothy hay.

Because he is young, I had not thought to look into the Senior Diet, so I am going to do that.

Thanks again, you are truly appreciated for your time and suggestions.

 

[Robin_C]

Here are some notorious misconceptions about feeds:

1) Grass hay is safer to feed than alfalfa.

FALSE: The only "safe" hay is a tested hay. There is no way to "eyeball" hay and tell what the starch and sugar (NSC) value of that hay is. And, as KayKay pointed out, that means that alfalfa hay can be and often IS lower in sugar than grass hay and therefore safer for a horse with metabolic conditions such as laminitis or founder (if the cause was metabolic to begin with). Sugar/Starch content of any given hay or pasture grass is determined by multiple factors including state of growth, environmental factors such as heavy rain or drought condition, even the time of day (with respect to pasture) or the time of cutting (for hay). Plants are very responsive organisms and change their metabolism in response to their environment. Without hay analysis, it is all guesswork on the part of the owner, and the end result is often a sore-footed horse. There are several forage web sites which give averages for particular types of hays, but they are just that -- averages. Better than nothing, but analysis is the only way to be sure what your particular hay is providing.

Don't think I'm not without sympathy. I have no hay storage to speak of and can only buy small amounts at a time, so analysis for me is a moot point. Therefore I try to purchase what are generally thought of as lower sugar hays (like Bess mentioned): bermuda, timothy and yes, alfalfa. I stay away from orchard, meadow grasses and oat hays -- despite the fat that they are often much "prettier" to my eyes and nose. A normal horse will do fine on just about any old hay, but metabolic horses can be very sensitive to starch and sugar, so much so that even a carrot or two can put them over the top and cause them to develop soreness in their hooves. Since prevention is the best medicine, I try to do everything I can to reduce the starch and sugar in my horses' diets. A low starch/sugar diet won't HURT the normal horses, but can only benefit the ones at risk for laminitis and obesity (which is a high risk factor for laminitis). Beet pulp (soaked and rinsed thoroughly to remove the molasses) is a good substitute for hay and is known to be low NSC. Any hay can be soaked for about an hour to leach out sugars and starch (while most of the good nutrition stays intact). If you're unsure about your hay or your metabolic horse comes up sore -- it's time to soak or replace the hay altogether.

2) Senior feeds are "safer" than regular feeds.

Senior feeds can be just as high in starch and sugar as regular sweet feeds. What IS different about senior feeds is generally the % and make-up of the protein as well as the mineral profile. They also generally contain more fiber (usually in the form of beet pulp which is highly digestible). Senior feeds were developed for OLDER horses, plain and simple. They don't provide any additional benefit to the young or adult maintenance horse than other types of sweet or extruded feed.

3) "My feed says it IS low starch".

Don't always believe that. Almost every manufacturer has jumped on the low starch bandwagon, but not all of these products are created equally. A "low starch" feed that contains any grain whatsoever is going to be higher in starch than one which does NOT contain any grain. Call the manufacturer for the NSC figure.

4) "How do I know what the NSC (starch and sugar) content of my feed is?"

You call the manufacturer and ask (or PM me -- I have a long list of product NSCs provided by a reliable source). You won't find it listed on the bag anywhere, just like you won't find the calories per pound information on the bag. Just for example, the average ration balancer (these contain no grains) runs about 15-17%. Omolene series of sweet feeds are 35-45%. For truly, truly sensitive metabolic type horses, the goal NSC is under 10% (read that as bermuda hay free choice, beet pulp, + vitamins/minerals). ALso, take any manufacturer-supplied figure with a grain of salt. I know of several products touted by the manufacturer as having NSC in the teens but when tested at an independent lab the results have actually been in the mid to high 20s.

Why all this hype about NSC (starch and sugar)? For the average horse in good health, it isn't an issue -- tuck this post away for the time when you have easy keepers. BUT, for the horse with metabolic issues like acute laminitis, recurrent laminitis, founder or Cushing's disease, NSC should quickly become a focal part of your knowledge base. Knowing how, and implementing a plan to reduce NSC with a disciplined approach to feeding will pay off for your horse in comfort and possibly for you in vet bills. It doesn't cost any more to feed a metabolic horse -- in fact it probably costs less -- but it does take some diligence and unfortunately sometimes some trial and error.

Robin C

 

[HGFarm]

Kaykay, no flaming from here. I have fed nothing but straight alfalfa for 35 years and have NEVER had a horse founder- big or small.

 

[WeeOkie]

Can drought conditions cause bermuda hay to be higher in NSC value? We in Oklahoma (as you know) are in extremely dry conditions. I just got in a new round bale a couple of days ago for my mares who have some feet problems. They only get Progressive diet balancer and free feed hay at night. This morning one of my chronic founder mares can just barely walk. The only change has been a new round bale (it did come from my normal source).

Rita

 

[Becky]

Can drought conditions cause bermuda hay to be higher in NSC value? We in Oklahoma (as you know) are in extremely dry conditions. I just got in a new round bale a couple of days ago for my mares who have some feet problems. They only get Progressive diet balancer and free feed hay at night. This morning one of my chronic founder mares can just barely walk. The only change has been a new round bale (it did come from my normal source).
Rita

Rita,

Absolutely!!!! I foundered two mares in December who had never foundered before on bermuda round bales! These mares had been on Progressives' alfalfa diet balancer, alfalfa pellets and prairie hay. No problems. 3 days after being on the round bales, they both turned up lame at the same time. I'm certain it's the bermuda round bales and yes, bermuda can be very high in starch and sugar depending on, as Robin C said, certain growing conditions including cloud cover, drought, rain and dew!

 

[Frankie]

This has been going on for about a year.

We have done TONS of trial and error, so we have a good idea at this point what causes him the most problems.

I will do the washing of the beet pulp, see if that works.

My original question is the tuffest though. He needs some starch, sugar to get his glucose level up, all forms of that I know of, will make his feet ouchy.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[chandab]

This has been going on for about a year.

We have done TONS of trial and error, so we have a good idea at this point what causes him the most problems.

I will do the washing of the beet pulp, see if that works.

My original question is the tuffest though. He needs some starch, sugar to get his glucose level up, all forms of that I know of, will make his feet ouchy.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I know you've had him tested; but is there a chance that normal for him is lower than "normal" that the vets test for, so he is actually just fine at his current level. Is there a specific reason you are trying to increase his glucose level? [Aside from the vet saying his level is below normal].

I'm not a vet or doctor, but do know that sometimes normal for an individual is lower (or higher) than the "normal" range doctor's test for (I have a friend who's normal body temperature is a degree lower than expected normal).

 

[Hosscrazy]

Yes, horses can and do founder in all 4 feet.

I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again. Please join the Cushings/IR group. I am one of the moderators and would be more than happy to help you with the set up and membership to this group.

Liz R.

 

[Sandy S.]

CAROLYN,

HAVE YOU TALKED TO DR. CAVE ABOUT POSSIBLY SUCCESS LS. WE HAVE OUR FOUNDERED DIABETIC MORGAN MARE ON IT, SHE HAS BEEN ON IT FOR 2 YEARS NOW AND DOES GOOD ON IT. AND YES SHE HAS FOUNDERED SO MANY TIMES SHE IS FOUNDERED IN ALL 4 FEET. JUST A SUGGESTION IF YOU HAVEN'T TRIED IT.

Success LSâ„¢

One of the key areas of equine nutrition today is the high energy/low starch-feeding program. The advantages are many but often expressed is that the horse has less of a propensity to being excitable or “hyperâ€. Success LS is a texturized feed which contains many of the ingredients “traditional†feeders look for but also has beet pulp, corn germ, and roasted soybeans. The level of starch is only 23%! This level is approximately half that of oats. Success LS contains approximately 1535 D.E. Kcal per pound making it the 2nd highest energy-dense product Kent sells, being 2nd only to Omegatin. Success LS may be top dressed with Omegatin.

Specialty (7664)

12/03 ©COPYRIGHT 2003 KENT FEEDS, INC. Page 13A

Success LSâ„¢

Product Description

A unique blend of special ingredients

in a texturized product that offers

a high-calorie, low-starch horse feed.

Features and Benefits

High-energy and low-starch help

the horse remain more calm and

less excitable or “hyper.â€

A texturized feed containing “traditionalâ€

ingredients, plus beet pulp, corn

germ, and roasted soybeans to ensure

a quality product for overall better

health and performance.

The starch level is only 23%, half

that of oats, to help avoid excitability

in horses.

Contains approximately 1535 Kcal

D.E. per pound, making it second

only to OMEGATIN® in energy

density to support performance

and endurance.

Feeding Directions

Success LSâ„¢ should be fed to horses

at the rate of 0.5 to 1.75 lb per 100

lb of body weight daily, depending on

horse age, condition, performance level, and reproductive status. Provide goodquality

hay or pasture, fresh clean water, and salt free-choice. It is recommended

that feed changes be made gradually. May be top-dressed with OMEGATIN®. The

suggested feeding program is intended solely as a guide. The variables associated

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SUCCESS LSâ„¢

For foals, lactating mares, and performance horses fed

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GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Crude Protein, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14.0%

Lysine, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.7%

Methionine, min.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.25%

Threonine, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.5%

Crude Fat, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10%

Crude Fiber, max.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.0%

Calcium (Ca), min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.6%

Calcium (Ca), max.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.1%

Phosphorus (P), min.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.55%

Salt (NaCl), min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.5%

Salt (NaCl), max. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.0%

Copper (Cu), min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 ppm

Selenium (Se), min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.55 ppm

Zinc (Zn), min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 ppm

Vitamin A, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5,000 IU/lb

Vitamin D3, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 900 IU/lb

Vitamin E, min.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65 IU/lb

Biotin, min. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.32 mg/lb

INGREDIENTS 1

Oats, Corn, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Beet Pulp, Corn

Germ, Heat Processed Soybeans, Cane Molasses, Vegetable Oil,

Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Dicalcium Phosphate,

Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Yeast Culture, Salt,

Lignin Sulfonate, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Lysine, DLMethionine,

L-Threonine, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (source

of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione

Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (source of Vitamin K Activity),

Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate,

Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Choline Chloride,

Folic Acid, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Magnesium Oxide,

Zinc Methionine Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex,

Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Sulfate,

Manganese Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper

Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Sodium Selenite (source of

selenium), Propionic Acid, Acetic Acid, Benzoic Acid, Sorbic Acid,

Natural and Artificial Flavors.