New Pair Pictures

[keely2682]

I will bring them over to see you, Jen. You are welcome to drive them once I get the kinks worked out. ;-)

 

[CZP1]

What a great looking pair!

 

[keely2682]

i think i'll be doing a lot of reading:

Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach through Dressage Training" has a good chapter on pairs that answers some of your questions on equipment. Sallie Walrond is another good one to read, as is Max Pape's "The Art of Driving" and the british picture guide "Putting to a Pair." I'd also read the "Pair Driving 101-104" articles by Hardy Zantke on the Driving Pairs website.

in amanda's pictures, i see a brass crab on the end of the pole with the pair in the arena

i have one of those that came with my carriage but is not on my pole-

should i start using it?

instead of hooking to the giant footman loop under my pole?

or should i order a neck yoke?

i did read that neck yokes were for more casual vehicles?

would it be appropriate on mine?

if so do i order a slide on one or a bolt through one?

also i think i finally have my reins hooked correctly

THANK YOU ALL

 

[MiLo Minis]

i think i'll be doing a lot of reading:

in amanda's pictures, i see a brass crab on the end of the pole with the pair in the arena

i have one of those that came with my carriage but is not on my pole-

should i start using it?

instead of hooking to the giant footman loop under my pole?

or should i order a neck yoke?

i did read that neck yokes were for more casual vehicles?

would it be appropriate on mine?

if so do i order a slide on one or a bolt through one?

also i think i finally have my reins hooked correctly

THANK YOU ALL

The decision to use a crab or yoke or not depends on your pole. If you are using a drop pole you must have something up front there to hold the pole up. Using a yoke allows you to place the horses where you want so that they aren't pulled towards the pole. You need to be sure that it is the right length and set properly for your horses to keep them centered where you want them. In Amanda's photos you can see that using the crab on the end of the pole does pull the horses slightly in towards the pole although she has them set as well as she can with that arrangement - they need to be fairly snug. The yoke also acts as an evener making turns a little easier on the horses. You can't use a yoke with a stiff pole because it moves up and down with the carriage and the yoke would jerk on the horses constantly.

 

[keely2682]

how do i know what kind of pole i have? could you tell by a picture?

 

[MiLo Minis]

how do i know what kind of pole i have? could you tell by a picture?

A drop pole can be dropped to the ground, can move up and down while the carriage isn't moving and the horses hold it up at the front by the yoke. A fixed pole can't move up and down independant of the carriage and you use pole straps to attach to it. There are also spring loaded poles that you quite often see on combined driving vehicles that are fixed but set on a spring to allow them to move up and down independant of the carriage movement. You can use either a yoke to carry it or or pole straps to attach to it.

 

[MiLo Minis]

After looking at your photos again I see what Leia was talking about earlier when she said your eveners were permanently canted. I looked at the eveners then but not the crossbar they are set on. It IS the crossbar that should be permanently fixed in position and it does appear that it is not perpendicular to the pole but rather on a slight angle forwards on the left side. You need to loosen the bolt and straighten it out then tighten it down again - it should be at a 90 degree angle to the pole. Your eveners then can act correctly to take up the slack on turns and it will help keep your boys even.

 

[keely2682]

i think i have a drop pole

so i can use either a yoke or my crab?

i did read that yokes were only on less formal vehicles

does this matter?

i will check the angle of the crossbar and eveners and fix it if necessary

i think in the pictures it was just lightning pulling harder

 

[hobbyhorse23]

After looking at your photos again I see what Leia was talking about earlier when she said your eveners were permanently canted. I looked at the eveners then but not the crossbar they are set on. It IS the crossbar that should be permanently fixed in position and it does appear that it is not perpendicular to the pole but rather on a slight angle forwards on the left side. You need to loosen the bolt and straighten it out then tighten it down again - it should be at a 90 degree angle to the pole. Your eveners then can act correctly to take up the slack on turns and it will help keep your boys even.

Can you define "evener" for me?

Either I'm using the term wrong or misunderstanding how you're using it. The books I have use that term to indicate a moving crossbar that the singletrees mount on so not only do the singletrees themselves swivel, but so does the crossbar they mount on. This gives a large amount of play which can cause trouble for a green team as they first start the carriage. The purpose as I understood it was so that a horse who lagged back was still made to pull his fair share. If a carriage was equipped with an evener (singular) they recommended you lock it down via the same sort of strap arrangement that limits the movement of the singletree on a single horse vehicle.

i think i have a drop poleso i can use either a yoke or my crab?

i did read that yokes were only on less formal vehicles

does this matter?

i will check the angle of the crossbar and eveners and fix it if necessary

i think in the pictures it was just lightning pulling harder

I'm hoping Myrna will chime in on how appropriate it is. That is where I get into strange uncharted waters and out of my depth!

I have the books for that sort of thing but am just learning about four-wheel carriages and their appropriate turnouts. I know a fair amount about harnessing a pair but not the fine points of how far away to attach them from the pole, how to fix pulling or personality problems by adjusting the coupling reins, and all the technical stuff about pole assemblies. I'm so happy to be a student again!

I do believe however that if your crosspole were properly fixed, the only sign of Lightning pulling harder would have been the traces on your other horse being slightly slack. That's what you watch for so one horse doesn't get away with doing less work. If you see traces going slack, you get after that horse until he gets back into draught.

Leia

 

[keely2682]

You can't use a yoke with a stiff pole because it moves up and down with the carriage and the yoke would jerk on the horses constantly.

a 2 wheeled vehicle would always have a stiff pole?

so then because a 2 wheeled vehicle - cart or chariot- should not be used with neck yokes?

on a chariot bouncing might matter less in a smooth arena?

do neck yokes make it easier to stop a carriage or affect breeching?

 

[RhineStone]

I'm hoping Myrna will chime in on how appropriate it is.

Why do you think I have been so quiet on this topic?! I haven't put a pair together in years!

We just don't have anything that will go together side by side right now, so my learning desire just isn't there. That, and around here, mini pairs have been poo-pooed in the past by the bigger horse drivers. They think that the mini pairs are "in the way" in the show ring.

It's also hard to get a mini pair vehicle that looks "appropriate" for the carriage ring. A lot of them look too big for the horses and too small for the drivers. Tandem is much harder to drive, but much easier to get to "look right". So needless to say, I haven't been a student of pairs, and probably won't until I have the desire and the horses. The biggest thing I know about a pair is don't try to drive one by yourself!

I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.

Again, I don't know a lot of pairs, but I am not fond of a bar in front of minis. There just isn't a whole lot of room between their necks and their legs, and I seem to remember that we had issues with the minis bumping their legs on the bar in front of them. So if I had a choice to use a crab, I would.

I did learn this year that only owner/drivers use pole chains instead of pole straps, because pole chains are really a big pain to clean, but he didn't care because he had "staff".

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

a 2 wheeled vehicle would always have a stiff pole?so then because a 2 wheeled vehicle - cart or chariot- should not be used with neck yokes?

on a chariot bouncing might matter less in a smooth arena?

do neck yokes make it easier to stop a carriage or affect breeching?

I would think that a pole on a two wheel vehicle would count as a drop pole since by definition it rests on the ground when not supported by the horses. I've been pondering this issue myself for my own future chariot and have come to no firm answers but I think you'd need to have a yoke. What I'm wondering is if that yoke should be able to swivel or if, in the case of a chariot, that would be a disaster because it would remove any ability for the horses to "hold the vehicle down" to a certain extent in turns. I'm not sure I explained that clearly but I'm picturing the chariot overbalancing and instead of the pole being held in a certain orientation because it's fixed at a 90 degree angle to the yoke, it free-spins up front and the chariot overturns while the horses and the yoke remain level. I don't know if that would happen, that's just what I was concerned about!

There will be less rattling in an arena compared to a rough field, but I'd think the horses would do a fine job of jostling each other. Perhaps it would encourage them to get in stride?

I'd love to do as the one Champion gentleman has done and design a sort of curricle or cape cart type arrangement for my chariot based on the historical neck yoke harness (not the same "yoke" we're talking about here, more like the type of "yoke" used on oxen over the back of the neck) but I don't think I can afford a complete new set of custom harness for one class I might show in once or twice in my life.

Hence my decision to go with a modern neck yoke on my pole. What I don't know yet is the features I'll be designing it with.

As for how pole straps affect breeching and braking versus using a yoke arrangement, I'm not really sure. I believe the horses will have a tendency to lean away from the pole in response to the lateral pressure but I don't know how often that happens or if you can fix it by adjusting something. Sorry! When I find out I'll let you know.

I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.

See? I didn't even know the correct name of the vehicle never mind if it was formal or not!

Again, I don't know a lot of pairs, but I am not fond of a bar in front of minis. There just isn't a whole lot of room between their necks and their legs, and I seem to remember that we had issues with the minis bumping their legs on the bar in front of them.

You do have a point there.

Leia

 

[Katiean]

my boys' first time hooked up together

I love your buggy! Who makes it?

 

[keely2682]

John pavlick of lecanto florida

 

[MiLo Minis]

I think probably the greatest danger when using a neck yoke with Minis is that the reins can fairly easily get caught around the ends of the yoke because their necks are short. You would have to have the yoke so far out in front of them to prevent that, that it would pull too much on the horses necks. You do need to keep a yoke up high and close to their chests to make it work best.

It is the evener on Keely's carriage that is out of kilter. I would tighten it down and let the singletrees become the eveners was what I was trying to say. With green horses that are first put to as a pair that's the best way to do it and mine is permanently in that position because I use it so rarely - I am no expert on pairs as there isn't a lot of call for it in the show ring and I don't have enough time for pairs in carriage driving.

Having never driven a chariot I have no idea what would work best for it. I would love to give it a go someday though

I have driven a stone boat which is sort of the same thing only a LOT slower

Not NEARLY so exciting but a great training aid.

I know it's almost impossible to prevent the horses poling off completely when using pole straps versus a yoke but you can definitely make pole straps work the best they can by adjusting them to be snug but not tight as you see in Amanda's photos.

Out of curiosity if you aren't using a crab and you aren't using a yoke how do you have the pole held up?

 

[keely2682]

there is a large brass footman's loop type thing (4-6" long) under my pole

i have my pole straps connected to that, since i assumed that was its puropse

maybe it is designed to connect a neck yoke to?

neck yokes-

if i got one do i want bolt through or slide on ring designed one?

 

[keely2682]

I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.

i do have a fringed surrey top with this vehicle

does that make it more or less formal?

(picture posted with permission)

the lady i bought it from was criticized in ADS pleasure shows for turnout

she had sportier beta/stainless harnesses with shaped collars and holdbacks underneath instead of side

the judges told her she needed finer harnesses with the vehicle

can i use draft collars with this vehicle?

 

[keely2682]

to me the vehicle appears to be a doctors buggy

BUT it came with a fringed surrey top instead of a bowed buggy top

what is it?

 

[RhineStone]

i do have a fringed surrey top with this vehicle

does that make it more or less formal?

the lady i bought it from was criticized in ADS pleasure shows for turnout

she had sportier beta/stainless harnesses with shaped collars and holdbacks underneath instead of side

the judges told her she needed finer harnesses with the vehicle

can i use draft collars with this vehicle?

I would not say the fringed top makes it more formal. The formality of the vehicle is more or less dictated by its original intended use. A Runabout is still a family, get-to-town vehicle, even if it has a top.

The term "Doctor's Buggy" is about the most incorrectly used term in the carriage community. A true Doctor's Buggy has closed in sides on the top that is more protective than other vehicles. Here is a page out of a Carriage Association of America ID booklet. You can see what a Drs. Buggy is. Without the top, Keely's vehicle is a Runabout. With the top, I guess I don't know what to call it, because it is not a folding top. Probably End-Spring Buggy is probably the closest term.

In terms of what harness to use, you can use a full collared harness with this vehicle, and actually I am guessing it is heavy enough to warrant full collars, especially if the draft is low. There are many different styles of collars, and I know what you are saying when you use the term "draft collar", but that really isn't what you want. A draft collar is more of a work collar like you would use to plow the field. A draft show collar, like a scotch collar, is too much for this vehicle. You want a Buggy collar.

I think what the judges were saying is that the vehicle needed more of a traditional carriage-type harness instead of a CDE-style harness. A sporty beta harness won't show well in a ADS pleasure show. I would not use a Fine Harness like you see in the breed show ring with this vehicle. It is WAY too heavy for that, and you could bust the harness.

Myrna

 

[keely2682]

the carriage is between 200 and 300lbs- 2 people can easily lift it into a truck

it seems heavy for 1 horse but 2 have no problem pulling it even with breastcollars

if i use 1 horse i use my freedom collar

with 2 horses i use straight show breastcollars

my boys are 37.5" and well over 400 lbs each so not little minis

I'm currently using "show harnesses" from chimacum tack

they are a finer version of their sport harness but not as fine as a lutke

i think it has a 4" wide treed saddles and 1.5" wide traces

breast collars are straight with 2 spots for pole strap attachment so i can swap horses without swapping collars

harnesses have breeching with side holdbacks

they are beta with brass trim