Not sure if this has been disgussed

[Jill]

I have seen and heard from people that show here in Ontario Canada, I personally at our MHCO, CNE miniature shows in Toronto, and fall fair shows in Ontario, some of these horses have gone to the AMHR Nationals. Not sure what difference my topic would make from what shows I have been too.

Well, I just keep thinking of my long ago "trainer", telling me (and many friends and clients who were not there) that her stallion should have done better in halter and model (always placed near the bottom or not at all) because he stood quieter. All along reading your posts on this thread, I was torn wondering how much you really have seen, vs. how much you have just heard through the rumor mill and also wondering if there were other motives involved.

I know there's a lot of sour grapes in the miniature horse world. While most can see why this horse and that horse do so well (by being informed and looking at their pictures), a person who is jealous can try and detract from his success by saying "well, he's got a bad personality" knowing there would be relatively few people who actually KNOW the horse.

This is why I ask and you answer was informative. You know what Benjamin Franklin said? “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." To ask why there are so many bad mannered stallions being bred and then let us know this statement is based on a couple regionals shows and a lot of what others have told you is pretty telling in my opinion. ESPECIALLY when I know how many miniature horses I have known and handled in the past decade and how none of them had bad or mean dispositions.

 

[Reble]

Well, I just keep thinking of my long ago "trainer", telling me (and many friends and clients who were not there) that her stallion should have done better in halter and model (always placed near the bottom or not at all) because he stood quieter. All along reading your posts on this thread, I was torn wondering how much you really have seen, vs. how much you have just heard through the rumor mill and also wondering if there were other motives involved.
I know there's a lot of sour grapes in the miniature horse world. While most can see why this horse and that horse do so well (by being informed and looking at their pictures), a person who is jealous can try and detract from his success by saying "well, he's got a bad personality" knowing there would be relatively few people who actually KNOW the horse.

This is why I ask and you answer was informative. You know what Benjamin Franklin said? “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." To ask why there are so many bad mannered stallions being bred and then let us know this statement is based on a couple regionals shows and a lot of what others have told you is pretty telling in my opinion. ESPECIALLY when I know how many miniature horses I have known and handled in the past decade and how none of them had bad or mean dispositions.

No Jealousy here,

The reason I thought this would be a good topic because a mini friend and I had different views on the weekend about a certain stallion, that is known here, well know stallion and they where talking about how the trainer had problem handling him, but still takes him home and breeds him anyways, so thought this would be a good topic to have a nice discussion?

 

[Jill]

No Jealousy here,

The reason I thought this would be a good topic because a mini friend and I had different views on the weekend about a certain stallion, that is known here, well know stallion and they where talking about how the trainer had problem handling him, but still takes him home and breeds him anyways, so thought this would be a good topic to have a nice discussion?

Well, I don't know the well known and successful stallion and trainer up there and hope the trainer and owner don't realize the thread is about them and their successful horse. I still think Ben Franklin's words are right on target. And now you know, too, there may be many explanations for what has been seen and (sigh) just heard about.

I know how it can be with people who don't show, or show and don't do as well as they feel they should. We've all heard the talk (about how it wasn't fair, how the horse didn't act right, etc.) and this really of reminded me of things along those lines. I know if I had just stuck with my old, long ago trainer and chalked every time mine didn't do as well up to the things she did, then I wouldn't have the kind of horses I do now. Life is what you make it.

 

[txminipinto]

By the way Carin, I applaud you on handling the situation you described the way you did. As always, I admire your ethics in handling things like this. Good for you. Sometimes a really good gelding is great end result. One of these days maybe folks in the nmini world will start putting as much value on good geldings as the rest of the horse world does.

Thanks John. I completely agree that sending a young horse out to be "educated" can work wonders. Unfortunately, in this situation, I didn't have any horses I felt comfortable turning out this 2yr old with. My shetland stallions would have most likely killed him and he was bigger and meaner than the smaller mini studs in the barn (plus, I would never turn two client owned studs out together for any reason other than fire!). I also didn't want him hurting or breeding my shetland mares either. Now, I have sent young horses out to the mare band for some education and that does usually work well.

In this case, gelding was the best option for everyone involved. And the owner has his testicles in a jar on her desk.......

 

[~Lisa~]

]

Lisa,

It's also not uncommon for those QH studs to be doped out of their minds as well! Drug testing or no drug testing.

At least down here, on the Pinto circuit, which has several stock type horses most are shown in halter with a lip chain over the upper gum. The particular stud that I used as an example could be handled very well with a lip chain in place. However, it doesn't look very good with a cable halter!

Not here I am sure there are some offenders but these stallions were ropers and I was there as a drug tester so I spent many a hour with some of them waiting for that elusive pee pee

I saw some halter horses I was sure would test positive for steroids but these guys were doing well and were usually in our random placings for testing sometimes you are with that horse wherever he goes on the grounds for 2+ hours they were just horses that didnt care but again this is not all that uncommon in the Jumper and 3 day event or dressage horses either. Riding is for work and breeding is not a thought at that time

Of course every horse is different and every situation you take them to is different. I guess a large part of the difference in the horses I descibed above now that I am thinking about it is they spent a large portion of the day out of their stalls and working compared to a halter horse who can sit all day come out for 15 min and back into the stall again with time to listen to all the other horses and commotion and often not even being able to see what is going on outside those stall doors

These guys were out and about most of the day but even then there was no warning others do not come near these are stallions- no talking, dropping just doing what was expected of them be it with their handlers or with me while the handlers were with another horse and I had to watch this one and stay in the owners presence at the same time.

All of that said anyone who has been in horses for a long time has seen that somewhat rare truly rank mean stallion and Carin I would have done the same exact thing and am glad you got your client to geld that sucker so everyone can be happier

 

[kaykay]

No sour grapes here. I am quite happy with how my horses have placed. I cannot say I have ever been placed under a rank horse but can say that I have seen them over the years.

I dont think anyone is saying that shows are over run with bad tempered horses but it is something you see and I do think its a valid discussion

To me its really interesting to read everyones thoughts which is what a forum is for

 

[Jill]

On the flip side Jill I think the same thing could be asked of you. How many shows have you shown in recently??

Probably 20-25 shows in my time and figure that's enough to know there are not a lot of "mean" miniature stallions around

Plus, as you might have heard, I own some pretty successful, and extremely sweet, show stallions -- so there's some personal understanding as well

Any of us who've done well, or who have been outside a ring, have ALL heard the sour grapes and this just struck me as possibly trying to detract from someone else's success based on what we can whisper about but not really know...

And, I agree, it is always interesting to read other's ideas

 

[kaykay]

Jill I meant no slight and yes you have beautiful stallions. But to my knowledge you did not show them. And as far as I know you have not shown a horse in any registry shows in the last few years?? But maybe i am wrong?? But I think its fair to ask since you asked the OP the same question

I think we attended like 8 last year just in case anyone wants to ask LOL

Kay

 

[Jill]

Jill I meant no slight and yes you have beautiful stallions. But to my knowledge you did not show them

Now, Kay... why would I ever think you'd want to slight me? I figured it's just another incidence of you not knowing what I've actually done. And an example of us having a different perspective on horses and life which is to be expected since we usually do have our own ideas on these matters...

To clarify, what I actually asked the OP was "What are all the shows you've been to and observed these badly behaved stallions?" How is that NOT a very reasonable question -- to inquire about the basis of the reported "fact" is very relevant. The response pretty much said it had to do with a couple of shows and what she had "heard" (which is what I figured anyhow...).

Since you expressed a personal interest in my horse activities -- I've been fortunate to have horses in awesome hands in the show ring. Since I have been so blessed, and with my professional and personal obligations, I have done only what I desire with shows since my foundation for breeding has already "been there, done that". But, YES, actually, I have shown both my stallions. Plus, I feed and care for them daily. I can surely attest to their dispositions in and out of the ring, and to the behavior of other stallions in their classes, which was fine all around. Along with personally showing both (though of course, not to their big National wins), and the showing I have done on my own, since 2002, and all the good natured minis I have owned and handled since 1999 -- I maintain, there are not a lot of bad tempered minis in this world and that includes stallions... However, there's always gossip and sour grapes -- a lot of times from people trying to win in classes that their horses aren't really physically cut out to excel in.

Getting back to what you have said, do you mean to say that since the past couple-few years, since I have been blessed with a couple others doing most of the showing of some of my horses, the disposition of the stallions in the breed has declined??? That things have changed since 2-3 years ago when I was much more heavily involved in the ring myself? Or what was the point as it escaped if if that's not it.

PS there's actually been a rumor for a couple years now that you saw me showing Destiny in KY and spending time with Erica

 

[txminipinto]

Well, if I've learned anything in this business I've learned that the Grand Champion horse doesn't always have to be the one that shows the best! I've seen horses pinned Grand that never had all 4 feet on the ground at the same time. Does that mean it's acceptable for my horses? No. But, that person could have been having a bad horse day like I did this weekend and the judges saw past the behavior. Of course, this weekend to be pinned Grand, all 4 feet had to be on the ground! (sigh.....

). There's always another show.

 

[kaykay]

PS there's actually been a rumor for a couple years now that you saw me showing Destiny in KY and spending time with Erica biggrin.gif

Now that is funny! Because I have never in my life attended a show in Ky

Maybe take your own advice of

“Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."

My point was (actually the same as you asking Reble) is that if you have not attended any registry shows in some time, then how can you know if there are horses showing with bad temperments.

Since this seems to be getting personal and way off topic maybe we should take this to email or feel free to call me anytime

Again I never questioned the temperments of YOUR horses

This post is not about YOUR horses.

Kay

 

[Reble]

Do we not believe temperment should also go hand and hand with breeding?

Just asking what others believe?

Thanks for all that is sharing on this topic

 

[Jill]

My point was (actually the same as you asking Reble) is that if you have not attended any registry shows in some time, then how can you know if there are horses showing with bad temperments.

I just asked you in my prior post, Kay, if you are implying the temperments have really declined in the past 2-3 years? If so, wow, now that is really something

You're not going to convince me that many of the stallions (other than mine, other than yours...) out there now have become really evil in the past 2-3 years

If that's not what you're implying, what does a time frame have to do with it? My question wasn't about a time frame but basically "is this what you've actually seen, or only what you've been told about?"

What I think this thread began about is a lot of rumors based on maybe a handful of issues and that probably most of the issues are based on handling vs. "mean" stallions

And, like I initially said, I wouldn't breed, I wouldn't really even own, a horse that had a truly nasty personality. Nor would I breed a poorly made one on account of a good personality, or a neat color. I also would bet there are some who would not realize that some horses are "hotter" but none the less, very sweet and kind

While this thread is surely not about my horses, you are the one who didn't think I'd personally ever shown them. So, I'm glad I got to give you the low down and that now you know better

PS Kay, if you want to stop your input into this discussion, that's fine, but I haven't made it personal. I have only answered your personal questions of me.

 

[kaykay]

Jill

Yes I do think it is getting personal when you start bringing up rumors that have nothing to do with the thread like this one

PS there's actually been a rumor for a couple years now that you saw me showing Destiny in KY and spending time with Erica biggrin.gif

Things like this are probably best taken privately. Especially when they are so blatantly false since I have never shown in KY. Its obviously something that has bothered you (or you wouldnt bother bringing it up years later) so all you had to do was ask and I could have cleared it up for you "a couple years ago"

And why would I care if you were showing Destiny in KY with Erica??? Makes no sense

And no sense

Nuff said, I have to go feed horses and clean stalls

 

[Jill]

Kay, we already discussed "that" privately awhile back, and I felt it really did fit in with your incorrect statement that maybe I hadn't shown my stallions personally. Sorry if it upset you -- I thought it might be good for a smile.

I just asked you in my prior post, Kay, if you are implying the temperments have really declined in the past 2-3 years? If so, wow, now that is really something

You're not going to convince me that many of the stallions (other than mine, other than yours...) out there now have become really evil in the past 2-3 years

If that's not what you're implying, what does a time frame have to do with it? My question wasn't about a time frame but basically "is this what you've actually seen, or only what you've been told about?"

???

 

[Minimor]

Lisa refers to a group of QH stallions standing around side by side, quietly, paying no attention to each other. Same is true of other breeds...I've seen this same sort of thing. The difference is often this--those QHs or whatever breed are being handled/trained by experienced riders, and those stallions know their job--they know they aren't to pay attention to the other horses...and so none of them do. They just stand there & ignore each other. They can probably stand next to a mare in heat & not cause a fuss--I know our Morgan stallion was that way. If that group of QH stallions were standing there, and some novice rides up & rams their horse (be it a stallion, gelding, or mare) up against the back end of one of those stallions....or perhaps rides up & stops right under the nose of one of the stallions....maybe the stallion still wouldn't start anything, but the novice's horse just might give a kick or a strike or a squeal, & that could set things off.

I do find that in the miniature breed--perhaps because the horses are smaller & therefore "everyone" thinks they can handle the little stallions...there are more novices handling stallions out at the shows, and those stallions do not have the manners they should have. There are more novice handlers, period--and they don't necessarily have the sense to keep a sensible distance from other horses. Quite frankly no matter how quiet my stallion...or my mare....or my gelding is, I don't want your horse ramming into his/her rear end or backing up to stand with its rump under my horse's nose...for all I know your horse might be likely to kick me or my horse. I keep my horse a respectable distance from yours and expect the same in return. So yeah, I'm likely to tell you to keep back ( or at least give you "the look" if you venture too close!) even if I don't forsee a problem from my horse.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

I do find that in the miniature breed--perhaps because the horses are smaller & therefore "everyone" thinks they can handle the little stallions...there are more novices handling stallions out at the shows, and those stallions do not have the manners they should have. There are more novice handlers, period--and they don't necessarily have the sense to keep a sensible distance from other horses. Quite frankly no matter how quiet my stallion...or my mare....or my gelding is, I don't want your horse ramming into his/her rear end or backing up to stand with its rump under my horse's nose...for all I know your horse might be likely to kick me or my horse. I keep my horse a respectable distance from yours and expect the same in return. So yeah, I'm likely to tell you to keep back ( or at least give you "the look" if you venture too close!) even if I don't forsee a problem from my horse.

I have to agree with Minimor on the novice handlers and "everyone" thinking they can handle these little horses. And I don't know how many times I've seen people think these little horses acting up is "cute". I don't understand why anyone would handle miniatures any different than a full size horse. Regardless of size, things happen.

In regards to the stallion mentioned earlier in this thread, who is really to say the horse is rank and shouldn't be breeding? Is it truly a rank horse or just poor management on the owner's part. Since "you" don't own this horse you have referenced, I don't think you can give a fair and honest answer. You answer is only based on what you have seen.

Would I personally get rid of or geld a stallion because he was a little harder to manage? No. I'd be on my game more with him, be more particular about taking him out and showing him, handling him more and being exact about how I do handle him.

I have friends back in Michigan who raise thoroughbreds for the track. They had one stallion who was very well bahaved and any one could go up to him without worry. Their other stallion was an absolute monster and off limits to any one except Tim and Ardis and their daughter Amy. This stallion's sire was known as the "man eater" because he was known to pick people up by their shoulders and toss them down the aisle. Their son wasn't as bad but boy, whew he was something. Did they continue to use him? You bet they did. He could run like the wind and his get were the same. So for them it was worth taking the necessary precautions when handling him.

 

[Margaret]

Just my 2 cents here.

I once had a hard to manage stallion..A BTU, grandson with great looks and bloodines.

He was somewhat managable in the confines of our place, but that was it.

but I still wanted my children to stay away from him if there was any mares cycling nearby.

When it came to breeding him,- he seemed borderline out of control, and sent my adrealine too high for comfort.

I could never show him because it was hard to get him under control completely in public- if there were nearby horses.

A horse like that I could never be happy with, no matter how great his looks or linage was.

Then I stumbled across a different stallion for sale that had a managable pleasent personality, and was beautiful too.

His personality is so good that my children can safely be around him without my worry.

Ive also been able to show him and not worry about him misbehaving around the other horses.

He still warns other stallions thru the fencline, to stay away from his mares at home- so he's no dud.

He's produced many beautiful offspring that are being used for now both halter and therapy

I have never regretted my decision to change stallions after once owning a hard to manage stallion, as it has added peace of mind to our operation.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have to say that I personally prefer a stallion with a little spunk. I find a lot of Miniature Horse stallions just don't have that stallion "spark" and you can't tell if it is a stallion, mare or gelding being taken into the ring. I expect mine to behave but I also want them to have that "look at me, I'm a stallion" presence about them, I don't want them coming into the ring like a dog. In a show situation I keep my stallions at a distance from other horses and will warn people to keep their distance because they ARE stallions and other people's mares may well be in season which can get their blood going a bit. They are all big babies in the barn though.

 

[~Lisa~]

find a lot of Miniature Horse stallions just don't have that stallion "spark" and you can't tell if it is a stallion, mare or gelding being taken into the ring. don't want them coming into the ring like a dog.

Milo that is what I meant when I said our breed is a bit different I am not flaming you but for many large horses especially those stallions that are ridden that is simply not an option and they take pride in the fact that you can not tell it is a stallion compared to a mare or gelding behavior wise in and round the arena.