observations of the horse industry

[wcr]

It's been a looooong time since I posted here. For those who don't remember/or know me, I had a ranch in Rogue River Oregon raising, breeding, training, showing pinto minis. I had a fair amount of success making many champions and taking my overo stallion Doradas Spiritwalker, to the world show where he became World Champion, Reserve World Champion, 3x Horse of the Year. I bred and sold minis but stopped breeding several years ago when I had a bad foaling year and lost 3 out of 4 expected foals. It ripped out my heart and couldn't go on. I had answered newbies on here saying breeding wasn't for the faint of heart until I had no more heart to give.

I sold all my horses, the ranch and am now traveling and living full-time in a 5th wheel rv and having the adventure of my life. We live in a really cool country!!! Even though I no longer have horses I can't stop checking them out on Craigslist, always a horsewoman I guess. What I have found has been disturbing and sad. I have traveled coast to coast and have sampled a good bit of what is posted and the average price of horses is well under $1000. These are trained horses with a lot to offer a new owner. I have seen minis from free to averaging 3-500. I recently saw gelding sons of a world champion with Liz quality pictures for $500.

At these prices there is no money to be made in breeding. How much does it cost to geld a colt then sell him for $300? To say nothing of the costs to get the mare to the foaling point and if you lose the foal or mare where does this put you in the money picture. I have come to the realization that it doesn't pay to breed horses anymore.

Speaking of gelding colts, I have seen stallions for sale cheap, barely halter broke but has all the potential in the world according to the owner. This world champion potential stallion is not registered, not broke or trained for anything, has terrible conformation and nothing that would make me want to reproduce his genes. He is the horse that has all the stallion behavior that people don't want to deal with, no one wants to breed to him and now has become a "throw away" horse. These are not all big horses that I have seen, some are minis that they can't sell, are cheap and mismanaged in someone's back yard.

What about those old horses that are listed? Free companion horse, light riding or no riding, dead lame, has given it's best years and now they want someone else to have the expense of caring(or not) for this horse in it's golden(?) years.

And while I'm at it, there are many wonder horses posted that are so skinny that you would be split in half if you tried to ride them bareback. Do I pick up the phone to ask about the horse or call animal control to report abuse? Umhhh.

I just wanted to get this off my chest and maybe someone will stop and think about what I have written and come up with a solution. I am not trying to start fighting but just make people think.

My solution would be to not breed but go out and buy a horse that I can see and fits the use I want it for. Take a "throw away" and put some training into it that would make someone want to continue with a useful future for the horse. I am volunteering at Rescue Ranch in North Carolina and have been talking to them about sponsoring a low cost gelding clinic. This is something that can be done in our own backyards.

I will step of my soap box now and it is nice to post on here again even though I am no longer a horse owner.

 

[MiniNHF]

When my parents had their farm I was big on taking unwanted race horses and re-training them to be riding horses. Ive sold ones for dressage, eventing, trail riding etc and its amazing how willing and eager to learn something more then just running. Most I was able to get for a couple hundred or free because the owners do not want the trouble of selling a "worthleses racehorse," especially a gelding (which was mostly what I was able to obtain).

There are a ton of horses for sale now a days and not just minis; of all breeds and disciplines.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I remember your horses well. Always makes me sad to see careful and knowledgeable breeders sell out.

I have seen the problems you describe many times over here in my area. The ones that makes me shake my head are things like the stallion who barely leads but oh my, he's got so much potential in the right hands. Or as you say, the old horse being sold so someone else can see to the expense of it. Or how about the mare who is unsound because of a conformational fault that is being sold as a brood mare because she can't be ridden

One ad in particular for an 9 yr old Arab stallion, I have watched go from 2500 to free as they try to dump a horse that they think (in truth he does not exhibit the 'type' required by serious breeders) is too good to be gelded but is too unmannerly to handle. Yes, I'm sure that if the right person were to take him, geld him and teach him how to be useful he could be saved but my bet is he will eventually be sent to auction which here in Canada means he will probably be picked up by the meat buyers. IMO if you aren't going to take the time to handle a foal why bother breeding the mare. Why risk her life to create a throw away just because a baby is sooo cute. I used to go to auctions and purchase a young, unhandled horse and spend the time it took to calm it down, teach it some basic manners and then move it on to someone ready to use it. I could get 2-3 year old horses for $50 -$75 and yes I made a bit of money on them but I spent the time it took to get them started and the $ to get their teeth, worm burden and anything else they needed dealt with too, and it gave them a chance. I did this for many years but not once did I ever take on a stallion. The cost to geld here is quite high and there were plenty of mares and geldings to choose from. I finally stopped when it became clear that our market was in such sad shape that I couldn't be sure of selling to a decent home (or at all for some years) It is the same reason I have gelded my miniature stallion and chosen not to breed almost before I started. There are just too few good homes and I can only properly care for so many horses.

 

[poniesrule]

How ironic you post this as I step into a new journey, helping an OTTB who's outlook was bleak...

I received my first mini from a lady who bought her at auction for $25. She is registered, a palomino pinto dainty thing, but nothing remarkable. Super cute, not terrible conformation, but not what I would call breeding quality & her bloodlines aren't anything my research has shown as world class. I took her for free, had a lot of $ invested in vet care to get her in shape (she had been kept in a dirty dog kennel, don't get me started) and we discovered she has sub-luxating patellas. Our goal of showing her was looking like it was impossible. I then found my two boys and we brought them home. We paid dang good money for them, and they are worth every penny. Geldings, not going to be hauled and campaigned, we paid over $1500 and I don't even blink at it because of what they have brought to my family. The filly was starting to be ignored because she couldn't "do" the same thing as the boys, but loved all the same. There is no way I will sell her because I don't want people to breed her or abuse her in any other way. A nice family who knows nothing about horses asked if I would sell one so they could "see" if it was something they wanted to do. We worked out an arrangement where they are getting help from me & in return they get to keep Princess at their home as long as all of my requirements are met. The facility they have has been soooo good for her (they have hills, we do not)! Her knees are getting stronger, and you hardly notice the subluxation anymore. There is a good chance she will be able to drive or jump in the next couple years according to the vet! That being said, she was a FREE horse, I suspect some dwarf characteristics but haven't tested yet, and there is NO REASON she should be on this earth. "It's just that the babies are so cute!" according to the breeder. UGH!!!

My oldest daughter wants to start riding, she's 7 & pretty timid, but passionate. So now I am looking for a riding horse for her, combing CL may not be the way to go, but it's a start. Preferably something she won't outgrow... and just like you said, everything I am looking at looks like a problem in some way. Unhealthy, uncared for, a throw-away. But they're all "great horses. once in a lifetime opportunities, perfect children's mount." And my heart can't help but want to get one of these horses & see what I can do with them. But the goal is a safe horse for my child. Unfortunately it seems those are $$$. And there's a good chance that a "rescue" of sorts will be just as good! From my standpoint, how do I make that decision? We push aside the ones that need our help & find a way to pay for one that's kid-ready.

And then what happened last week? The TB that is owned by the owner of the facility I board at needed fly spray, so for the first time ever, I went into is paddock & helped him. I always ignored him because he isn't mine, and there's no controlling his situation. The look in his eyes, the gentle way he moved around me & sighed when I sprayed him.... I was a goner. So now I have a $100 TB on top of my 2 minis! Hopefully he will be in the condition to ride in the next year (barn fire... trying to decide where to share his story...) or two, or three, or never. But he's not going anywhere. He's another unwanted horse. She was keeping him so her ex wouldn't get him, but other than throwing him some hay not doing anything with him. Not her fault, just not ideal. Sad.

 

[stormy]

Just a hint if you are looking to rehab a rescue...esp for a kids mount...many of those horses you see in the scout camps and summer riding camps are not kept for future years, they are dumped at auction in the fall as the camps have no staff or funds to keep them over the winter....safe, older, sane sometimes overworked and tired but good honest horses.

 

[poniesrule]

That's a great idea! I do know that most of the camps around here have volunteers that take them home, but I'll start looking for other camps in neighboring states. Great thought!

 

[sfmini]

I just saw an ad for a mare in her 30's. I posted that if she were really in her 30's that maybe the kindest thing to do would be to put her down rather than move her to a new home and put her through that kind of change. Wasn't a popular post.

 

[chandab]

Jody, I think I saw that same post. I don't know if I'd be that popular if I posted, as I'd also be inclined to recommend euthanasia.

 

[Jody_Wayne]

This should be posted on all the group pages dedicated to selling miniature horses on Facebook... sure it will ruffle some feathers... but the truth hurts. I myself have no idea why anyone would continue breeding horses full size, ponies, and minis esp in todays' market, with the cost of feeding them continues to go up and up, pay checks are the same or decreasing, and horses are just not selling. And why should anyone have to buy a horse these days when people are giving them away! The whole purpose of breeding any animal is to improve the breed not to go backwards... and for the most part... most are going backwards esp in the miniature horse market. When folks have horses that are wormy, hooves are over grown, thin, full of lice, cramped in pens, tied to trees starving to death - then there is a problem... my guess is they have too many and/or they can't afford to keep up their maintenance. BUT yet.... lets BREED FOR MORE!!

Course this topic can go on and on and on and...... on.......

 

[secuono]

This is the same with all animals.

I remember in 2000 that my mother got a Chihuahua, she was $800. Now I can get one for $150. My first Doberman, not the best bred, cost $1500. New Doberpup I got 2013 is slightly better bred and cost me $750. With tested lines going for 8k 7 years ago and now dropped to 3k. There were tons of doberman puppies local to me, all badly bred, but very cheap. (I drove 7hrs out of state for my boy). They have now been on craiglist for sale again for several months, from the new owners who can't stand them, not all, but many of them. This is why I've always thought the price really meant something, it stops the people who impulse-buy, it makes people think about how expensive and how much work the animal will be. But with these cheap prices, "it's worth the gamble, I can get rid of it later and not loose much" is how I see a lot of people think. To them, who cares that it's a living, breathing animal.

There are no free minis here, at least I never find them. There's free big horses; mostly old, lame, stallions or have some other issue. Minis with any kind of (cool, loud, rare) color, even if they are dwarf or golly ugly, sell for $600-1k easily! The bays or other "boring colors" all go for $150-400.

Market is flooded with everyone and their cousin backyard breeding as cheap as possible to get a few pennies out of them. No one wants any kind of control of who can breed animals by the government, so this kind of stuff will never stop.

There's still some small circles where true working horses or other animals are worth their weight in gold. But many people don't want to bother with that.

All the websites stating that finding a good breeder, breeder that tests, trains, breeder that is well known and respected is important is no longer worth the effort. You can get "the same thing" for a fraction of the price by some random, unknown craiglist or hoobly user instead. They always have them available, so why bother?

I quit rabbits because of all of this as well, mixed with other things.

It's all very depressing and aggravating.

 

[Riverrose28]

First off I need to say that I've been out of breeding for a few years now, for this very reason, too many for sale, too few buyers. It's been a buyers market for years. WE as the so called good breeders are supposed to set the prices, problem is we were priced out at the same time that the breed winning in the show arena changed. I figured out one time that it cost me over $700 to get a foal on the ground if done properly, the extra shots, vet visits, tests, etc. Heck the well foal exam alone was over $260, now that has gone up. Gelding is now $300 used to be $150 then $260. No one wants a gelding unless its cheap. Except for us that know that a well trained gelding is worth his weight in gold. Cas in point, I had a colt gelded he was trained so well that you could clip his ears without a clip, he was shown, earned points but I felt he would make an awesome driving horse and we don't train for that. I had over a thousand tied up in him as a three year old, plus all my hours training. Could only get $100 for him. At least I got a phone call from the buyer telling me I did a wonderful job with him. My accountant is always asking us Why? Our farm has been in the red for years. I'm trying to retire as we are running out of money. Seriously it cost over a thousand a month just to hay and feed the ones I have left. I've sold, cheap or given away almost all of my homebred horses. Had lots of tire kickers. People on this forum would be the first to accuse me of neglect if my horses went hungry, but what do you do if you run out of money. Hubby and I are older and as of now he can not retire, we spend all of our money on feeding horses, sometimes I feel they are neglected because I can no longer afford all the best for them. We thought we went about it the proper way, bought from the best, paid trainers, bred champions, shown, loved and spent money, more money. What happens when we rn out of money is my nightmare, then down the road a new breeder pops up breeding 30 mares a year, goodbye market. Send them to auction and worry about them, and be condemned by your peers.

 

[MiniNHF]

I know when I set off into my own farm again, I am not breeding any time soon. I want a good core show string with a mixture of all genders and have them showing for a very long time before I even consider breeding.

Im the kind of person who will show a horse into their teens before I would conisder breeding them. We never pulled our TB's off the track early for breeding; I think the longest I saw one of ours on the track was at the age of 10 and he was a sprint champion (he was in good health and condition when he retired as well); and thats unheard of for a race horse, many are done after the age of 5.

Every local show I have been to almost everyone, big or small horse person ask me if I am going to breed my boy; as of right now no, but is he a potential future breeding stallion yes, but just as many said, with the way the market is for horses in general I would breed only for myself and it would only be one or two, nothing like 30+ mares a year, every year. I use to have a barn of 12 horses (not all were mine) but I was taking care of them all, training some etc and even that was a lot to handle at one time, i cant imaging having over 20 .

 

[Riverrose28]

Shame to say it's danged if you do, or danged if you don't. Some have gotten their numbers down, but have to decide who eats, the horses or us? Who gets the medicine, the horses or us. If they choose themselves then they are condemned for being negligent. Money runs out, the market is flooded, good, show quality, well pedigreeded horses going for little money, horse that once cost the breeder over 3000 now you can't get 300 dollars for open or bred, sono'd or not, there are costs with breeding that people don't want to pay for now. the buyers now want it all, but don't want to pay for it. Last week I offered a free gelding, we paid 650 for him as a colt, spent over $500 treating his eye, then another $260 to have him gelded. WE don't need another gelding, but as a colt with vision problems we didn't need. Thought we would count our lose and give him to someone that could use him, in whatever compacity. People that responded asked questions like I was asking ten thousand dollars for him. no takers. Poor guy will end up at auction. shame but we need the money, even though at aution we will lose money, but not have to feed during the winter.

 

[MiniNHF]

Shame to say it's danged if you do, or danged if you don't. Some have gotten their numbers down, but have to decide who eats, the horses or us? Who gets the medicine, the horses or us. If they choose themselves then they are condemned for being negligent. Money runs out, the market is flooded, good, show quality, well pedigreeded horses going for little money, horse that once cost the breeder over 3000 now you can't get 300 dollars for open or bred, sono'd or not, there are costs with breeding that people don't want to pay for now. the buyers now want it all, but don't want to pay for it. Last week I offered a free gelding, we paid 650 for him as a colt, spent over $500 treating his eye, then another $260 to have him gelded. WE don't need another gelding, but as a colt with vision problems we didn't need. Thought we would count our lose and give him to someone that could use him, in whatever compacity. People that responded asked questions like I was asking ten thousand dollars for him. no takers. Poor guy will end up at auction. shame but we need the money, even though at aution we will lose money, but not have to feed during the winter.

Im sorry you have to go through that. I was forced to sell 3 of my 4 horses when my parents sold the farm suddenly. I let go dirt cheap a ex barrel racer QH/Paint (excellent trail horse so nice) sold for 1/2 of what I bought him for, beautiful young registered paint gelding sold him also for 1/2 of what I bought him for and I broke him to a saddle and rider and a welsh/qh mare that was abused and sick when I got her and brought her back to be a decent little riding pony for a intermediate rider and I literally gave her away for free. I didnt have the money to be able to board them somewhere even field board or I would have at least taken two but with a heavy heart I had to what was best for myself and them and I feel they all went to good homes. The one I kept was my retired eventer/show jumper who passed this year at 28.

But your right in giving a horse away for free people ask you questions like you are asking 15K or more for them. o.0' really? and i was brutally honest about every horse, I couldnt be any more informative.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The problem is you can't do total blame on the backyard breeders, no doubt they are just part of the problem, they are the ones that you go to to buy a mini for pratically nothin registered or not. You other problem is big well known breeders who breed 20+ foals every year and have yearly sales more then once a year because they have too many. Sure they breed nice horses but it doesn't help the market any by breeding so many mares every year. You are doing a diservice to yourself if anything.

I have not bred anybody for more then a few years. I'm itching to get back into it but now I have good quality mares and no stallions, I will send my mares out to good quality studs. If they sell great, if not they will be my next show horse until I get the price they deserve. And that would mean not breeding the mare back unless that foal is a keeper.

 

[happy appy]

I rescued 3 mares and 2 geldings last year from the meat market. Out of the 3 mares 2 were bred. One passed away from the condition it was in, we couldn't save her. The other foaled. They all came with papers, some double registered. I hate it when I hear people say, if they are registered they are safe. Not likely. Just stop breeding is my though. Out of the 5 that I rescued another 50 went to meat. I take them in get everything utd and healthy and then I give them away usually because the market is so bad. People around me know the work I do and the money I spend so I have a "better, richer" clientele to work with to find great homes. Out of the 38 rescues that I have taken into my home in the last 10 years, I have only lost track of 2. The foal that was born this year already has a home lined up. I couldn't imagine purposely breeding knowing that their are so many going for meat here in Canada.

 

[wingnut]

MiniNHF: I can't believe I didn't recognize your boy from your avatar pic of him!

Terry: What you write breaks my heart but it also reminds me that your cautionary tale is exactly why I need to be sure to not allow myself to follow the little kid in my heart who "just wants one more". With 5, we're able to take care of them well right now. I am concerned about the future though and really need to put some serious thought into what my plans should be. I'll be 48 this years. My youngest horse is a yearling with my oldest being 16. I also realize the future is not certain no matter what you think you've done to produce a good outcome. Things happen.

 

[Anatolian]

EVERYBODY needs to start looking on Rescue sites. READ them, look at the pictures, videos. It's sickening. Listen to the news, all the hoarders, abuse, neglect cases. I know it's fun and you love them and especially the babies. I've been there. Got out of it as I no longer wanted to contribute to the overpopulation of minis now winding up in hoarding situations, auctions, going for dog food! Everybody needs to STOP BREEDING. JUST STOP! EVERYBODY!

 

[MountainWoman]

There are no easy answers to this question. Buyers want foals, breeders sell foals to unqualified situations, boys turn into stallions, many people won't geld and think mares have to be bred. I do think the market is picking up for show quality horses but that's a market in and of itself. I read that registrations were actually up last year. All you can do before you bring a foal into the world is ask yourself if you are prepared to keep it and not just keep marking down the price to get rid of it and if you are bringing foals into the world because you think you are going to sell them, then you are basically kidding yourself. Would help if foals weren't referred to as a "crop" because they are living, breathing creatures.

I wish I had the answers but I don't and it's very sad because the horses always pay the price.

 

[MajorClementine]

I suppose this is why, even though it interests me a lot, I have never bred horses or dogs. I got my mini mare, Clementine, as a weanling. She will be with me until she dies. I got my gelding (a stud at the time), Major, shortly after Clementine. I got him because I loved his personality and ground manners. He had been in 8 different homes before I got him. He was passed around and bred a lot. A woman who had him before me got my number from the man who sold him to me. She kept calling and asking if she could use him to cover her mares. Less than a year after I got him I decided to geld him. Needless to say, I never heard from her again after I let her know

I never wanted to be part of the problem. And I wasn't willing to spend the money to breed top horses like some of you on here. So IMO I had no business breeding the "pet quality" minis I had. Plus if I had bred Clementine and Major I would have ended up keeping the foal and I can find a mini who needs a home if I NEED to get another one. We have 2 riding horses as well.

I know lots of you have cut back or quit breeding out of your love for these little horses. Kudos.

@Riverrose If I were closer to you I'd take your vision impaired little guy as a companion for Major. Now that Clementine drives we take her by herself a lot in the spring-fall. Major goes bonkers till she gets back. Would be nice for him to have a buddy to stick around.