Overpopulation of miniature horses who's to blame?

[uwharrie]

Boy is that ever right! I have a very nice gelding that I cannot even give away!

Gelding are very undervalued... because they can't breed.

 

[Shortpig]

This is truly a sad situation. Yep I bought my first minis way back in 95' two little black mares and their Dam which was full shetland and a pinto with the intention of training them so my little step daughter at the time could ride them. Had a great buddy back then who took one look at them and said wow we need a stallion. So off I went looking for a stallion. Talk about luck. I found the sweetest stallion and he was a pinto also. The lady was selling him because he wasn't small enough for her. Gave us a great deal on him and we were in business. Bred three mares that year. Got three awesome little fillies the next year. I was impressed. They were so much fun and I fell head over heals. So sold all but one of the fillies and bred back one mare. Next year got another awesome little filly and boy did she have color. Decided to sell the first filly I kept and kept the second one. Was able to keep her till she was about 18mos and sold her. Thought ok life is getting a little better. Bred the mare one more time and got a sweet very pretty little colt. Over the years my two mares have blessed me with seven very sweet, very nice, foals. I've loved each and everyone of them.

Then the Duck was born and at that time no one wanted to pay money for her because she had so much white. So I kept her. Waited two more years and bred one more time and got my Koda Bear. We are happy. Then on here I noticed that people were breeding for anywhere from 50 to 100 foals a year.

I couldn't believe it and still don't.

I was considering breeding a mare "one mare" this year and boy did I get flamed and educated by some people on this forum. I was talking about one foal not 50 not 100 not even two. It has been seven years since I have had a foal. Wow! I decided not to breed tried one time and gave up.

I love my horses. I mean I truly love my horses. It took me a long time to be financially stable enough to geld Koda but I did it. Then to get the money to get Duckie trained properly for driving. She needed a job and now she has one. Now I plan on getting Koda trained to drive so he has a job other than be his Daddy's bestest friend. You may disagree but I have quality horses. I now have three driving horses and next year I plan on having four. There will only be one that doesn't and that isn't her fault. My horses will be with me till death do us part and then my daughter will take over. The greatest thing is our horses also love and trust us. They know when I raise my hand it is for petting and nothing else. They get hugs and kisses. All of them not just a few of them. How can someone who owns 100 horses give them all love and attention on a daily basis. They deserve it.

So who is at fault not me I will guarantee you that. I wonder what would happen if everyone gave their mares a couple years off after each foal instead of breeding that poor mare every single year.

God I wouldn't have wanted to be pregnant every single year. My heart goes out to those mares. Good Lord give them a break.

 

[Cricket]

EVERYONE who breeds is at fault. Big breeder, small breeder ALL add to the overpopulation of minis.

 

[jegray21]

Exactly. breeding needs to be done with real thought behind it. I imagine if there are less miniatures to choose from the prices with go up and the abuse and poor treatment from going to uneducated people will go down. Higher prices will make it harder for those who can not afford to feed them to buy them in the first place. There is a mini at a neighbors barn who lost an ear and part of his lip due to abuse. It's sick. Breeders need to love their breed enough to protect them!

 

[miniwhinny]

I was considering breeding a mare "one mare" this year and boy did I get flamed and educated by some people on this forum. I was talking about one foal not 50 not 100 not even two.

And I wonder how many of those who flamed you for breeding your one baby had a mare or two pregnant in their fields!

I can't comment on your exact situation - don't know why you were flamed (sorry

) BUT I can say that there's a HUGE problem with people being "star struck". By that I mean it's easy for people to slam the little guy than look at...well lets not name names lol but big "famous" breeding ops that breed like it's going out of style and then dump the rejects at a big fire sale. Fingers should certainly be pointed that way too but you never see it happening !

And in all honesty I think the big breeders are more to blame. I've had large horses all my life and purchased a good number over the years. Everytime I've purchased from a breeding farm BAR NONE I've purchased half wild, never wormed, never trimmed, no shots horses that truely have NOT been cared for. I'm not a backyard breeder because I don't breed but my two horses are of the finest quality, awesome bloodlines, could hold their own at any show. They're people lovers, up to date on shots, worming, hoof care and are cared for better than they could ever be cared for on a large fancy breeding farm. Like Sue C said...big breeders with fancy bloodlines does NOT guarantee they are producing the "best".

In the long run everyone breeding is to blame but these farms producing dozens of foals a year are certainly dozens of times more to blame...that's just simple math !

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Sue_C

When I use the term backyard breeder I'm talking about those who continue to breed unregistered unquality horses who try to make a profit by selling locally. It doesn't matter if you breed 5 or 50 you are a backyard breeder.

I am not a huge farm by any means. But I do try to produce show quality foals. Not saying that every foal I have produced is winning, but they are registred and they aren't unquality. However I would like to do better in my breeding program so I have taken a back seat on breeding. Not breeding anyone this year. I still continue to show and that does help me on what I'm looking for. If you can't show thats fine but I still recommend on going to see whats out there. Cause how do you know what to breed for if you can't see whats winning.

Also as someone else has mentioned I personally can't stand it when I see people selling horses to make room for the new foals. If you don't have room stop breeding. I also can't stand it when someone is trying to sell, especially mares they must be infoal or they can't sell. Thats not true at all. Let the buyer decide if they wan't the mare bred or not, otherwise you may have a foal to deal with if you can't sell the mare. Also another thing when you are selling a mare some people might want to show her but can't cause she is infoal, and I'm not talking about a older broodmare I'm talking about 2 year olds. Big farms that produce well over 50+ are breeding 2 year olds and I'm positive they aren't accidental breedings, and these are big known farms. Come on.

These are just a few things that we need to consider if we care about this breed. Instead of focousing on breeding, perhaps we need to focous our attention to our breed shows, getting people out there to show and not breed, get peoples attention to the fact that these miniatures can do a whole lot more then what people think and not just a breeding factory. Thats why our geldings can't sell. Trained geldings are HOT in the biggies, but I still unfortuantly don't see that in the minis. If you want them as pets, great, geldings are perfect, but you don't need a mare and a stud for a pet.

I don't know just my 2 cents.

 

[~Lisa~]

I think a key issue here is many are so busy looking at others thinking they themselves are breeding top stock- the best- some might be - some surely are not- everyone thinks they have quality horses everyone and yes every horse has some redeeming qualities. We love our horses and do believe them to be amazing which is why we pay money for them

IMO anyone who has bred a horse is to blame. I do not care how long you have been doing this - I do not care if you feel you have only breed show quality foals or found them great homes. Reality is great homes may need to sell and that makes them no less of a good home then you were when you sold to them.

Now breeding does not make anyone a bad person nor does it make them the sole problem but everyone who breeds even one foal does need to accept a portion of responsibility. That does not mean no one should breed anymore. Everyone has to do what is right for them and realize the impact it has not only on their own lives but the industry as a whole. That impact may be great- it may be small but it is impacting something for sure.

Not everyone will feel the need to geld I have spent quite a bit of money on stallions and gelded them. Just was easier for me to not have stallions around anymore and yet be able to keep the horses we have grown to love. My decision will not be the right one for everyone. I am glad there are those who are continuing to breed we need them I am not anti breeding as long as the responsibility to the industry as a whole is realized.

 

[targetsmom]

I think there have been a lot of good points made here and I agree with most of them. I never considered that the minis themselves were part of the problem, but I think that is a major point!!! They attract lots of people with no horse experience, who then immediately want to get into breeding. that does NOT happen with big horses. And people can buy just one big horse and stop - it seems like most of them do stop at one.

I am also a believer in "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Yes, I breed, so I am very much a part of the problem. I am trying to breed top quality minis, but there will always be someone breeding BETTER minis than mine... and lots of people breeding lower quality ones. My part of the "solution" is to breed minis that can DO something - lots of things actually, as we want them to be versatile. So we are out there at driving events, A & R shows, pinto shows, open shows, after school horse programs, working with the local Ag Science High School (that now owns their own mini), and local events. I happen to feel that promoting minis to other horse enthusiasts through OPEN horse shows is more effective in the long run than showing only to other mini owners at AMHA & AMHR shows. Other people in CT seem to agree with me and there are now plenty of opportunities to show minis at OPEN shows with established show series.

 

[Sue_C.]

Sue_C When I use the term backyard breeder I'm talking about those who continue to breed unregistered unquality horses who try to make a profit by selling locally. It doesn't matter if you breed 5 or 50 you are a backyard breeder.

I know you didn't mean to offend by your post, and you didn't, but I grabbed that opportunity to "run with it", on the terminology.

As far as geldings not being worth their salt within our breed, it is the industry as a whole that is at fault. If more people would see the good sence in gelding the horses they think are their best...and PROMOTED them...just imagine how people would look harder at their horses. It is a trend I am seeing more of in the past few years however...so things are looking up.

I have had people come up to me and say to me, "He's a GELDING?" "Why on earth did you geld HIM"!?! They are so impressed with my geldings, that they say that the sire must be something else! Which, he was...although never shown, because we had and still have no sanctioned shows here to take him to. But, I am lucky as I know good conformation. I don't need someone else to give me a ribbon telling me I am right...but then too, I come from a life-time of owning and showing several breeds in both halter, and performance, and learned from the very best. I digress, it is just something I am so very passionate about.

I no longer breed my horses, but might breed one of my mares one more time in the future. A couple of my former mares are still being bred by the woman who bought them, but they are fine mares, and she finds great homes for her excellent foals. She too, is a "Small Breeder" who looks hard at her horses, and knows what she has. She doesn't breed indiscriminately, and I am proud to know her, and to have been in some small way resposible for some of the good foals being produced on her farm. We don't all have to stop, but we do have to stop and LOOK, at what is being produced, how often, and why.

 

[JWC sr.]

First of all let me try to put a couple of pieces of informations in this discussion.

First we have been in miniatures since 1982 and have been showing for the last 12 years. Life Time members of AMHR and AMHA. Currently we own 42 miniatures and 9 classic/foundation Shetlands.

We do breed and enjoy that aspect of the industry the most. Planning, securing the bloodlines we want, evaluating the results, continuing with some, discarding some "brilliant Ideas" when they do not work out and trying to produce that next world/national champion for ourselves or for our customers.

Every year when the foaling is over we try to honestly look at the results and evaluate from several standpoints. Was the result what we expected? Can the horse we produced be placed in a situation to have a "life" job be that driving, halter or some other performance venue.

If the answers come back no in any case, we don't produce that baby again. No matter the cost. And yes some of our most expensive projects have failed miserably. You learn and then move on to the next challenge.

In miniatures particularly, more than any other breed we have been involved in it is a real challenge to use all the information that you think you know and great predictable/positive results every time. At this point in the evolution of the "breed" it just does not happen. The shotgun approach that we and many other used back 10 or 12 years ago is just not prudent if you care anything about the horses and what happens to the horses after they leave your care. Thus we have reduced our herd from over 130 horses to the point where we are today. It is a function of a real desire of trying to be a quality breeder as versus just producing numbers and getting the random home run horse from time to time.

That is one of the reasons we changed our approach to gelding all the colts we produce with the exception of 1 or 2 that we think can "really" be a national contender. It takes a great stallion to become a winning gelding now days and that is a good thing in our eyes.

With all that said, the biggest problem we have in the miniature industry in my opinion is not a matter of too many horses, it is a matter of all of us trading rocks on the same island if you will. The influx of new people into the miniature industry has slowed to a snails pace and unless we as members of that industry do things to cause new folks to come into the industry we will never see real growth in the industry as a whole.

What is that going to take is the real question in my mind?

I would suggest the following would do a lot towards that end.

1. Influence the registries as we know them today to be inclusive and proactive in advertising, promoting and exposing new people to the miniature horse. The "breed" has all the attributes that are needed to be a mass appealing product if folks are exposed to them often and early in the equine experience so many folks desire. This is expensive, but for the long range health of the "breed" it is important. We cannot be short sighted when it comes to this type thing.

2. Limit all of our breeding, no matter the size of your farm to focusing on the attributes that will produce functional and useful horses for others to enjoy.

3. Market and market and market some more in our own neck of the woods by hosting youth/ammy days, 4-H field trips, gelding give aways for local charities, parades etc. etc. Be anywhere that a group of non-miniature people are going to be!

4. Find life jobs for any and every horse you produce and/or sell.

5. Support and work thru your local clubs to put on good venues for people to participate in on a local basis. Think outside the box and don't repeat things just because that is the way things have been done in the past.

6. Try to get along among ourselves, to create a pleasant/inviting atmosphere for families to participate in at whatever level they want to be involved with miniatures in.

My two cents worth, sorry it was so long. But I am passionate about these little horses and their well being for years to come.

 

[dvk]

It seems from all the posts I'm reading that we are all of a like mind !! Too much breeding , not enough good status given to geldings and " they are still addictive , you can't have just one " LOL !! Now...... will all this consensus amount to a solution to the overpopulation , neglect problem ? DOUBTFUL ..... just soothes our frustration .

Seriously tho , perhaps a movement to restrict registrations to get of a stallion that is 6+ years , and passes a live exam from a panel of judges as to his breeding viability !! Yea right ...... like THAT would ever fly , LOL !!

As many noted .... unregistered stock is a huge contributor to this situation . For years when I sold horses I included all the paperwork necessary ( and an updated medical record of all vaccines , worming , hoof trims , etc. )for transferring to new owners whether it was a homebred young horse or older animal only to find later that none were re-registered and for all purposes are among the " lost souls " . Auctions ARE famous for moving these animals like cards being shuffled . BUT..... this also happens often in private transactions .

As distasteful as it might seem , microchipping , tatooing and all other forms of permanent identification might help , but unless there is a painful deterrant ( usually $ based ), overbreeding will continue , both from the uninformed and the " I know what I'm doing " candidate .

Whenever I get a tempting thought to breed " just for a cute new baby " , I slap myself on the side of the head and remind myself that this baby will be around for the next 20 years !! I am now breeding 1 mare for the LAST time and as an end to my breeding operation . How many of us want to have a family of 10 human kids , who will ALWAYS need daily monitoring ?

 

[sedeh]

I am also a believer in "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Yes, I breed, so I am very much a part of the problem. I am trying to breed top quality minis, but there will always be someone breeding BETTER minis than mine... and lots of people breeding lower quality ones. My part of the "solution" is to breed minis that can DO something - lots of things actually, as we want them to be versatile. So we are out there at driving events, A & R shows, pinto shows, open shows, after school horse programs, working with the local Ag Science High School (that now owns their own mini), and local events. I happen to feel that promoting minis to other horse enthusiasts through OPEN horse shows is more effective in the long run than showing only to other mini owners at AMHA & AMHR shows. Other people in CT seem to agree with me and there are now plenty of opportunities to show minis at OPEN shows with established show series.

I so agree with you Mary!! I think one of the keys is to expose more "big horse" people to the minis and what all they can do. Showing Pinto has been a great experience for me and we've had quite a few "converts" from the big horses. We always have an audience when the minis are jumping and driving. I like producing versatile, athletic minis that are not just pretty to look at but are performance horses also. Our open shows have had increasing numbers of minis showing....they may not be the "top quality" minis but they're out there in performance classes and having a good time. One of the local farms has been putting on open shows and had such a good response from the mini's that they put on 2 open shows just for minis! They also have a trail trial series that has become so popular that they split the show into 2 days...in-hand trail on one day and ridden trail on another.

I do think we need to be more selective on the mini's we breed and be responsible and only breed what you can keep or have been able to sell. I'm only breeding one or two mini's a year and if they're not selling I'll not breed next year. I personally have gelded colts that I didn't think were stallion quality. I like geldings for performance horses and the CDE people love geldings!

 

[RhineStone]

Those of you 4-H Alumni, remember those Record Books? You know, where you had to list your goals for your 4-H Project and at the end, record all of your expenses and determine if you made a profit or a loss? (I ALWAYS had a loss with my Horse Project!) Maybe some of these "backyard breeders" (and even some big breeders) that are selling foals (or not selling foals, but feeding them instead because they can't sell them) need to determine if their "Project" is really contributing to their income, including stabling and fencing costs, trailering, vet, feed, deworming (if being done), farrier, etc. I bet if they ran the numbers, they would realize it is COSTING them $$ to breed horses, not making them $$. So much for that argument of I need foals for my income!

I will say that a HIGHLY untapped market for mini breeders is the carriage arena! So many breeders aim for the breed ring that other areas are ignored, and they just end up selling in a circle to other breeders and exhibitors. If you want to put value on your horses that are not "halter quality", get them to DO something! Some of the most athletic minis are being shown in ADS-recognized Pleasure shows and Combined Driving Events.

Myrna (who took a mini that the previous owner wanted to give away, and made him a 3X VSE Champion)

 

[Tab]

During my involvement in minis I have heard again and again that 50 is a small herd. ???

As a part of not solving the problem being part of the problem? No. People need to take personal responsibility for their own actions. I have enough on my own plate with a family, a large extended family, and my herd of 7. If someone decided to breed 10+ a year indiscriminately I am not going to be able to do anything about that.

If all goes well baby will make a herd of 8 here this year. That is after 13 years of involvement in miniature horses, only 3 of those involved in breeding. If I cannot sell a single foal I am happy to care properly for that foal, train it, and love it here. I will be satisfied to not breed for 6+ more years after next year.

Someone who has bred less than 5 foals in 10 years certainly will not have anything to do with an overpopulation problem. Especially if their horses are good quality. Also, what the heck is a backyard breeder? What qualifies someone NOT to be a backyard breeder? I have seen many "big" farms come and go leaving behind a large population of minis to sell at dispersal.

In closing, what do I have to say for someone who owns a herd of 50+? Nothing. It's up to them personally to decide what they should do. Will they continue to breed like crazy or pull the reins back. That is not up to me to decide.

 

[jegray21]

[quote

I will say that a HIGHLY untapped market for mini breeders is the carriage arena! So many breeders aim for the breed ring that other areas are ignored, and they just end up selling in a circle to other breeders and exhibitors. If you want to put value on your horses that are not "halter quality", get them to DO something! Some of the most athletic minis are being shown in ADS-recognized Pleasure shows and Combined Driving Events.

I think it would be nice to get more VSE in the ADS show. They truly are super athletic and to me very easy to train compared to many other breeds. I would think there has to be a market for these kind of minis...just have to keep going to the ads shows and proving that they are wonderful sport horses

 

[My2Minis]

A big problem with those bred-for-quality minis happens when they get older. I have two registered minis I bought on CL (worth much more in their youth) who as aged horses were sold for a few hundred. I like them as they are, but there not too many pet homes for the old well-bred minis who are a few homes down the line from the breeder who was breeding for quality.

So I don't think breeding high quality registered minis really is that much different from the backyard unregistered minis in the long run. Since horses live so long, an old quality mini with untransferred papers and a backyard bred mini are pretty much equally selling for a few hundred on CL or going through auction.

This is the state of the economy right now.