overpopulation

[Leeana]

Marty Today, 12:57 AM Post #14
We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.

Hi Marty,

What about those of us who truly just want to better their horses AND program? I to am one of the more picky ones about who i sell to and i do not over price my horses for that reason and my horses generally sell fast as i am honest in the horses i am selling and what i tell them the horse IS what the horse is when they come to pick it up or when it walks off the trailer at their farm. However, i (for the most part) do not buy every horse with intention of keeping it for ever and ever and ever. If you want to have a 'up to date' program and keep up with the horses that are out there winning in the show ring you do have to buy some and sell some and possibly do a little switching in and out until you get where you want to be. Is there anything wrong with that? I sure hope not. If that makes me a bad person because i want to better my horses and get to a certain point in my program, smack me on the wrist. So far, every horse i have sold i have remained in contact with the owner and have become pretty good friends with, same with all that i have purchased from. Its not about the money ..its just about bettering the show string i want to take out that year or that next year and the horses i want to produce.

 

[Jill]

Leeana --

Don't feel bad ever about "upgrading" your breeding stock. It's something EVERYONE who is serious about producing quality has done, and will continue to do. I made some tough choices a few years ago and the end result was I sold seven horses I loved (5 mares, 2 geldings) to make room for horses I could love AND put to good use with my new goals. The horses I sold went on to new homes where they are the special ones, very loved and appreciated. It was a win-win for everyone. I do think of the ones I have sold often, but don't regret any of the sales.

ALSO, I think you do a lot of work with your horses. The way I've felt, all the horses I've sold were better off for having passed through my hands. I'd think that you should feel the same.

Jill

 

[maestoso]

Perhaps my thoughts and opinions are based on my location, southern Maine, where I don't believe, at all, that the market is over saturated, nor do I believe that a reasonably priced pet is "easy" to get. What I consider pet quality, is an overall sound, healthy, and functional horse, with some minor conformational faults, perhaps cow hocked, maybe a short neck, or a long back, etc. Those horses around hear go anywhere from 8 or 9 hundred to 2,000. Once in a while you can find something for much cheaper, but not often. I think something around 1000 is a good pet price, but they are only available around here BECAUSE of the "backyard breeder". The horses that are selling for 300-500 are usually NOT sound, i.e., roach backs, stifle problems, etc, and that, I absolutely agree, is the result of irresponsible breeding, and those horses may be readily available, but that loving family looking for a functional pet DOESNT want something like that.

I guess I can see this topic slightly differently as I write this. If we look at minis in 3 categories, Show quality, pet quality(which as I stated, I consider pet quality sound and any faults are minor, still very functional) and unsound, at least around here, it is the unsound horses that overpopulate the market, and those are the horses that are hard to find a use for. Most people around here don't want a lawn ornament. They want something their small children can ride, or that the family can drive around, or they can show performance at the local shows, all things that unsound horses are not suited for, therefor they don't belong in these homes. Where do they belong? I don't know, as well cared for lawn ornaments I suppose but that's just not something that is in demand around here. And while those horses are plentiful, the reasonably priced, functional pet, is not! To answer a previous question, I consider somewhere around 800-1200 a reasonably priced pet. And the only way to meet the demand for that around here, is to breed for it. Because the "accident" foals, bred out of quality horses that dont reproduce the qualities, definitely do not meet the demand for the families who want pets.

I dont support breeding soundness problems, but I absolutely support breeding functional, sound pets, by responsible, and experienced owners.

If I lived within a market that the pets I described were readily available, perhaps my opinion would be different.

And before someone retorts, I dont think shipping a horse from across the country is always a viable option.

 

[Mini Mouse]

(quote)The average person who has any business owning horses can afford to pay the prices I've paid for my show quality horses, and the prices I plan to ask for my (hopefully show quality) foals. People who can only afford to pay a few hundred for a horse can't afford to really own one in my opinion.

Horse Hockie

 

[mininik]

Don't take what Jill said out of context, Mini Mouse. Reading your incomplete quote I was shocked also, but if you go back and re-read all of what she said you'll see that she is talking about people who literally cannot AFFORD a horse unless it's very cheap. More so than the purchase price, Jill is also referencing the quality of care such a home could AFFORD to provide the horse after purchase as we all know that purchasing a horse is the cheapest part of ownership. I have never paid more than $500.-1500. for a horse and took no offense to what was said due to the fact that I am secure in knowing what I can AFFORD to provide the horses in my care. (Hey, I'd love to own a Porsche, too, but I simply cannot AFFORD the cost of insurance or repairs... even if the car was free or very inexpensive!)

 

[Marty]

Hey Leanna I figured I'd get caught on the way I worded that part. My sentences were actually in reverse.That is not what I meant, sorry I confused you.

Not a thing wrong with buying and selling to upgrade if you are replacing your stock that's fine and wonderful, but should be done with respect to your sales horses welfare and future. Not just be in a hurry to unload them to anyone just so you can get on with your new plans. Upgrading is a good thing to the breeder and shower but the key to all selling is to sell with responsibility and give your present stock a good shot at a great new home.

 

[skanzler]

I have read this entire thread, as many others have.

IMO there is no reason to intentionally breed "pet quality" horses. There are plenty of horses out there for those that want a "pet". You don't see breeders in the large horses intentianlly breeding "pets". They produce these occassionally when a cross they chose did not produce what they wanted, or threw back to a conformation or quality that was not expected or wanted.

As many of the people on here have stated the only one that suffers is the horse, that is shuffled from place to place and could, not always, but could end up on a slaughter truck, or worse in some back pasture with overgrown feet, either overfed or underfed, neglected and forgotten. Yes it could happen to the best of horses. But most people that put a thousand or more into something is less likely to let that money go to waste.

Your opinion that this an elitist group striving to only have those horses that come with big price tags is sheer nonsense. Sure there are those out there that feel their horses are worth thousands. There will always be those type of people in any business venture. But there are many more of us that would love to see our programs produce some beautiful quality horses, to be sold to people to enjoy. Either in the pasture or out in the arena.

Breeding for future sales is a business, no matter if you are producing one or two, or 50-60 horses for sale. Any time you are making money it no longer is considered a "hobby". And you can bet Uncle Sam will want his fair share.

Yes the mini market is saturated. We all know it and we all have to deal with it. We have to make our own decision to breed or not to breed in a given year. If you had 20 babies last year and you still have 15 foals that have not sold... HMMMM maybe you better hold off breeding those mares for next year. If you had 20 babies and you sold all of them, then go for it.

Don't get mad at those of us that breed for the $15,000 horse (not mine, I wish). If there is someone that has that kind of money and wants to spend it, then more power to them. If someone walked up to me at a show and offered me that kind of money for one of my horses, I would not only be flattered, I would have the new lead rope and halter embroidered with the new owners name.....

Most of the time I sell my horses very reasonably, as I love to see them out there being loved and hopefully shown. But if someone wanted a horse just to enjoy I could probably find one that would foot the bill. Even if I do not have it on the ranch, I could direct them to someone that might. This is what the horse community is about. Working together to "better the breed" and to network the horses. Referring out to others.

 

[Jill]

Don't take what Jill said out of context, Mini Mouse. Reading your incomplete quote I was shocked also, but if you go back and re-read all of what she said you'll see that she is talking about people who literally cannot AFFORD a horse unless it's very cheap. More so than the purchase price, Jill is also referencing the quality of care such a home could AFFORD to provide the horse after purchase as we all know that purchasing a horse is the cheapest part of ownership. I have never paid more than $500.-1500. for a horse and took no offense to what was said due to the fact that I am secure in knowing what I can AFFORD to provide the horses in my care. (Hey, I'd love to own a Porsche, too, but I simply cannot AFFORD the cost of insurance or repairs... even if the car was free or very inexpensive!)

Thank you, Nicole. That is exactly what I said and meant to say -- that someone who can only afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a horse has no business owning one. Funny how that's very clear when my entire (though short) post is read, vs. a strategic snippet of it

 

[Leeana]

Also before anyone gets offended ...

I just wanted to add to Jills post that there is a huge difference between only being able to pay maybe $600 for a horse VR only wanting to pay $600 for a horse. Those are two very different things, did i just confuse anyone.

I agree with Jill, but like i said above there is a huge difference between only being able to pay $100-$600 for a horse VR only wanting to pay that amount.

 

[Marty]

I know exactly what Jill means; there are people who cannot afford to feed themselves and pay their bills much less take on a horse.

Then we have the kind of people that will pay all kinds of money for a horse, but you mention "call the vet" for whatever his problem is and by gosh they look at you like you are crazy. "Put money into the horse? You kidden, he cost enough already.........."

 

[nootka]

The problem is that people see a certain issue their own way, have their own solutions.

noone's saying the only pets available should be "rejects" or accidents, but truthfully, a nice quality type show horse makes an awesome pet, too.

Why shouldn't pet quality also be show quality?

No, they don't have to cost $5000, but then again, why does it have to be $200 to be affordable?

Like Jill said, horses are not something to be cutting corners on just to have one, because sooner or later, it's going to get expensive and those that are trying to be cheap about it will possibly cut corners on vet bills, wormer, hoof trims, vaccinations, feed, supplements etc. etc. and before you know it, that $200 horse needs thousands of dollars worth of rehabilitation.

My horses are fine to go to a pet home, and I will consider price adjustments, but I am not giving someone a break just because they feel like trying to get a discount on breeding horses for the sake of making more pets. GO TO AN AUCTION.

There are many pet quality there that NEED HOMES. They do need some extra TLC, but from what I've heard, there are many that are in ok health, just maybe need some training or attention.

Ask around, the horse already exists that needs a pet home. It's silly to breed more just for pets for the low priced, affordable market. There is an excess of them.

Many people for illness reasons sell out often and they have to sell them for low prices just because they cannot care for them physically...they may well be breeding quality, or even show quality. They are very affordable.

If you want to keep arguing that someone has to buy up pet quality and breed more pet quality, have at it, but you will not make money buying and selling these horses for a few hundred apiece, and if you are, I guarantee you're not feeding them enough.

L.

 

[Warpony]

Perhaps my thoughts and opinions are based on my location, southern Maine, where I don't believe, at all, that the market is over saturated, nor do I believe that a reasonably priced pet is "easy" to get. What I consider pet quality, is an overall sound, healthy, and functional horse, with some minor conformational faults, perhaps cow hocked, maybe a short neck, or a long back, etc. Those horses around hear go anywhere from 8 or 9 hundred to 2,000. Once in a while you can find something for much cheaper, but not often. I think something around 1000 is a good pet price, but they are only available around here BECAUSE of the "backyard breeder". The horses that are selling for 300-500 are usually NOT sound, i.e., roach backs, stifle problems, etc, and that, I absolutely agree, is the result of irresponsible breeding, and those horses may be readily available, but that loving family looking for a functional pet DOESNT want something like that.

I think to a certain extent your location may then be a part of the reason why my opinion differs from yours. The market where I am is no where near like that.

I paid $300 for my gelding, and $350 for my mare. Both are registered and sound. I looked at over 10 horses in my area in the $200 to $500 price range. These were horses with papers, several of them with training. Most of them were sound and young and had no faults that were likely to effect their soundness (one had post legs in back and stifle issues, but otherwise they were all nice little useful horses that just wouldn't make it in the show ring at high levels. A couple of them had shown at a local level and done well.

I also looked at a colt who was easily show quality, from parents who had done VERY well in the show ring (far beyond local shows) and was double registered and started in harness for $800... the only reason I did not buy him is because I will NOT ever show, I am a pet home ONLY and he deserved a chance to shine in the show ring.

Just over a year ago at our local auction a truck load of 20 to 25 mini weanlings with papers, all very small, most fairly correct (again, pet quality but nice useful pet quality), went for an average price of $30 each. High seller was $50. My neighbor told me about it since I was not there, and I called my ex husbands cousin who works there to confirm it.

 

[nightflight]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for this topic!

I find your ideas on reasonable pets and reasonable prices to be very…reasonable.

...And while those horses are plentiful [unsound horses], the reasonably priced, functional pet, is not! To answer a previous question, I consider somewhere around 800-1200 a reasonably priced pet.

Just tossing this out there, but perhaps why there are not so many breeders for what you are wanting in that price range is because, for a breeder, it’s a very difficult place to be. Even though they are not showy show horses, sound functional horses still do not happen by accident. They take some skill to produce. In the 800-1200 range you could likely cover your expenses – if nothing bad happens. One big vet bill, old building, or act of God and you’ve got to make one of two choices…

1) Pour money into the pit and keep loosing money until you are broke.

2) Cut corners.

The first case could explain the lack of breeders – they just don’t last that long. The second case – probably a lot of the breeders of unsound horses you see got started that way. They didn’t set out to breed unsound, they just ended up there.

What you seem to be describing is what any SEK (thanks rabbit) would call a good, useful horse. I think the frustration level alone - fighting for the pet market with the SUINAs would send most SEKs running for the hills. It's not like the SUINAs wave a flag and say, "I'm SUINA"! They want to "educate" buyers so they can sell horses too.

--> Using the word "unsound" here to describe a poor quality pet, unregistered, etc... see first post on the topic.

 

[Katiean]

Why do we assume that if you didn't pay a lot for a horse or there is nothing in the pedigree with a show record and someone has a mare and stud and want to breed they will surly breed junk and are damaging the breed. I saw this with the Standard Size Rex with the fur industry. If you didn't pay $1,000 for a doe and $1,500 for a buck you were breeding junk. The people with these rabbits were very angry when they found out that we had just as high of fur quality as they did. dollar amount does not equal quality.

 

[nootka]

dollar amount does not equal quality.

It always seems to come to this. Noone said it did, and the point isn't what the horse cost.

Typically, though, a low-quality horse will bring a low-dollar price. Not always, and the reverse may sometimes be true.

What makes a horse low or mediocre quality isn't how much it cost, it is what goes into the horse: good breeding, proper record keeping of registration papers, and care and feeding (not necessarily in that order, but those things add to the value of a horse). When you have low quality, it usually means the only criteria for breeding was the fact tha tsomeone thought they would "have a little fun/make a little money" as in they did not fully evaluate their stock before deciding to pair them. Heck, they may even be half siblings or full siblings, (yes, I've seen this) but they have a matched set, so why not have a foal and make some moolah!

they rarely keep the papers current (they may have a boxful of excuses why, but typically, it's because of money and/or effort involved or because they can't follow the rules required to register their stock), and then they don't put the care and training into the foal to make it worth more.

Honestly, I would be willing to bet that some of those $30 animals previously mentioned at an auction, if they were purchased and fed, groomed, vetted, etc. and trained to some degree, would be every bit as worthy of Matt Drown's reasonable price tag for a pet. Certainly cheaper to buy a $30 horse than to breed a mare and stallion, feed the mare for the next 11 months, then vet and feed both mare and foal, get it to the age where it's weanable for sale. You would make more off of the auction horse, and you could likely choose your gender and color (and height and soundness level), something you don't get to do with a foal you potentially breed. All of those things are a tossup. Maybe it comes down to simple gambling? People love to gamble, that's a fact.

It is a factor for me, the excitement of not knowing what will come out in the toss of the dice, but certainly not enough to keep me from considering the long-term effects of my actions.

Around here, it's hard to get $1500 for a high quality gelding, even one that is showable and very sound.

I have never sold a horse I have bred for $5000, for the record, but I have sold a few for pet prices, and even given some away for pet purposes. On average, though, I would guess I get around $2000 per foal I've raised. Not bad, but not top dollar by any stretch and fairly close to Matt's reasonable price again. Most of them for that price are well-cared for from conception and before, and they are trained, they are cared for and vaccinated, trimmed to enhance their quality of life and make them a potentially better investment than something someone would find at auction (where you don't know HOW they have been cared for, or if, let alone trained).

Breeding just for pets just doesn't make sense, when all that is required is soundness. I know there are scores of sound pet suitable miniatures with and without papers that would be available quite easily, rather than rounding up all these mediocre horses with the sole intention of making more pets. Even with shipping, they would be cheaper than making more foals.

Off my soapbox and off to switch the generator over so we can all watch some tv and run the 'fridge.

Liz

 

[maestoso]

As I said before, I am willing to box my opinion to my location, where there are certainly not scores of sound pets at reasonable prices. Again, I think that shipping is not always an option. If shipping were as easy as just saying "look elsewhere and pay for shipping" then perhaps a lot more people would ship, and there would be a better balance, and by that I mean, in areas where sound reasonably priced pets are not plentiful, people could ship from places where they were over populated.....

Maybe I am paranoid, but I would probably not buy a horse from far away and ship it, unless I could go get it myself, or the seller was delivering it themselves. I know people who have, and they have fantastic horses, which they DID get for reasonable prices, but it isn't for me and here's why....

Commercial shipping prices, are a lot of time ridiculous, and in these cases, unless the horses is practically free, the cost of shipping isn't worth it.

Lot's of things can happen to a horse in a long trailer ride, and to find a shipper that has insurance that would cover every possible accident is hard, not to mention many shippers don't know a thing about horse care, they just know how to drive their truck.

What disease is the horse bringing home with it?

What didn't the seller tell me? Which I couldn't see for myself because the horse was to far away to see in person?

Am I actually getting what was sold to me?

I guess shipping could be a whole other thread, and perhaps, for the right horse, and with the right shipper, my opinion on this topic could be swayed, but for now, commercial shipping, and buying a horse sight unseen, even with decent pictures, makes me nervous.

 

[luvmycritters]

OH!

Before you flame , yes fish count too! But people overpopulate dogs and they end up in the pound because "the kids wanted to see the miracle of birth" Rubbish! And cats too and duh, guess what it's nearly that way with mini horses..
How many of the new owners start by buying a Mare/stallion or 3 in one pkg?! Why, only one reason , they see $$ in their eyes.

Yup, that was me, though I do love all animals - I do admitt, I saw $ signs big time. I was told " the little ones go for much more then the full sized horses - but dont repeat that..!'' Nest came two mares - one registered, twenty something, one unregistered "b" sized mare. And lastly, a little registered stallion. I honestly dont remember what I paid for the three package deal, was it fifteen hundred - that is what I want to say...No price was ever set on any of the individuals, that was ok with me - never gave it a thought. Anyway, what an eye opening thread for sure...

IMO there is no reason to intentionally breed "pet quality" horses. There are plenty of horses out there for those that want a "pet". You don't see breeders in the large horses intentianlly breeding "pets". They produce these occassionally when a cross they chose did not produce what they wanted, or threw back to a conformation or quality that was not expected or wanted.As many of the people on here have stated the only one that suffers is the horse, that is shuffled from place to place and could, not always, but could end up on a slaughter truck, or worse in some back pasture with overgrown feet, either overfed or underfed, neglected and forgotten.

 

[Jill]

Why do we assume that if you didn't pay a lot for a horse or there is nothing in the pedigree with a show record and someone has a mare and stud and want to breed they will surly breed junk and are damaging the breed.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not assume that at all. There are quality horses that were purchased for a song and there are horses I wouldn't have eating my hay that may have cost 5 figures. Maybe some people could confuse (my) being proud of show results and bloodlines as blindness to quality without those things, but that would be a mistake.

 

[Jill]

Matt --

I would not try to convince you or anyone to purchase horses from a distance if you are not comfortable with the idea. I was not always comfortable with it, either. I bought my first long distance horse in 2001 and the willingness to look outside my immediate geographic area has really been crucial for me in building the herd I want to own.

Jill

-------------------------

Commercial shipping prices, are a lot of time ridiculous, and in these cases, unless the horses is practically free, the cost of shipping isn't worth it. I have actually always found the rates to be reasonable when I've had horses hauled to me. In October, Sharrway brought two foals to me 1,000 miles for only $600.

Lot's of things can happen to a horse in a long trailer ride, and to find a shipper that has insurance that would cover every possible accident is hard, not to mention many shippers don't know a thing about horse care, they just know how to drive their truck. Never had anything bad happen while the horse was in transit. I've had ten (10) hauled to me including foals w/o any problems to date.

What disease is the horse bringing home with it? None

What didn't the seller tell me? Which I couldn't see for myself because the horse was to far away to see in person? I'm fairly picky with my horses and I have not ever been upset with what I saw step off the trailer. I deal with reputable people, ask a lot of questions, get a lot of pictures (and sometimes video). Each time so far, when I have met the horse in person, I haven't been able to wipe the smile off my face. I've been pleased each time.

Am I actually getting what was sold to me? I have, ten times over now... And I've got a few bought and to come to me next year. It may sound a little goofy, but I do love the feeling knowing there are some nice horses on the way to me. It's a happy feeling

 

[backwoodsnanny]

Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regualr trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that heve 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.