Question for QH people..pic attached.

[RockRiverTiff]

I'm with Margo - I don't think you started anything but a good coversation Parmela. I don't see any post on here with a point that I disagree with, and even if Nathan and I disagree on whether genetics or conditioning are playing more of a role in the "bovine" look, we both agree that it's not good for the breed. The extreme World level QHs may be the most advertised/visible, but I think Quarter Horses remain one of the most popular breeds in the world because of the sensibility and usability of the type that you are still seeing outside of the showring.

 

[Jill]

There are a lot of things done to show animals that I don't think are in the best interest of the animal. Sometimes it is way to extreme, imo.

But, as an example of what I think is "okay", I've always felt that when people are "outraged" about razoring, they don't have a very broad perspective...

Everyone has their own ideas and their own moral meter, but for the horses, I kind of think: If I had to do _________, _______, and _________ and in exchange, had my every need met and got to spend 90%+ plus of every day doing nothing that I didn't want to do, would I feel lucky? Razoring, exercising in a sweat, lunging, and quite a few other items pass that test for me.

 

[circlesinthesand]

The extreme World level QHs may be the most advertised/visible, but I think Quarter Horses remain one of the most popular breeds in the world because of the sensibility and usability of the type that you are still seeing outside of the showring.

This is what our breeding program was always based on, making a usuable horse regardless of the show ring's 'flavor of the week' We've always took an unusual stance in making the all around horse vs the specialized horse that is so increasing popular these days. People look at our breeding and it's a little bit all over the place, lol We've got old foundation, mixed with race mixed with heavy modern cutting lines mixed with some of the more modern reining lines. The 2 best horses on the place are my gelding and my dad's young filly. My gelding is the product of 4 generations of mares we owned and raised. His gr grand dam was my childhood horse a Top Deck X a Blackburn daughter who was inspected mare (her registration number was really really low!) His grand dam was more old style running blood (who I showed all around, but she started as a WP futurity horse) then we brought her back to a King ranch bred stud to get his dam, then because we were still heavy on running blood but wanted to maintain it we brought her back to a Doc's Sug X Tuffernhel/Skipper W sire to get the best horse I've ever had the honor to own. My dad tries to trade him with every one of his horses, heck he's even offered up 2 for him but he's mine and he's not going anywhere. He is a beautiful mix of cow and running with no repeats on his papers til you get way way way back there (IOW, no line breeding.) He's extremely talented. Quick, catty, cow sense, calm, but game and ready to go do whatever I want.

My dad's filly is a daughter of our second oldest mare, heavily cutting bred mare a Peppy San X Doc Bar/Leo mare and a mostly all running bred Dash for CashxTop Deck/Cactus King sire. She's soft, supple, awesome attitude, not started on cows yet but if she's anything like I think she will be I'm not at all worried. Her only fault is she's a bit too tall for me My dad doesn't mind but I'm short, I like mine under 15.1h

All our younger horses are nicely mixed running x cow bred. It works for us.

They're not specialized breeding, they're the 'best of' bloodlines with the right look, attitude and ability. We wanted our horses to still have the cow sense, the athletic ability to rein and the calm trainability to do ranch work and at the end of the day still be able to handled by kids, so we bred that goal.

QH's used to be versatility horses, but now it's all about specializing and you loose hardiness when you breed too much for specific traits. You see those cows of halter horses or you see reiners with tiny legs and feet or you see cutting horses with big ole honking heads or running horses with flighty attitudes...but the thing is...The QH is supposed to have it all!!! Looks, ability and attitude

I believe that this is the reason Ranch Versatility and Stock horse associations are becoming so popular. They value the working horse regardless of breeding, horses who can do it all. People generally enter all the events they can @ our local association. The shows themselves are really alot more like what your old QH shows used to be!! We have had so much fun @ them and it's more like family than extreme competitors out to make a buck at all costs. The last AQHA shows I went to, people were putting glass in other horse's feed and sticking them with needles to make their necks stiff....just not my kind of thing....

 

 

[Marty]

Here I go dating myself again but back in the day, we had one horse for everything: I'd go in halter, western classes, run out for a tack change for english, hit a few jumps, and if we still felt like it, run a barrel for the heck of it and then go trail riding all week.. That's when quarter horses were built to do it all easily and willingly and loved it. They didn't go lame and act insane, nor were they 17 hh and they were also your best friend that you spent serious training time with. Not these fly by nights who supposidly produce 30 day wonders. Bah!

Then somewhere along the line it changed. Everyone went to one horse for every class. No more "do it all" horses.

I never could figure out why anyone would have a "lead 'em and feed 'em" halter horse if they couldn't get out of their own way. Form = Function in my old world. You had to have the conformation to move.

In my humble opinon, I wouldn't have that horse in the picture if it were given to me on a silver platter.

 

[little lady]

Excellent topic!! I come from the quarter horse/paint horse world and this is one of the main reasons I left.I was trying to raise an all around horse-one that could win in the halter classes and turn around and win in performance classes, it was a losing proposition. It has gone to the extreme and the health and comfort of the horse is deemed unimportant for the sake of a win. HYPP plays a role in some of the muscling with less "work" the horses show more definition of muscle which is what the halter horses need to win.(That and to be tall) Unfortunely the combination of these usually lead to the breakdown of their feet and legs. I certainly hope as responsible miniature horse showers and breeders we can use this as an example of why doing something to an extreme is not good.

 

[bcody]

I have two quarter horses. One is an appendix, he is big (15.3) but the sweetest, most easy going guy around. The other is foundation, short and stocky. She can work all day, chase a cow, run a pattern do some obstacles or ring work. She is awesome, my 9 year old daught rides her. Both horses are light and responsive. If I wanted a third like them, it would be hard to find out here in cutting territory. It is a shame what has happened to them, and other breeds. They keep HYPP for muscles, HERDA is in the cutting lines, they say a carrier has more flexibility, so that's OK? I love my horses, love what they represent of the breed, but am disgusted by wht is allowed to happen for money. And it is happening in so many breeds. Look at Morgans and Arabs.

I agree, excellant topic, not 'starting something.'

 

[Flying minis]

I call them "sausages on toothpicks" - those QHs with huge bodies and thin legs and tiny hooves. . .

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I certainly hope as responsible miniature horse showers and breeders we can use this as an example of why doing something to an extreme is not good.

I guess this is the biggest thing for me too. It would be interesting to have a discussion on minis and what, if anything, folks are seeing that concern them for the future. Keeping this type of evolution in mind.

Thanks for all the responses. I've learned a lot from this thread. I'm not very hands-on familiar with QHs, but I still learned a lot.

 

[ardie&sparki]

My sister purchased a 2 year old mare from the AQHA world sale last year and has been showing her this year as a 3 year old. I have learned quite a bit through the horses we've seen at shows as well as those her trainer works with. Not everyone of these horses turns into nothing after their halter careers. There are many that turn into sound rope horses and barrel horses after they have weight taken off of them. Every trainer is different, some more extensive than others as with all breeds. Many of them give the discipline a bad name, however this is not always the case. My sister plans on doing halter for this year and then turning her into a riding horse in English or possibly for barrels depending on what direction she is going better in. She is very sound, athletic and gets regular turnout in addition to her fitting. Her legs are not small at all. She is a pocket pony as well, it's all in how she has been treated though. A lot of the time, with any breed, the animals are more machines than anything. Her sweating consists of being ponyed for fifteen minutes, which I do not consider "extensive" since I ride my horse for longer than that. Though again, all trainers have their different programs.

As people have stated before, it's not just the QH's that are having these issues. Look at all the breeds, you're bound to find something you will disagree with. We've shaped them into what we want.

 

[Norah]

I have a 29 year old QH , and she is out of Sugar Bar .... ( or something like that ) she is living in USA with my ex , very happy and loved , she is 1 /2 that size and still quite robust ... I guess we all agree that the poor horse has been over enhanced to a disgraceful degree. 2 things. Instantly poped out to me as I saw her photo .... That horse is sick , and that horse is feeling pain. Look at the eyes , if you pumped up a human like that , I am sure his liver would be overworked . I feel very sorry for the horse , I think it would be happier dead then pumped up like that by a person with its head hurried so deep in sand that she can't see pain , and sadness on her own horse .

 

[ozymandias]

 

[HGFarm]

I have to agree- looks like a 'halter horse' to me. I pretty much got out of the bigger breeds when this got so ridiculous- these horses have feet and leg problems- too much weight on tiny feet because that is the 'fad'. I have seen it with the QH, Appies, Paints and so on... youngsters that are so overfed, over worked and steroided up to look like body builders. I like a good performance 'do it all' horse and most of these hefty halter types couldn't walk their way out of a wet paper bag. I have no use for any of them. I dont know why 'man' thought it was an improvement over what previous generations had- a horse that could halter, perform, work cattle, race, jump, etc... To be a good example of the breed, horses need to be able to hold up and stay sound with use- and many of these halter horses cant even stay sound without being worked for simple riding. Its sad. QH's were originally a good horse for working cattle- quick on their feet, agile and sound to work all day. Can you imagine any of these horses trying to do that?!! I am VERY disillusioned to see the Minis have started to also have a 'halter type' and a 'performance type'.

 

[ozymandias]

I can't imagine the physical and psychological damage done to an animal designed to move 20 to 40 miles a day that's kept in a stall 24/7

So sad.

 

[REO]

I was a fan of the QH beginning back in the mid-50s--only about 14 years after the AQHA was formed--and words cannot adequately express how sick and sad it makes me to see what has been done to the breed.

The first horse I ever bred, foaled in '57, was out of a 'grade' QH mare (who could have herself been registered, but my parents weren't willing to come up w/$200 for their 15 YO horse-nut of a kid...with research, I discovered the 14 h.1/2" mare's amazing bloodlines)...and sired by a blue roan grandson of King P-234(who I am aware, is now 'suspect' in the incidence of HERDA, via Zantanon, his(supposed)sire.) The resulting strawberry roan filly foal grew up to be a horseman's dream of conformation, correctness, and athleticism.She was first registered in the 'old' AQHA Appendix(as it existed then; its requirements have changed several times over the years); then when she was 3,those requirements indeed changed, and she ended up Permanent registered as "Misty Question".

I continued to own and ride QHs until I began owning Paints in the early '70s. I'd always loved the patterning, and yes, APHA horses were 'simply' colored QHs. IMO, the AQHA was foolish to START WITH to disallow horses w/ paint markings. I mean, how 'hidebound' can you BE?? Given the times, I'm not at all surprised that they were forced to 'give up' their meritless prejudices against paint/pinto spotting!I quit the AQHA/APHA show ring about 25 years ago when 'peanut rolling' became popular...no way in Heck was I going to make a horse 'go' like a whipped dog. I was 'there' when the NRHA was BEGUN, and did a bit of that back when, as I was ALWAYS an 'all-around' horse lover...not interested in a different horse for every event.

For a time I worked at QH shows in this area, but quit when I couldn't STAND that I could PASS a horse TROTTING in the arena in a show while strolling down the aisle...the snail-like gaits, not to mention the 4 beating 'lope' and the pitiful, sad, 'beaten' look of the horses...what about THAT is a "PLEASURE" to horse OR rider???(and, it has only gotten WORSE; the head may be a tiny bit higher again, but the way the horses are made to travel....STILL PITIFUL...)

That was years ago. I haven't let myself go to a stock horse breed show in years, but have seen enough during reading, and watching TV, in recent times to be utterly HORRIFIED at how much WORSE things have become. 'Halter' horses look like beef being readied for slaughter, and would be 'useful' about only FOR that; they can't MOVE!Certain 'performance' events are now SO 'patterned', and the horses clearly intimidated into a FEAR of EVER raising their head even the slightest...that the horse is afraid to simply walk forward.

To me, what is saddest, sickest of ALL, is that this was done as a CONSCIOUS choice by many breeders and trainers. What has been done to a once-noble breed(and I know, the QH is NOT the only breed this has happened to)is the worst example I can think of to prove that you should be careful what you 'try' for; you may get it.

Let me add...thank goodness, the performance-event breeders,such as those that like cutting horses, roping horses, 'real' multi-skilled horses, still produce many that are 'recognizable' more-like-original, QHs...smaller, quicker, actually athletic, and with that unbeatable disposition the 'real' QH was largely known for. They have FEET that can actually support their body size, they aren't 'muscle-bound', they have brains. NOW, if they would just let them mature before asking so much of them, if they would not mistreat them under the guise of 'training'.....well, you get my drift.

I will ALWAYS love a horse that personifies what the QH was 'supposed' to be.

(Look at one of the 'better' photos of Peter McCue, Old Fred, Oklahoma Star, just for a few examples.)NO post-straight pasterns/hocks, teeny feet, over-bulked 'meat animals' there. HOW CAN HUMANS BE SO STUPID??????

Margo

:FirstPrize DITTO!!!!!!!

 

[MindyLee]

OH MY! That meat would scare me to eat... pumped full of who knows what! NOT RIGHT!!!

 

[wildoak]

Agree with Marty, as kids we had ONE horse that did it all - rode bareback all week, cleaned up and slung a saddle on for the weekend and showed multiple events. We truly enjoyed our horses, they weren't such investments that we were afraid to ride them all day.

This is the last big one we have raised - not like what I rode, but boy she's athletic and she can move! She's a Last Detail daughter (aqha sire) out of an apha mare.

Jan

 

[chandab]

OH MY! That meat would scare me to eat... pumped full of who knows what! NOT RIGHT!!!

Its not pumped full of anything, but it is a specific breed, the Belgian Blue, and they have double muscling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Blue

But, they are definitely freaky to look at. [There were other websites listed when I googled, so I just took the first.]

 

[Aristocratic Minis]

Back in the day, I rode and showed QH's. Before I had a registered QH, we had "cow ponies" and ranch horses which came from working ranches. The horses were bred and raised to be versatile horses to do all sorts of ranch work. They had naturally low set heads to better look at cows and had slow easy gaits for working all day on a ranch. If needed, they could burst into a fast dash to catch up with a loose calf.

My first registered QH came from the King Ranch and was sired by Hired Hand II, who was by Hired Hand, who was by Old Sorrell. In those days Poco Bueno was big news as was Wimpy and Doc Bar. Mr. Waggoner who lived in Vernon and Ft. Worth was certainly an influential breeder

Back then the heads were smaller and the ears were set high and were smaller. The height was 14.2 to 15.2 generally. The hindquarters were very muscular but not overdone.

Nowadays, the halter horses can barely walk from being muscle-bound and could certainly not do any ranch work at all. The peanut rollers of today have often been forced to have the low head set while the early QH's had a natural low headset. Horses are taller and many have a big ole ugly honkin' head unlike the pleasant heads of long ago.

Like all breeds of horses, cattle, dogs and any animals which are competitively shown, changes occur over the years. Most of these involve "extremes" which cannot always be a good thing.

 

[Sue_C.]

I am VERY disillusioned to see the Minis have started to also have a 'halter type' and a 'performance type'.

Ditto. Give me a well put up horse, with something behind that head and neck to work with...oh...and to have "something" IN that pretty head is always a good thing. LOL!