Question on checks for driving

[horsefeather]

This is a something I have been wondering and maybe someone can enlighten me on the subject.

I have, and do, drive country and pleasure. I know what the 'difference' is supposed to be. However, it's very obvious when horses are placed in the country class, many of the judges apparently don't know the difference. Now, the rules states "Overchecks and side checks should be slightly loose, not snug." I realize everyone has their own opinions on 'slightly loose, not snug' but I have seen lots of horses placed 1st with a very tight (again, IMO)

check. Lots of folks are saying that country driving horses that are placing are pleasure horses that don't quite make it in that class. I have to agree. Why are checks required? Is it to keep the horse from bucking harder with his head down? (wouldn't consider this a country horse). Or is it to keep one from running away? (again, wouldn't consider this a country horse either.) This year I have seen many horses 'blow' because of a too tight check!

Seems to me, for those who truly don't want to 'use' anything to get the high step, or the stiff legged strut, it would be nice to have a class that is truly for country pleasure horses. (I know, lots will say....breed for the step, but lets face it, not many do, takes way too long.)

One that you could drive down the road, get out and chat with a neighbor, get the mail, etc. I would like to see the country horses without checks and headers (except in youth classes where headers are required.) If it's really a country horse, one shouldn't need a header. I know this will never happen, but think it's a real shame. I would venture to say that of all the 'country' horses I have seen this year and last year, maybe 2% were truly nice, calm, easy going horses who I would trust for country driving. Several were placed at Nationals in the top 3 that wouldn't or couldn't even stand still in the line up and weren't very good at backing.

Sorry, got a little off topic. Question is: Why is it a safety issue when not using checks?

Pam

P.S. Please don't say this is 'sour grapes.' Yes, I drove in Pleasure driving, but didn't expect to do very good and actually did place in the top 10.

 

[disneyhorse]

I sort of agree with some of this....

Country horses shouldn't need headers. A good country horse will have close to perfect manners and the ability to stand quietly for a good deal of time.

However, I think checks should be required... I am of the "old school" driving and think checks are there for safety... although horses can go just fine without them... I like them because they have a VEHICLE behind them and I just don't trust ANY horse... I have seen "trustworthy" horses that, at age 23 with NEVER doing anything wrong... get spooked and injure someone. It happens.

When properly fitted and on a horse that is conditioned properly to wear it, a check rein should cause the horse NO discomfort or hinderance, so I think horses SHOULD wear them. I don't mind seeing a pleasure horse with a "snug" check, but those country pleasure horses SHOULD have a "loosely fitted" check... just like it says in the AMHR rulebook now.

I think at Nationals particularly, the judges place horses in this order:

1. best front end action

2. best headset

3. overall appearance.

not much else goes into the decision....

Just my opinions!

Andrea

 

[Voodoo]

I've heard that it was originally to keep a horse from grazing while driving down the trail. I personally drive without a check of anykind, but that is just my personal prefrence.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Nope, no "sour grapes" accusations here. I just got back from an ADS event this weekend and it was interesting to compare it to the breed show a couple weeks ago. I agree totally with you on the definition of a country pleasure horse, and it makes me very sad to see what happened to the Arabs happen to the minis (i.e. someone separates the classes to give a different or more natural kind of horse a chance, and it immediately becomes a sort of "lesser" class, not a different one. Horses who aren't quite good enough or are training for single beat out GOOD horses of a less flashy variety.

)

Anyway, in answer to your question there are maybe three reasons I can see to have a check on.

1) To keep a persistant horse from grazing, especially when being driven by a child.

2) Draft horses wear overchecks, and my guess is it is to keep them from dropping their heads below horizontal so their collars do not slide forward and out of place on their necks.

3) Possibly to prevent bucking, but I can tell you from personal experience

that if they want to they will, check or not! LOL. They just get more creative about it.

I too have seen several horses flip over in just the two shows I have attended since buying a mini, and both times it was obvious they felt totally trapped between the pressure of the tight check pulling them up, the martingale pulling them down, and the hands pulling backwards while the voice said forward. It was truly sad. I don't have a problem with a pleasure horse being checked up, but everyone needs to remember the lesson of Black Beauty and take the horse's comfort and ability to work into consideration. Deep footing requires the ability to PULL, and pulling requires putting their heads down.

Ring driving is not trail driving, and allowances can and should be made for that artificial environment. But ya know, there's something strangely satisfying about taking off that dratted check and watching my dressage horse extend his neck, stretch his topline, sigh with relief and pick up a jaunty trail gait. There is no substitute for proper training!

Leia

 

[Margo_C-T]

In ADS sanctioned driving, overchecks are pretty much not allowed(though I*think*there are now a couple of specific situations where they would be allowed); they do permit sidechecks, but they aren't really common, as far as I can tell. If you have a horse that will bog its head and buck under harness, you probably should either be doing more basics, or should give up on that one as a driving prospect! I am very aware that ANY horse, no matter how "bombproof", can be spooked, and react in unexpected and possibly dangerous ways, so there may well be a valid point in the safety aspect of that-but a check certainly would NOT have to be TIGHT to work in that instance. All of my horses can be driven without any check, and I sometimes do drive without any--but I generally use a comfortably adjusted sidecheck, mostly to prevent the horse from constantly trying to reach down and snatch a bite! It does work pretty well for that... IMO, other than for these stated reasons, there is no real 'need' to use a check.

BTW, I pretty much agree with the analysis of the general state of judging-and with the often-observed difference between what 'should' constitute a genuine County Pleasure horse, and what has increasingly been being placed as such, in the miniature breed shows.....

 

[MiniHGal]

Hmmm...I don't see any reason, really, for checks while driving the minis. Now...the drafts, yes, because they get that head going down and you really can't stop them--especially with more than one horse in front of you.

I almost never use a check, and have never had a problem.

ADS permits the use of sidechecks at Training level...beyond that, your horse should be trained enough to not need it(whether it be "headset", grass, or ripping the reins out of your hand for whatever reason). Edited: yes, I think the Park class in Pleasure shows permits overchecks, to certain types of vehicles.

If you want a prevention for bucking, use a bucking or kicking strap. Easy, simple, can look elegant(with breeching), and usually the horse gets used to not being able to lift his butt up to buck(therefore allowing you to ease off of using it).

I will use a check if I have to(had a pony mare that LOVED grass, so that effectively removed the ability and she stopped quickly), but in general, no, checks do not have to be used(talking minis and adult drivers here), nor do they have to be tight.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Checkreins are not allowed in any sort of private driving class over here (this would be the closest to "country" we have) I have NEVER seen anything except a "ceremonial" checkrein on any draft harness- they were never used on working horses, I do know- In the full gear of the Lord Mayors Coach the white Shires do have a loose side rein-it does nothing though it is just for show. I think the way I have seen some of the checks adjusted at US shows would be tantamount to abuse over here and you would be prosecuted!! The Hackneys are reined quite tight- but not so tight they would rear against the bit as I have seen US horses do. I really think both societies need to sit back and take a hard look at what they are doing. If a horse needs a tight check, Blinders so close it can see nothing and a tight martingale (also never seen here) in order to get the action, it needs more training!!! It is ludicrous, in my eyes, to say that horse is a great harness horse- take all the tackle off and see what is left- it is just hype! Sorry, end of vent, taking my copy on Black Beauty and getting off soapbox now.

 

[MiLo Minis]

"Slightly loose not snug" - HAHA you could strum a tune on the majority of checks in the Country Pleasure classes at Nationals!!! I think the reason they use them so tight is sheer laziness and impatience. A properly trained horse that has been allowed to develop the muscles necessary to carry himself AND pull a cart with impulsion and without resistance does not NEED a check or a martingale. Unfortunately this takes several years of correct training and in this day of instant results (and also due in part to ignorance on some horse owners parts) having to wait years to get Champion results just isn't acceptable! The trainers know they can WIN NOW if they check the horses up and martingale them in and although it isn't a pretty sight they are being rewarded by the judges. I think the only way to correct this is to insist that the judges JUDGE PROPERLY. To say that it is a safety issue is ridiculous! There is more danger in the ring with horses that are uncomfortable and resistant due to being checked so tightly. In regards to the use of headers - I don't see a problem. They are only there in case of trouble and horses in a strange situation such as large horse shows with large crowds can sometimes react unpredictably - having a header available in case of trouble is not a bad thing.

 

[Sunraye Miniatures]

I slightly agree with you on some things. Country Pleasure horses I do think should be loosly snugged. However not having any at all I think could possibly be a saftey hazzard. It makes sure to keep the horse's head up without doing some unruly things they might think up. My country pleasure horse I have to keep it a little bit more snugged because he will eat anything thats in front of him.

I think if there is a good judge out there and sees that you have a header there just for saftey, not from yourself but the OTHER horses out there wouldn't knock you down. Header is for saftey reasons, nothin more. Yes a horse should stand quite in the line up, especially a country horse, but who knows what that horse next to you would do

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm not at all sure what exactly you are expecting to be in front of you that is edible in a show ring????? As has been stated a well trained horse (that is not hungry for grass) will not try any of these shenanigans. I harnessed Rabbit at a show last year to show someone how to put it on. Rabbit has never been harnessed in his life, but he and I know each other. He wore it all, blinders, the lot, even the bit. When I went to attach the over check (this was an American set) he said "NO you don't, " quite firmly, and made my case against them for me!! And this was as loose as we could get them!! They have never been used over here, not since "Black Beauty" hit the shelves- so how it can be a safety issue is completely beyond me. Sorry- it is LAZINESS nothing more. If you have a horse that truly needs it to keep it's head up I suggest you look closely at whether there is A) something seriously wrong with the horse or B) if the horse is suited to driving!! I for one am thoroughly sick of seeing these poor little trusting creatures with their heads strung up in the air and no ability to actually pull as a result- you try it sometime

 

[Fred]

Driving should be judged on 1. balance, 2. headset, and 3. overall picture. By balance I mean how the horse moves if he is balanced on the front and hind end! I would much rather have one and not need it than need it and not have it. If a

check rein is tight its not going to create signifigant motion in a horse. Last year people were complaining about long feet. If a horse has the ability long feet or a tight check is not going to make a difference. IMO. By the way my horses check has extensions because his neck is so long. Linda B As for the black mare that wouldn't stand in the lineup I can guarantee it wasn't the check but pilot error. My daughter was driving her and peeved her off. Linda B

 

[Minimor]

Like anything else in the show ring, it's not a matter of what is "needed", it's simply what is "accepted practice". I suppose a check rein is a safety issue--while there are horses that do not need a check because they are well enough trained that they won't try to put their heads down & play up with a few bucks (and yes, obviously there's nothing for a horse to try & eat in the show ring!), it is always quite possible that there is a novice driver/horse out there in the ring, and that horse/driver could very easily get into trouble if the horse decides to put his head down & buck...by having a rule that says a check rein must be used, it ensures that horses that do need a check have one on.

Unfortunately the perception of what is "snug" "tight" or "loose" will always vary from person to person. Like anything else in showing, not everyone will ever agree on any one thing. That is true of owners, trainers & judges.

Checking a horse up high will affect his action, just as length of toe will affect his action. Raising the head will raise the action a certain amount; higher heels will also cause some lift in the action, just as a long toe will make the horse fling his feet out to the front more..add some weighted shoes into the equation, as we do in Morgans, and you have a whole 'nother "look" again.

You may think that a good horse is a good horse, and if he's got good carriage & action naturally, that's all that is necessary in the show ring, but I just don't see it as being so. You can take an average horse, enhance it in any way you can, & it will often end up looking more impressive to the judges than the better-than-average horse that is shown natural, with no artificial enhancement. The differences may be smaller in the Mini, where fewer enhancement options are available; those differences become much more obvious in the breeds where weighted shoes, ginger, etc etc is allowed!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

You all appear to be pros on this thread and I probably shouldn't put my 2 cents in. But I think judges will often choose a horse that isn't quite up to single pleasure competition that is entered in a country class. And I think it is true, competitors are interested in getting their horses in the ring quickly, and not taking the time and training they would normally need. At shows I have been to, as a spectator, I have heard more than one entrant say that his horse had only been under harness for two weeks. Perhaps it was to show the versatility of the horse, but realistically, could a horse be trained to drive in a competition in two weeks?

Marsha

 

[justaboutgeese]

but realistically, could a horse be trained to drive in a competition in two weeks?Marsha

[

There are people that would have you believe it is a dark magical process to teach a horse to drive. Could it be done it two weeks ?? I think so. If you start with a horse that understands verbal commands to walk, trot, stand, and whoa. and is mature enough to work with atleast once a day or twice for the first few days. That being said I think a horse can continue to learn and gain experience after that but training a horse to drive in two weeks should not be looked upon as a feat. If I had a horse that was not ready to hook after a week (asuming it was of suitable age and condition) I would wonder why. Will this put the horse ready to enter a national event ? Well I do not know about national but many have gone into smaller shows and won with two weeks experience.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have, and I'm sure 'geese has, trained a horse to drive in half an hour!! Granted I bred him, he knew me and was a seasoned riding horse, with everything - reining, bitting etc- in place, but he went from standing looking at the cart to driving round the field in half an hour. Two days later he was out in traffic, a week later he went home!!

 

[Magic]

I could be wrong, but I do believe that a check rein is required when showing at AMHA and AMHR shows. So I use them. *shrug*

 

[MiniHGal]

However, Rabbitsfizz and geese....you know the horse, you can READ the horse....so many that try to 'train' do not. Under their training, I would be very, very wary of a horse that was trained to drive in '2 weeks'.

Also, many people get away with this simply because minis are minis--they are smaller and very trusting. Does that mean they are trained right? No, it just means they are nice horses.

Dan really only had a couple weeks on him when I drove him at the dressage festival....he was nervous, but he was paying attention and not even thinking of leaving or bucking. If he had...it probably would have manifested itself early--and if anything started to happen or it looked like it was too much for him, I was perfectly willing to just leave him at the trailer.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I understand fully what you are saying- no way would I buy as "cart trained" a horse with two weeks training- nor would I sell one as such with that sort of training, not however well I knew him. Oliver was not, however a mini, he was a half bred Arab!!!

 

[justaboutgeese]

We had a horse here in May that had never seen a harness before getting here. He went home infront of his own cart down the roads that same weekend.

 

[outlaw]

I was at nationals this year and competed in the Country Pleasure classes. I saw the judges placing pleasure horses in the top 10. I think that most people only use the check because it is required in AMHA/R shows. I also think that it is on as tight as possible and then 9 times out of 10 used with a martiangale because people do not know how to get their horses to use themselves by going round and so it is the quick fix. It is one of my big pet pv's with showing at the shows. It is very dissapointing that the judges do not see or know the differance. I guess in the end we are only paying for an opinon anyways so it really doesn't matter. Ok that is my 2 cents on the question.

outlaw