Question on checks for driving

[Fred]

I was at nationals too. I saw an awful lot of country horses in the pleasure classes!

Also the pleasure classes were more like roadster!. As for the checks and

martingales I will admit I did not pay attention to them. My horses do wear a

check and martingale but they are not tight! I have had people question if my

horses are artificially enhanced and I can most certainly say they are NOT! My

horses will go the same without check or martingale or any special trimming.

Being a farrier I can tell you MY horses are the last ones done and I'm not about

to do anything extra to them. I also noticed horses pinning that reared instead

of backing, I always thought that was a major no no. Linda B

 

[justaboutgeese]

I just had to go and check. I own a total of (I think) 19 harness sets. Only One has a martingale. Three sets of double harness have no checkstraps at all. One set of team harness has side checks. Given a choice I would drive without a check. Not much for a horse to chew on going down a road. I can see when they are stopped wanting to munch on whats in reach. That might pose a problem is they can reach for the first bite but have to take a step or two to get the second mouthful.

 

[Kim]

I think that tight checks and martingales are so prevalent in the show ring for two reasons. First, it takes a lot more time to train a horse that will move in a properly balanced frame without the use of a check and a martingale, and second, it is harder. A horse should be able to move properly and freely without a tight check or a martingale. Mine move the exact same without their checks and martingales as they do with them, but I use them anyway, adjusted loosely, (essentially for 'decorative' purposes, I guess) because checks are required, and martingales, in my opinion, give more of a showring look.

I have, however, had the luxury of being able to put a lot of time into my horses' training. I like to train mine to go in a proper, balanced, dressage frame without having to rely on aids. A lot of people, however, don't subscribe to this same methodology, either because they don't know what a proper frame is or how to train for it, or because they want to get a horse 'ready' to win as quickly as possible. This latter reason is especially prevalent among trainers, I think, because they have pressure from their clients to get a horse in the ring, winning, as soon as possible, otherwise the client will send the horse to someone who will. It's understandable, I guess, but unfortunate. I wish that there were more trainers who took the time to properly and thoroughly train a horse (or to learn how to if they don't know!)

I think that the associations really need to instruct judges better - get them placing horses that are trained properly, rather than ones that are all flash but no substance. Yes, there are many great judges, but in my experience, many more poor ones - every year we seem to get some total 'duds'. There are many, many carded judges that really do not have any idea of the basics of horsemanship, i.e. that properly trained horses should be in frame - move from behind, be balanced and collected, and have a nice headset to finish off the picture. Too many people think that as long as a horse's nose is tucked in and its front legs are reaching up and out, that that's all that matters and it doesn't need to have its hind end engaged or its back rounded. It's very frustrating!

 

[Margo_C-T]

--Kim!! VERY well stated, and very much on target! (I would, however, take a different view of a running martingale(see below).

I believe pretty much everyone who shows A/R knows that the breed registries require checks--so yes, if showing there, one has to use them...

And yes, if driving on a road, there is unlikely to be anything growing underfoot that is tempting to eat. However, it should be remembered that some of us deal with different driving conditions than others....here, the "country" roads have too many rocks(just the right size to cause stone bruising). Most of my "outside" driving is done along the highway right-of-way, and although the highway dep't. does mow occasionally(VERY occasionally!)-plants grow (gasp!), some of which are edible. Ergo, a comfortably adjusted side check IS a help, in this situation, to help prevent attempts to 'graze'. As for martingales-I ordered my first Lutke harness with one, as "everyone" seemed to use one. I found that they were of no benefit, and have not used one for years now. Recently, a friend, who owns a gelding SON of Rhotens Little Dandy, a horse that is a lovely, ground-covering mover, said she thought she'd get one, because she sees "everyone" using one...I just told her, "not everyone"-but, she will probably buy another harness, and get a running martingale, because she does not have enough confidence in herself or in this good horse(though he had NO non-arena experience, and has been a challenge to her in many ways, because he was one of those whose early "training" was to get him showing "yesterday" , as it is with so many...), that it isn't that gear that does the job, it is the genuine knowledge, understanding, and patience of the trainer.

And-although I understand the "accepted practice" explanation, I would respectfully suggest that just because a practice is "accepted" here or there, does NOT make it UNIVERSALLY accepted--nor necessarily a good practice. Breed shows, even if similar ones are taken all together, likely make up a minority portion of the much wider world of driving-i.e., what is acceptable in the UK(where there seems to be a LOT of interest in the driving of horses)-and even what is "accepted practice" within the American Driving Society. Breed shows,at least in the US, are pretty much about "roundy round" the ring( and that is what I did, for 20 years, mostly in the AMHA ring); thankfully, I have learned that there is MUCH more to driving than that!

I am in agreement with what MiniHGal said regarding having a horse driving in a couple of weeks. Possible? Yes, but with a number of caveats--and the knowledge and experience of the person doing the training have SO much to do with it-that's all I will say on the subject.

Are there breeds where gingering is actually allowed? If that is so, I find it....surprising.

 

[Tabitha]

Gingering....I suppose there is allowed.....and "allowed"....in the Morgan breed there is a rule against the use of ginger, but since there is no way to actually prove a horse has been gingered, Morgan show horses are gingered. If Saddlebreds & Hackneys have a rule against ginger, it's not enforced--never that I have seen anyway, at the shows I've been to the Saddlebred & Hackney exhibitors are completely open about their use of ginger.

Since no one has mentioned tongue ties, I'm assuming that they are not (widely) used in Miniatures? Not only are Morgans trained with tongue ties, they are shown with them (not saying all are, but there are plenty, especially in the US). Canada's rules changed just a couple years ago, so tongue ties are now allowed here too. It caused a real fuss back when the Canadian Championship Morgan show was held in Regina, and the US exhibitors arrived and only then learned that they would not be allowed to use their tongue ties in the ring. They were NOT pleased. The following year some exhibitors boycotted the show--if they couldn't use tongue ties, they refused to come.

I personally figure that if one must use a martingale, tongue tie & check to "train" a horse, then one should simply give up, but that's just my view of it.

I ordered a harness one time from a harness maker who is also a judge (carded in quite a number of breeds). I told him that I wanted a side check, not an overcheck, so then he was okay with not including a martingale. Had I ordered an overcheck, I'd have had to take the martingale, because he is a firm believer that with an overcheck you much have a martingale in order to be safe.

 

[Littleum]

I agree completly, Kim! I'm from a sport background, and all the over-cranked necks and trailing behinds and hollow backs bug me to no end. The level of education about basics is dismal. Nose cranked to chest and front legs flying all over the place is good enough for most everyone- including our judges.

It's so easy to push Minis... most have such good minds, and their small size reduces any physical risk or resistance. There is this expectation that they will be ready to drive in 90 days or less... I see a lot of minis that seem just fine with this. I see a lot who are clearly sore or look about ready to loose their poor little minds- or both.

What really annoys me, though, is some of the terribly behaved horses I've seen in the ring. In the past 2 years I've seen more then a few horses do some dang dangerous things- rearing, scrambling, swinging around in the line up, bouncing ect. Not have I NEVER seen a horse excused, I've also seen them get used in the ribbons like nothing had happened. That's at A shows- I've been told R judges are a less tolerant of that sort of thing.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I could be wrong, but I do believe that a check rein is required when showing at AMHA and AMHR shows.  So I use them.  *shrug*

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These societies belong, basically, to their members....if you really do not like something you get in there, and you get it changed. If the rules stated you had to crank the heads up to the point where the horses could not breathe- I do hope this would happen. So.......since the rules allow this to happen- change the rules!!!!

 

[horsefeather]

Oh rabbitsfizz, if it were only that easy! While I agree with you that the members SHOULD own these registries, unfortunately, as with life, we do not! Trying to get a rule changed is next to impossible!

Even our 'R' rulebook seems to change each year without the members knowledge!

And Littleum, I don't know who told you 'R' judges were less tolernant, 'fraid it's not true. We also see lots of horses acting up. When asked about the lineup 'bad' actors, we're told once the cards are in, it doesn't count. I can see that, but (and this is why I WOULD NOT make a good judge), the same horses come in time after time and I'm afraid I'd be really watching the 'bad' actors! I don't believe I have ever seen a judge dismiss someone from the ring, but I have actually seen some drivers dismiss themselves. And I thank them for thinking of other's safety (at least that's what I WANT to believe they are thinking

).

Pam

P.S. Wish we had some ADE driving around here, I think I'd like it much more than shows.

 

[willowoodstables]

Ok..

I too was at Nationals. I am from a driving background solely..very few halter classes under my 30+ year belt. I was a just a LITTLE dismayed at what I saw.(just pet peeves really)...in general I think some Driving IN a Show Ring Clinics would be beneficial.

1. Martingales..what a JOKE people. If they are not there for a specific reason GET RID OF THEM! Look at the little wee horse with 10 pounds of harness on him. Not a pretty picture, and not one of them tied back so as to prevent the rings from sliding forward on the lines and hooking on bit buckle (geesh). I did see some of the rubber stops on lines to help prevent this, but again asthetically a nice thin black/brown shoe lace tied to each ring and then run through the water hook would LOOK much better than big honkin' rubber stops. Again, these are little horses, THEY should be seen, not all the leather.

2. Nosebands .. OMG OMG OMG..some where so tightly buckled and LOW on a horses head it was a wonder they didn't "choke" themselves unable to breathe. AND the straps hanging out of keepers flapping around...

3. Loose Straps...Please hook your horse, have someone stand at his head and take 15 steps back. Anything hanging down or flapping? Get the black tape and tidy it up PLEASE.. It is very detracting and un-professional IMHO to see a nice horse hooked to a nice cart with nice harness and a nicely presented driver..then the WHOLE look is ruined by these gawd awful flapping swingin pieces of leather (and that includes your belly band straps..tape em up!)

4. Checks...geesh..All I can see is SOMEONE out there PLEASE find me a picture of a miniature in a show ring (not a victory pass) with it's ears FORWARD??? Probably not because the checks on too tight (along with the tight martingale from above which makes for very different signals) are IMHO only there as part of the "harness" not to keep the nose out of the dirt...

5. Reverse????? What is with spinning on the rail when reverse is called?? Especially when not ONE person ever did a shoulder check or moved their eyes off their horse's rump? Especially for safety in a class of 20+?????? What ever happened to reverse on the diagonal??? Someone mentioned for the sake of time reversing across the diagonal at the walk was too slow..well can't pleasure/country pleasure horses trot across the diagonal???

6. Ring Etiquette...eek..lots of near misses, near crashes and gneral mayhem. Read number 5 with the eyes GLUED to the horse's rump..not very many use their necks too look to see what is coming behind or up ahead.

Now..all that said (don't worry it is cold here so I can handle the heat)... the majority and I mean MAJORITY of the driving horses I witnessed were of TREMENDOUS quality and ABILITY ..I was very very pleased to see the caliber of driving horses at the Nationals..With some fine tuning (minor stuff really) the caliber of Horse, Driver, Harness, Cart and Performance will be second to none in any Breed ring.

Kim

 

[Sunny]

Feel better, Kimmy, now that you got that off your chest? LOL!!!!!

 

[Mnmini]

Kim,

I'm so with you on most of your suggestions. I too thought that the majority of driving horses were of good quality. There are always going to be pleasure horses mis-entered in the Country, and the reverse is true as well. However, the judges need to made to enforce the rules as written, cause obviously the exhibitors are not all going to. Why would they, when the judges routinely reward them for high headsets, both artificial (via check) and natural (just for the sake of argument here, I've not actually seen one that was natural, or was impossible to say if it was due to the tight check). If not the judges, then the steward, but somebody needs to be verifying that the horses entering the pen at Nationals (and at the weekend amhr/amha shows) are harnessed per the rules. At AQHA World show for example, you have an equipment judge that goes over your horse prior to entry into the ring.

Secondly, it is up to the association, and it's various show committees to educate the judges as to what they SHOULD be using for class ideals. If the judges aren't willing to judge per the association rules, they forfeit their card. Despite the wording of the rules for country pleasure, I have gone to an AMHR sanctioned driving clinic, with one of the industries top trainer/judges, and his description of the horses/class ideals was the same horse for park/pleasure/country with the pleasure horse allowed for fewer episodes of misbehavior than park, and country even less than pleasure. No mention of different movement, nor headset.

It's not that I have a problem with the high headset per se, but don't we already have a class for that "look?" I would imagine most of those ponies would be able to come down to a few inches above wither level, round their backs, and drive if given the opportunity via a loose check. If this is what we as association members perceive the class should be, then a rule change (which is too late for 2006 anyway) isn't required, though letters to the committee members prior to the fall convention probably should be written and mailed exressing our concerns.

 

[Shari]

The only thing I do now a days, is Drive at home. I use side checks loosely, but still tight enough Maggie can't get her wee neck down to eat grass.

When I start using the Fjord mare, she will get side checks too and used in the same manner.

When I worked Draft horses, ie like in the fields etc... we never use Overchecks.

Overchecks would not allow the horses to used their necks and shoulders they way they need to pull a load.

Depending on the Draft, we would sometimes use side checks, but in the same manner as I do them on Maggie's harness.

I just cringe at what I have seen at some of the R & A shows I have been too over the years. No way would I ever do, what some of those people do to their horses, to mine. I love mine to much for that.