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Wow, what a thread. If I wasn't worried before I certainly should be now. I had decided to breed my mare who is now 6 yr old and has been showing ever since she was a yearling. The advice I received from multiple breeders and trainers was if my mare was used to showing, I should keep her in show shape and continue to show her. Now with all theses horror stories and dos and don'ts I worry if I'm messing her up. I know breeding is not for the faint of heart - just hope I don't end up with ulcers.

I guess I'll just have to trust that she'll do as she has at the shows and give me 110%.

Sorry for your losses and really hope you find out the secret to getting healthy foals. If anyone has that secret please post here.
 
Holy cow!! I've foaled out about 30 mares and, knock on wood, have not lost one. You do more than I do I think. Marestare has been a god send!

I do check the milk pH and that has been awesome. Mare foals within 24 hours after pH reaches 6.0. We test with a drop of milk in a bottle cap. Once it reaches that point we park out and don't go anywhere.

However I have a maiden mare who strongly resists us touching her bag so this will not work this time. She's at day 340 and I am kinda worried.

I am so sorry for your losses. I cannot fathom the sorrow and would have given up a long time ago. I am very sad for you.

added: Have you considered having your mares foaled out somewhere else? There are people out there that won't charge an arm and a leg...
 
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Like Miniv, I doubt there is anything you are doing wrong, but maybe you are doing too much? It really sounds as if you have some kind(s)of enviornmental issue going on.

My first suggestion would be....seperate the breeding herd from any show horses if possible. And take care not to cross contaminate...clothing, shoes, tools etc. Also keep any horses coming and going from your farm vaccinated for rhino (and I do flu also) every 90 days as long as they are out in public. Any new horses which are to come to your farm must have had a rhino vaccination in the past 90 days and would be quarantined for 30 days after arrival at your farm. This pretty much eliminates your danger of spreading Rhino to your breeding herd.

Here, I have removed as much exposure to toxins as I can figure out how to do. No vaccinations after a mare is bred. No deworming after a mare is bred (do periodic fecal egg counts to monitor your parasite load). The exception to the deworming here is a late fall deworming with an ivermectin/praziquantal product.

No pesticdes, no herbicides, no fertilizers.

We had to remove 12 black walnut trees due to a chemical which they contain...actually all nut trees produce this and might be a problem.

Know what grows on your farm that the breeding herd is exposed to and know if these plants have the potential to be a problem.

You might want to check your pasture grass and your hay for nitrate levels. High nitrate levels can cause deformaties in developing fetuses and can cause death even in a full size mature horse.

Check that any supplements that you add to a comercial feed product are not going to throw off your vitamin/mineral balance. Talk with the manufacturer of your feed.

Begin by 200 days gestation checking mares for premature udder development which often means placentitis. (treatment is regumate till live foal is delivered, SMZs (for the length recommended by vet...I usually give 10 days per month) and banamine for a couple of days at the beginning of treatment)

Be aware that miniature mares may have a live healthy foal at 290 days so the mares should be observed closely starting 30 days prior.

It is unlikely that your stallion or mares are to blame for all of these issues.

Foals not getting out of the sack are usually the result of there not being a foaling attendant present.

I hope some of these suggestions help you. I know first hand how heartbreaking and frustrating issues like this can be.

Please share with us what you decide to do and what the outcome is. As hard as this is for you, you are helping us all to learn.

Charlotte
I'm so sorry that you and your mares and foals are going through this
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Great suggestions, Charlotte.

I'm just curious why you don't deworm during pregnancy? Safeguard and Ivermectin are perfectly safe to use on pregnant mares. I dewormed/deworm my mare throughout pregnancy (every 8 weeks) and also within 12 hours of birth. After buying a weanling that was full (and I mean FULL) of worms and quite sick, I would never not deworm.
 
One thing I forgot when talking about Rhino...Leptospirosis (Lepto) can cause abortion also and is carried by many mammals. I have seen better results in the way of answers by having an abortion panel done on any mare that aborts rather than necropsy of foal and membranes but it sure wouldn't hurt to do both. I have a paired serum sample done. 2 blood tests 2 weeks apart. I've never had a necropsy give any answers except for a foal with head trauma from it's dam being kicked.

And someone mentioned mare size. My smaller mares, 28 1/2 - 31" have been my best and most consistent foalers. My bigger mares have had more dystocias...for whatever reason.

There is just nothing to compare with the blessing of a healthy foaling. I hope you are able to experience those in the future.

Charlotte
 
Charlotte- Thanks for the suggestion of the blood tests on the mare; I may do that even though we will probably give up on Sox. The one fetus we did have necropsied (abortion at 9 months) where the vets were SURE it was Rhino, came back inconclusive. I hope they can at least tell me this time that the foal is premature. The fact that they had never seen one this small suggests I am right about that. This mare is about 32 1/2" tall, so not real small at all.
 
Sorry you're having such problems, but some years are just like that with breeding.

I've delivered upwards of 150+ foals in the past 12 years and have lost foals for various reasons - one to hip lock (1), twisted cord (2) dystocias, not getting out of the sac (2), died after birth, etc. I've delivered foals with a leg back, bad positioned dystocias, hip lock that have all done well. Some years it's text book perfect without a mishap and then we had one year that I was ready for a padded cell. I've found foals dead at 1-3 months that look like they're sleeping (no rolling, blood, bloating) and you just say what???? WHY? It happens.

We were boarding another breeders herd and her new purchases came in, including a filly with pneumonia. That went through our yearlings, and one died. I was foaling out her mares (back when I was naive and dumb), and we lost ten foals total that year from dystocias, a rhotovirus and the pneumonia. Really was ready to give up. I was ready to get rid of all and just keep a few pets. Literally post-foaling I didn't want to do anything with the horses I was so upset. It took awhile to get the joy back.

I know we repeat this every year, but breeding isn't for the faint of heart and you have to be prepared for the losses. With the problem deliveries, my goal is let the mare be okay and if the foal survives that's a bonus. We're fortunate to be 15 minutes from UCDavis, and they've had a number of 'fun' foalings here. Dog-sitting upside down presentation, mare with to small a pelvis (not mine and she was put down), mare C-sectioned foal had all the intestines on the outside of the body. This stuff happens and there is no rhyme or reason.

As for our 'normal'. We do de-worm on a rotation and de-worm mares (Ivermectin) after foaling. The ONLY vaccine I give (we don't show now), is EEE/WEE/Tetanus. Mares 30 days +/- before foaling, the rest between Jan-May. Back when I first got Minis I did all the vaccines, messed endlessly with feeds, hovered over the herd, etc. I've tried different strategies over the years, and see pretty much the same results. My non-scientific observations - mares with dams that had no issues (healthy, vigorous, good milk, easy foaling, etc.) seem to have daughter's with the same tendencies.

This year, no cameras - as in all my repacking of my life the transmitter is AWOL. But we have cameras and foal alert halters (which my mares tend to not set off when foaling only when sleeping). I've found many of my mares deliver laying like a cow up on their sternum, not flat out after the initial push, so the 'beeper' didn't go off.

I would be cautious on over-use of selenium unless you are sure it's necessary. Selenium amounts differ in horses and we use to give selenium shots/vit D, but my vet said it really wasn't necessary. I do have a couple of horse from one line that seem to need more. One was gelded and UCD remarked he needed it, his sister will lock up in back if she isn't given selenium too.

We feed alfalfa and our horses are on pasture 24/7. White, selenium and mineral salt blocks and clean water. I haven't grained horses in two years, but do know everyone's circumstances are different. Our pasture this year is keeping the horses butcher fat. I've had to worry about founder this year for the first time. They get alot of exercise up and down the hills (63 acres of up/down), which I think contributes to good muscle tone and easier delivery too.

But to answer your questions.

Q1. Should we give Rhino shots more often, especially during show season (we do show and can't really separate the show and non-show horses)?

We don't give Rhino. Closed herd and new horses are quarantined. Show horses should be kept separate and vaccinated for pneumonia/rhino, etc. If you can keep at least 25 feet between show and others that would help alot. If you're suspicious you have it in your herd get the vet out to test..

Q2. Guess we should always give the Pneumabort shots??? That seems to be a "Yes".

I won't give this. Vets say give it, but too many people have lost foals within a day or so of giving it, so we don't.

Q3. Should we use Regumate on all the mares?

I won't give Regumate. Personal view, but a healthy mare shouldn't need it IMHO. I won't buy a breeding mare that needs Regumate to carry a foal. It may be useful, but if a mare needs it, I tend to view that as a flaw. It's like thyroid meds. I won't knowingly buy a horse that requires medication.

Q4. Should we have every dead foal necropsied? Just found out yesterday how inexpensive and easy this is, and wish I had known when Max died. The lab at UConn charges LESS for a necropsy than we paid for burial (or than they charge for disposal). I think the answer here is YES.

Most necropsies will come back inconclusive, so a waste of $$ IMHO. By the time you find it, there will be contamination unless it dies in a sterile environment.

Q5. Should we change stallions/mares? We did re-home one mare that we couldn't get to settle after years of trying, but I would really hate to do this without specific reasons. The 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac were sired by different stallions. Our stallion is about 30" and the mares are either about the same size or taller. We do not plan to breed Sox again, even though her foaling history before we got her is outstanding (and why we bought her). We will be training her to drive.

Foals not getting out of the sac, can be prevented if the foal is born alive, but if you find one with placenta attached, etc., chances are it was dead before delivery. When you have the vet out you might want to have your stallion checked (good to know his normal body temp too. Stallions can carry low grade infections that kill sperm, also if he is carrying anything that might be given to your mares, discuss this with the vet and see if a course of antibiotics might be in order.

 

Some mares/stallions don't like each other. Minis are picky that way. I've had ones flat will NOT breed to each other. I do pasture breed though as it works for me.

Q6. Is there something inherently "wrong" with our breeding stock?

No

Q7. One thing I have considered is to buy a "three-in-one package" but our finances are not great at the moment. If hubby gets a job, we might think more about this one.

LOL. Easier than breeding!

I wouldn't give up. I think it's good to always question and modify what you're doing, but other than finding out about the Rhino if it is an issue, I think you've just had a series of crappy luck.
 
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Too complicated of a case to judge from afar. Just a few thoughts...

Necropsies on neonates yield a result about 30% of the time. You can not run them to save money, but it will only decrease your odds of finding out later.

In other species we choose breeding stock based on ability to get pregnant and produce a live baby. That doesn't seem to happen as much in horses. Select mares and stallions for what is important to you.

I think some people 'over care' for mares. Horses evolved on the plains of northern Africa. It is our paradigm that puts them in barns and feeds them grain. Maybe requiring them to 'rough it' a little more produces a healthier animal. It is not uncommon for me to see those who try very hard to care for their mares actually have more problems than the group that just allows them to do it on their own.

Dr Taylor
 
I hate to say it, but I think breeding Minis is much riskier than the larger breeds. I dont think you are doing anything wrong... I see the same stats from other farms, in various areas of the country under different conditions and feed.

When I first started, I had one not get out of the sack, a mare that was a chronic aborter (she was sold as a pet) a few dystocias- some worked out ok, some did not and an early abortion from one mare. Nothing indicated any disease or problem.

Most of the farms I know of, including mine, do not 'pamper' their mares. They are usually out 24/7 unless there is a specific reason not to be- only to be brought in for foaling.

Breeding since 1995 and a couple of my neighbors since 1980 and 1982, I really think it is the 'nature of the beast' since after breeding the full sized ones, we did not see the issues with them that we do with the Minis.

P.S. I totally agree with Michelle @ Wesco!!
 
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One thing I forgot when talking about Rhino...Leptospirosis (Lepto) can cause abortion also and is carried by many mammals. Charlotte
I was reading through the posts and wanted to mention this but Charlotte beat me to it... When we first started breeding we lost several foals the way you are describing -- rhino was suspected so we gave remaining mares the Rhino shots for the time we had left and still had no better luck that year or the next. Foals born premature or mares foaling without warning and foals not getting out of sacks. After some vet testing on the foals (necropsy) it was determined that Lepto was probably our problem. We now vaccinate for Lepto (I could be wrong on this but I believe the vaccine we use is marketed for cattle not horses- I don't have the bottle in front of me to confirm that). It is a very cheap vaccination and the next year we gave it and then boostered after a month and then gave it again 6 months later -- we did not have ANY of the foaling issues after that. And have had no issues like that since we started vaccinating for it. Now it is just given once a year.

I would say it would definetly be something worth looking into just in case it might help.

Sorry for your losses and good luck!
 
Loads of good thoughts and recommendations here. But, I would like to suggest one more, you should have your pastures tested for Fescue. The things you discribe are really common to the problems mares have with Fescue poisioning. We had a nightmare year as you discribe and our county agent solved our problem when he found we had Fescue grass. We sprayed to kill it and like magic, the next year, no more abortions, early deliveries or malpositions. Good luck in the future.
 
This has been a really interesting thread, and should probably go to the best of forum, eventually. Lots of good information.
 
In other species we choose breeding stock based on ability to get pregnant and produce a live baby. That doesn't seem to happen as much in horses. Select mares and stallions for what is important to you.
I think some people 'over care' for mares. Horses evolved on the plains of northern Africa. It is our paradigm that puts them in barns and feeds them grain. Maybe requiring them to 'rough it' a little more produces a healthier animal. It is not uncommon for me to see those who try very hard to care for their mares actually have more problems than the group that just allows them to do it on their own.
I strongly agree but its a viscous circle because we did this to them and made them so dependent on us. I think this especially applies to miniatures.

I have been flamed for this before but this is why I am opposed to regumate mares. To me if a mare cannot get in foal and sustain a pregnancy then she should not be bred. Its not like there are not enough good breeding mares out there that we should be breeding mares that cannot sustain a pregnancy. I always wonder if their daughters end up being regumate mares too. I do have personal knowledge of one regumate mare and her daughter ended being exactly the same. But that is the only one I have personal knowledge of.

On the flip side though I will say that big horses have just as many issues. I help my neighbor at her foaling facility and it has been a horrible foaling year down there.
 
I will also think about taking pregnant mares off the daily wormer, but I also ask how many colic surgeries you have had? We have had 3, and welcome the $5,000 reimbursement.
To date I have not yet had one colic.

However I am an avid practicer of the proverb that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure..

And even though a company may re-imburse, is it worth the risk?

My experience has been that if a mare does not go into a pregnancy wormy, there has never been an issue with colic..

However I do get choosy on the type of hay that I buy, to make sure it is soft grass and preferrably shorter stemmed, to ease with digestion. I have been known to try up to 3 places to find the best hay choice.

If I do give alfalfa,- (and I do sometimes in small amounts) I remove the courser stems, and offer mostly the leafy part, and even mix this with some grass hay to help ease with passage. ( Allways considering that their intestinal size is significantly smaller in diameter that the standard horse.)

Granted, I probably would be considered by many to be a little on the fanatical side about my hay, but knowing that they are little hay burners why not?

Last night I purchased a single bale of grass hay as a tester, and realized when I got it home it was baled damp.( but not yet mouldy as it was still fresh) So I spread out all the seperate flakes in my barn to dry.

I'm so glad I did not purchase more.( what a mess that would be!)
 
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Not sure if this has been recomended but i vacinate for EHV-1. I give the shots at 5, 7, and 9 months and have never had a problem. My powere has been goingont because of the storm so I'm just starting to read this thread now but wanted to make sure I posted this before it went off again.
 
Actually none of the colic surgeries were done on horses WHILE THEY WERE LIVING HERE. My big horse had 2 of the 3 surgeries (total of 30 feet, or half his small intestines removed and surgeries NOT reimbursed) and I firmly believe he is still alive because we brought him here where he can be outside and on pasture 24/7. I am also a firm believer in an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, which is why they are all on the daily wormer. What sold me on it was a vet telling me that once he starting promoting the daily wormer and the Preventicare program (now discontinued) he noticed that the practice needed far fewer colic treatment supplies. You might not notice any differences on a single farm, but he saw the difference over his entire practice.

I am very picky about my hay, which is local second cutting grass hay. The only alfalfa they get is a SMALL amount of soaked alfalfa cubes at bedtime, in the winter.
 
I will also think about taking pregnant mares off the daily wormer, but I also ask how many colic surgeries you have had? We have had 3, and welcome the $5,000 reimbursement.
Honestly? None. We've had horses, big and small, my entire life, and we have never had a colic surgery. (Nor have we lost a horse to colic--so it's not a case of having chosen to euthanize rather than do colic surgery.) We haven't even had much problem with colic, even mild cases. We've had a gas colic here and there, and two cases of impaction colic that were resolved with oil and stool softener, but nothing major. (Now I hope that I don't jinx myself by saying that.) We've never used a daily dewormer either.
I do agree with Matt Taylor, that sometimes people do too much.

Our horses live outside 24/7, we give them pretty much free choice hay, we don't feed fancy grain rations, just oats for the most part, we don't believe in starving them down into show shape (and I know Mini owners don't like that wording, but I maintain that a good many show Minis are seriously under fed to keep them in show condition). Our mares very often foal outside (unless they choose to foal in their shed--it's their choice) - we don't shut them in the barn when they get close to their due dates.
 

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