Seller Responsiblities

[mmmorgans]

Here are a 3 scenarios that I am interested in people's responses to:

1) Let's say that you purchased a mare bred to a certain stallion. The mare arrives and she is definitely in foal. A month later the exciting day comes when the mare foals - but it is apparent very quickly that the stallion she was supposed to be bred to - obviously is not the sire of this foal. The mare is AMHA/AMHR registered as so is the supposed sire. After emails back and forth between yourself and the breeder - and lots of pictures of the new baby - the breeder announces that she forgot to tell you that the mare got out and obviously was bred by another stallion. This other stallion happens to be an ASPC/AMHR stallion - so the rsulting foal (after fixing the paperwork with AMHR) is only AMHR registerable.

What obligation does the seller have to the buyer when something like this happens? Especially when the buyer can't double register the foal - and if it goes over 38" it will be a unregistered horse - period.

2) The buyer sends a deposit on a mare that is due to foal in a few months - bred to a specific stallion that the buyer is very interested in. The seller ends up selling many of their herd and then it is discovered that the mare that the buyer is purchasing is acutally open. If the buyer wants their deposit back - is this fair? The mare could be bred back to the same stallion for a foal the next year - but that is not what the buyer was purchasing.

3) The seller represents a two year old mare as a 31" mare that has good conformation and a good pedigree. The buyer purchases the mare - transports it over 1000 miles - and is not overly impressed with the mare. The seller ignores emails - and time goes on. The mare in question is pretty wild and hard to handle - disrespectful to people - and has obviously had very little handling. The mare is also 33" tall - so may very easily go over 34". The seller's response is that she gave a good deal on the horse - so the buyer should be happy. So the buyer is stuck with a nasty mare that is difficult to work with - that also has very poor conformation. What is the sellers' responsibility for misrepresenting this mare?

 

[kaykay]

Really all 3 scenario's come down to what was in the written contract. If you didnt have a contract you have nothing to fall back on. If you did have a contract what would be done by the seller and what they were responsible for should have been spelled out.

The 1st example though is a little different. I do think the seller should give back some cash or whatever the buyer requests within reason to remedy the situation.

 

[nootka]

I certainly hope all three scenarios are not the same purchaser having these issues.

The first situation bears a serious consideration to refund or something amenable to the buyer to make up for the dishonesty.

I think purchasing a mare in foal for the foal is risky, anyway, but again as kaykay said, your salvation is in the wording of the purchase contract and the honor of the seller.

Number three may be a bit more difficult to prove. Their responsibility in misrepresentation is only as much as they are willing to be accountable for. I am cynical and think that many misrepresent (either intentionally or otherwise) their stock in order to make a sale, and buying without a pre-sale inspection either by the purchaser or an agent, really puts the buyer at a disadvantage regardless of the wording of the contract (the waste of time and other resources including money to get the horse to the buyer is often overlooked and lost when the horse is not what was hoped for).

I am careful before I engage in a purchase where the buyer has not come to see the horse before they finalize the sale. I don't want my horses to end up in a home where they will not be suited, and I try to be blatanly honest as well as understanding of their needs before I accept the money and the horse ships.

Even so, I have ended up with buyers who were not happy for one reason or another. In two of the cases, the horses came back here. In one, I helped them find a new buyer and even found someone else with the "right" horse.

there is a buyer out there whom I believe is unhappy with me or believes I owe them something for a mare that died about 9 months after they took her. She ended up open in the Spring (I had her ultrasounded the previous Summer and she was bred per that Ultrasound), and then died before we could work out a re-breed plan. They never contacted me though I relayed that I would offer a free re-breed to another mare.

When two years elapsed, I had sold the stallion and no longer own him. They then suggested that I owed them money for the breeding (I had taken about 1000 off the mare's price already) since they never got that foal. My feelings are that too much time elapsed and they didn't do their part in a timely manner.

They probably feel like I misrepresented the mare somehow, but that was not the case. She had had two perfectly healthy foals for me (one died in the sac), full-term.

I did what I could to make sure they had what they purchased, but it didn't work out. My point is that sellers' responsibilities are only as good as their word. I still feel badly about the mare dying on these people, but I also feel like I offered what I could afford to in order to set things right and they never bothered to make any moves towards collecting that. There simply was no money to be refunded, and when buying a mare in foal, it is best not to count that foal until it is up, nursing and weaned.

If nothing in writing relating to a "what if" then it's a wash, and a fact of doing business with living animals that also die for many reasons, or become sterile in spite of all's best intentions and knowledge.

Best of luck with all three of these.

Liz M.

 

[eagles ring farm]

IMO

1) should be a partial refund, or able to return if seller is close by

2) refund deposit if buyer wants

3) is hard as to the amount of transport miles

a) my only thought is have buyer resell in their area and reimburse the difference including transportation

since the horse was so misrepresented. If the deal was really so good maybe buyer can get a higher

price to ofset some transportation costs and seller should reimburse the rest

#3 is a hard senario and sounds like an uncoperative seller

hope it works out for you if any of these senarios have happened to you

 

[Riverdance]

1st senario: The breeder should have told you that the mare had gotten out and there is a possiblility that the foal is not by the stallion they think. (of course, then you probably would not have bought the mare, so they decide to keep that a secret and hoped that they were right). Not fair to you, escecially if you bought the mare because of the foal rather than the mare. If it is because you wanted that speciffic foal by that stallion the seller either owes you some money back or, better yet, a free breeding, including mare care, (shipping too, but that would probably not happen) to the stallion you wanted the foal from.

2nd Senario: It was no ones fault that the mare came up opne, the best case senario for this one is to have the mare bred back to that stallion. I know the foal will be a year latter, but no one was trying to cheat here and you will still be able to get a foal out of that mare and by that stallion.

3rd senario: It is up to the buyer to make sure that they have gotten enough pictures to be happy with the look of the horse they purchased (unless the pictures were doctored to make the horse look like something it was not (I have had that happen to me). Even then, there is not much that you can do about it. Even the height issue. The only thing that you can do here is to never buy from that person again. Also, this kind of cheating gets out and eventurally no one will buy from that breeder again.

I have had it happen to me twice. Once with a stud that I bought and they told me that at 2 years old he was 33 1/3" tall. I took a chance and bought him. A couple of months later he comes to my farm and is the nastiest thing one had ever delt with. He was also 35 1/4" tall, already oversized. The sellers chose to ignore me and refused to take him back, saying that they could not help it if he grew 2" in two months at 2 years old (did they really think I was that stupid?). They knew they were sending me a VERY nasty stallion who kicked, bit, and struck, who was also oversized. I lost out, but you can be sure that I let anyone willing to hear know about the sellers. Seems they have a reputation for that.

The second time, I had purchase several horses from one farm. When I picked them up, they were VERY underweight, hoofs looked like snow skis and they looked NOTHING like their pictures (I had spent $25,000 on this farm). One even ended up with retained testiicles. The seller did nothing to stand behind her horses. I since found out that she doctored her pictures, changes top lines, thined the neck and throatlatches and doctored the heads to make them look pretty. I also found out that others had been burned by her in the same way. I resold all of the horses, but lost about $16,000. That breeder has since gone out of business. Guess her reputation finially caught up.

Contracts are not always as good as the paper they are written on. I am a Realtor and I should know . Unfortunatly the only way you can inforce the contract is with a lawsuite and most people are not willing to go that way (plus the expense is usually more than the cost of the horse)

I guess what I am saying, it is VERY important to make your buyers happy, so that hopefully they and their friends will be back for more. The farms that cheat get a reputation that will follow them everywhere, I have found even overseas. People are more than willing to talk about a bad deal from a farm.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

As Kay mentioned a well written contract should cover most situations you mentioned. Never buy or sell without one!!!

1. We had a 'who's your Daddy here! Actually I figured it out when my friends mare delivered a gorgeous foal that genetically (by color) couldn't be from whom we thought Dad was! As I know the mare never got out while here - we're assuming the appropriately colored stallion in the next pen is the sire. I did was pay for the DNA test, and offer to write an amended stallion report or whatever to make it right. My feeling it was my responsibility and she bought this mare based on a certain breeding period! She still hasn't done the DNA test/PQ - but I figure I've done my part until that time comes. Your situation since you wanted a double registered foal at the very least she owes you another breeding. That would be what I would offer is a free breedback. The resulting foal - heck that's a tough one though.

2. Buyer should get her deposit back unless it was stated differently in a contract. But is the buyer buying the mare or the foal? Mares can slip for a number of reasons and lose the foal up and including at delivery!As I buy a mare and consider any foal a bonus, I would take the breed-back myself. I would want the contract to say 'breeding to result in a live foal . . .'

3. I know of a couple that bought a horse that grew 4" travelling to his new home! Fortunately a well written contract and the horse went back. They were out the round-trip transport fees but that was very cheap considering the cost of the horse in question.

Personally - I believe every buyer has the duty to thoroughly check out a horse before purchase and honestly feel on site visits should occur whenever possible. Unless you know the seller (or have good references) why would you trust them? Even if the person isn't dishonest - one person's idea of good conformation or personality, heck someones ability to measure correctly, etc., can be completely different - it is all subjective.

I've had people tell me how fantastic their horse is and when you see it - it's like are you kidding me???

As I own a couple of down and out @#$# horses, what is nasty to you might be mild to me or vice versa. I have a friend that her horses are very docile pocket pets and she wouldn't want my nasty ladies ever! On the other side I like a bit of 'tude in a horse - not alot but some as that is what I prefer.

But I do talk to all buyers ask their experience and expectations, also I tell them what I know of a horse as our herd is very stable group here you can generally see a horse and at least one or two generations up or down (parents/get) and often siblings, as well as buddies, and other relatives. I'd rather talk someone out of buying a horse than have a horse of mine go into a situation that would have a bad result.

Lastly myself - I would rather work with a buyer to make everyone happy whenever possible as we're talking about living beings here (the horses). I didn't sell a table or painting - so the horses welfare is a big part of what I consider in every sale and every purchase.

3

 

[Joanne]

These situations all come down to good communication. It is always upsetting when the buyer or seller for any reason is unhappy.

Sometimes the buyer has expectations that they just do not communicate to the seller, no matter what the questions were asked by the seller or buyer.

I always hope the other party (I am both a Buyer AND a Seller) and I can communicate. If there are red flags prepurchase, I do not expect them to improve post purchase.

I do give everyone the benefit of a doubt. We all get busy. I drop out of site during foaling season or when it is hectic around here too.

The old "buyer beware" is a good thing to follow.

Part of the fun of the horse buisness is meeting new clients and sellers and expanding my genetic pool of horses. I have often met new breeders on LB and have, with extremely few exceptions been more than happy with the outcome.

 

[Laura]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

1) Let's say that you purchased a mare bred to a certain stallion. The mare arrives and she is definitely in foal. A month later the exciting day comes when the mare foals - but it is apparent very quickly that the stallion she was supposed to be bred to - obviously is not the sire of this foal. The mare is AMHA/AMHR registered as so is the supposed sire. After emails back and forth between yourself and the breeder - and lots of pictures of the new baby - the breeder announces that she forgot to tell you that the mare got out and obviously was bred by another stallion. This other stallion happens to be an ASPC/AMHR stallion - so the rsulting foal (after fixing the paperwork with AMHR) is only AMHR registerable.

What obligation does the seller have to the buyer when something like this happens? Especially when the buyer can't double register the foal - and if it goes over 38" it will be a unregistered horse - period.

I'd say it's the Seller's responsibility to either refund part of the purchase price (equal to a stud fee), offer to rebreed the mare or offer an AMHA registered foal.

2) The buyer sends a deposit on a mare that is due to foal in a few months - bred to a specific stallion that the buyer is very interested in. The seller ends up selling many of their herd and then it is discovered that the mare that the buyer is purchasing is acutally open. If the buyer wants their deposit back - is this fair? The mare could be bred back to the same stallion for a foal the next year - but that is not what the buyer was purchasing.

This does come down to contract, if the mare was ultrasounded as IN FOAL at the time of the sale, but aborted or absorbed the foal, the Seller fullfilled their part of the bargain in selling an IN FOAL mare...that's the letter of the contract, not the spirit, but THEY didn't know the mare was going to abort. Offering to rebreed the mare is fair in my opinion. If the mare was sold as bred, with no proof and the buyer didn't ask for proof, well...they should have as they were buying an EXPOSED mare only and the contract stands as written.

As a seller, I'd offer to rebreed the mare.

3) The seller represents a two year old mare as a 31" mare that has good conformation and a good pedigree. The buyer purchases the mare - transports it over 1000 miles - and is not overly impressed with the mare. The seller ignores emails - and time goes on. The mare in question is pretty wild and hard to handle - disrespectful to people - and has obviously had very little handling. The mare is also 33" tall - so may very easily go over 34". The seller's response is that she gave a good deal on the horse - so the buyer should be happy. So the buyer is stuck with a nasty mare that is difficult to work with - that also has very poor conformation. What is the sellers' responsibility for misrepresenting this mare?

This is sticky. If the horse that arrived is the horse advertised, the Buyer is pretty much stuck. The height difference is something I'd personally take issue with, but at 2 the mare is VERY unlikely to outgrow her papers. if temperament was not discussed, then again the buyer should have asked more questions. Remember that beauty is the eye of the beholder..or Buyer or Seller. if you're not SURE what you're buying, ask more questions, get more pictures or a video.

 

[mmmorgans]

The lesson learned here is - buyer beware - and get everything in writing. DO NOT TRUST ANYONE!!!!! All 3 of these situations are ones that I experienced in the past year - enough to make me not trust a single person - and seriously consider whether I want to continue on with miniature horses!!!! I am a totally honest individual and would never ever misrepresent an animal - and I find it very difficult to understand how others are not like that.

If anyone wants to know who not to buy a horse from - please PM me

 

[Magic]

Yikes, that is awful that you have had such terrible experiences.

I've had quite a few myself, including one like your last scenario, only mine was an AMHA-only registered mare, 5 years old, who when she arrived was over 38" tall.

Also, on that trailer were two other horses I bought from the same person, who didn't feel obligated to do a Coggins test or health certs (WHY the transporter took the horses with them I'll never know) and one of the horses had strangles, which of course spread to the rest of my herd. The seller wasn't the slightest bit sorry about any of it. Hard lessons learned, I tell ya... but I did send back that over 38", after she recovered from the strangles.

 

[albahurst]

I am so sorry you had this happen. I can empathsize with you, for sure. I recently bought a horse that arrived crippled! Now, the video I saw was a couple of years old, when it was showing, so get something current! Made me want to quit horses, too. We saved up for a horse and then this happened. I, too, can't understand why people are so dishonest.

Peggy

 

[kaykay]

yikes im so sorry. please dont give up. there are a lot of reputable sellers out there myself included. I have also had some bad experiences so my circle of who I will buy from is very small.

 

[Songcatcher]

It appears your PM box is full. Inquiring minds want to know. OH!

 

[sdmini]

Just curious Cyndi what do you think should have happened in all three scenarios, not trying to be argumentative just curious. I'm heading out to do chores but will post my thoughts when I get back in.

 

[Minimor]

3) The seller represents a two year old mare as a 31" mare that has good conformation and a good pedigree.

I would have wanted to see enough photos to judge the mare's conformation for myself. I very rarely take anyone else's word for it that a horse has good conformation! So many people are so barn blind, that they honestly believe that a gosh-awful horse has absolutely perfect conformation! Person may not be misrepresenting the horse, he/she just doesn't see the conformation faults!

The mare in question is pretty wild and hard to handle - disrespectful to people - and has obviously had very little handling.

That would have been nice for the seller to warn you about. I got such a mare once; I didn't really mind, just laughed that the seller forgot to mention that little detain--this person had mentioned that another of her sale mares didn't have such a good personality. Afterward I had to wonder just how much worse was THAT mare??? Anyway, when I mentioned something about the attitude of the mare I did buy, the seller said oh, that mare was always her pet. What a crock of poo that was--that mare had never been anyone's pet!! In any case, in time the mare did come around--her attitude is much improved now, and she is "almost" a pet...not quite, but close!

So the buyer is stuck with a nasty mare that is difficult to work with - that also has very poor conformation. What is the sellers' responsibility for misrepresenting this mare?

I would say none--as a buyer I would be disgusted that the seller either lied or simply didn't have a clue about conformation, but I would be even more disgusted with myself for not getting more pictures and judging for myself.As for the height, if there was no height guarantee with the mare I wouldn't expect anything there. Again, I never take anyone's word for height--seller may very well have measured the mare at 31"....after all, look how often 35" and 36" horses are getting measured in and shown in the under 34" class. Stretch her out & press her back down & you might get 31" too. No, I don't agree with that & certainly don't measure that way, but there are many that do and those people figure that it's perfectly okay to measure that way.