Selling horses on application

[mel]

I bought a horse from a reputable farm during their farm sale auction, and here it is over 2 months later and I am still waiting on paperwork, because of a mix up.

Why can't the AMHR/AMHA come up with a rule that states all horses sold/transfered must already be registered in the original owners name? I know buyer beware on an application, but still do we as breeders stand that it is ok to sell a horse on an application. I have been with minis for over 15 years, I have never sold a horse on application ( you may not want to believe that, but it is policy here that every horse be registered and paperwork in hand before it leaves the farm) and believe that horses should not be sold without everything ready for the new owner. Is it the cost of registering that keeps people from doing the paperwork? Lazyness? Or someother behavior/thought pattern that keeps this from being done? I am not harping on this one farm, as I have seen it many times over from different breeders. I can say that this has ruined me from considering any other horse that is selling on application. How many others feel this way? If enough people stand behind not buying horses on application, perhaps these people who sell horses on application will be forced into sending the paperwork in and we can send a picture that we as mini owners are responsible in all aspects of promoting the miniature horse.

Please understand I am not trying to step on any one persons toes, and this is not what this topic is about. This is a problem that I have seen for many years and it appears to be increasing in numbers. I want to know peoples opinions, and their ideas of leaving this alone or if they believe like I do that this is an increasing problem that needs to be rectified.

 

[Minimor]

For me the answer is simple. I don't buy on application. I have bought foals that weren't registered yet, but the breeder was doing the paperwork & sending it in--she is a good friend and I know she is completely trustworthy, so I have no concerns about the registrations being done. As well, I know her horses and I know the foals I'm getting are for sure out of the mare and by the stallion they are supposed to be out of and by!

Will I go to a stranger and buy on application? No. Go to an auction sale and buy a horse on application? No. The only way I would do that is if I would be happy to have the horse even if it weren't registered--and the only way I'd be happy with that is if it were some pitiful little horse that I wanted to rescue from a terrible situation.

Given how often we hear of someone getting stung by buying on application, it always amazes me that so many people continue to be willing to purchase horses on application. If everyone stopped buying horses that weren't properly registered and transferred into the current owner's name, people would about have to stop trying to sell them that way.

I once saw a filly advertised on the saleboard. I really, really liked that filly but the ad stated that she wasn't yet registered. In the same ad the dam of that filly was also listed for sale. The ad clearly stated that the mare needed to be brought permanent. When I read that, I went right on past--no way was I even going to bother asking about that filly when she had no papers--who knows who was likely to buy the dam, and who knows if that buyer would bother to make her permanent, and so who knows if the filly could ever get her papers. I wondered at the time how many other potential buyers were put off that filly by the lack of current paperwork.

 

[SHANA]

I've bought on application before but bought from a breeder I knew. I have sold on application before as well but guarantee the foal is registerable with the appropriate registry. My 4 stallions are permanent with AMHR and 3 are permanent with AMHA, other is only 3. All my mares 3 and older are permanent as well with AMHR and the ones that are AMHA(2 mares 5 and older-have a 2 year old as well but not yet old enough) are also permanent. So no worries there. If a mare or stallion is not permament when I get it and it is old enough I do that first thing. So no worries about buying from me as all my paperwork is up to date and stallion reports are sent to both AMHA and AMHR each year for the stallions.

 

[Margaret]

I agree, unless you want to trust what the seller is telling you.

I have learned long ago that if I am intrested in a horse for purchase,

NOT to go any further with the transaction unless I have first talked to the supposed registries that the said horse is registered in.

They can verify or deny all the necessary data to support the claims of the seller. This can save alot of dissappointment.

Its kinda like hearing it from the horses mouth.

 

[Becky]

I don't sell horses on application and I won't buy any that way either. There is a period of time, obviously, where new foals have their paperork 'in process' and we have to wait on that. As has been stated, a buyer can contact the registries to verify the paperwork and that all is in order. Otherwise, all horses sold here not only have their registration certificates, but the paperwork is in the sellers name and the transfers are signed by the current owner of the horse on papers.

I had a young couple here a couple of weeks ago looking to purchase their first miniature horses. They were visiting a number of local farms. The biggest thing that I stressed to them was to make sure the seller had the original registration papers in hand and that any transfers were signed by the owner on the papers. I also stressed to them not to buy on application only as that could become a paperwork nightmare! They came back and purchased from me.

 

[turtlecreek]

Being fairly new to miniature horses and their registries, I wish this topic would have come up a couple of months ago. We are going through this right now with a filly we just purchased. I guess I am getting a crash course in registry procedure. To me this filly was a dream come true that now is turning into a nightmare. At some point in time if this doesn't rectify itself somehow, I won't hesitate to post this story publicly.

We also purchased a colt a couple of years ago on application, but I had everything I needed before we left the farm and the breeder was more than helpful.

I think it would be a good thing to require horses to be registered, made permanent - whatever - or the breeder faces some sort of sanction with the registry. It's just ridiculous for people to be denied papers after they've paid for them.

A hard knock lesson for this "newbie" - doesn't make me want to buy anymore!

 

[Charlotte]

Oh my Mel & Shana, what a headache and disappointment! I do hope it all works out.

We have never sold a horse 'on application' and I would never buy one that way either. To me 'on application' might as well be unregistered and too often ends up that way.

We even had an 'almost disaster' with our foal registrations this year. We bought a bred mare in '07 at a sale. Service certificate and registration & transfers were all in place. When I went to register the foal this year ...Oops! No stallion breeding report for that stallion in '07. VERY fortunately for us the stallion (which had subsequently been sold) had DNA on record. We had to DNA the foal and again fortunately she PQd to the listed sire so she is finally registered! We almost ended up with a non AMHA filly that we planned to keep for a broodmare!

We keep telling people looking to buy that paperwork is everything! Find out what you need to have and check it out down to the last letter. THEN keep up with it! Transfers, Temp to Perms....whatever is needed. If you don't the value of that horse you bought goes down hill fast.

Charlotte

 

[targetsmom]

I think this is a topic that you should be required reading for anyone new to minis.

Some things I gradually figured out were to:

- check the Studbook on-line (or with the registries) to make sure the horse was registered in the name of the seller

- also confirm the horse has been made permanent if it is old enough

- ask the seller about all the registries the horse is registered in or eligible for and get all the papers (we had to hardship a mare into AMHR that we shouldn't have had to)

- And yes, make sure you get the papers and the signed transfer form WITH the horse.

- If the breeder tells you the papers on a weanling have been sent in, call the registry and check. Ask if you can send in the transfer form and have them send the papers back to you instead of to the breeder. It worked for us.

 

[sedeh]

I would never sell or buy something with "application" papers only! Usually by the time my foals are weaned I've gotten their papers already or they're being processed. I'm only a small breeder though. I know it's harder for the bigger breeders to keep all of theirs utd. We have one very disreputable mini breeder in our area that sells almost exclusively on "application". I feel for anyone that buys one of her minis! What a nightmare! She usually doesn't know who the sire is...she runs everything together on open fields and half of them aren't DNA'd. She'll pick a name out of the air and put it on the application. I've even seen her adds on dreamhorse that say "application" papers available. If you don't personally know and trust the person I would never buy on application!

 

[chandab]

I bought my stallion as a yearling, he had AMHA papers already, but came with AMHR application (I had no problems with getting his AMHR papers). I have a mare that is AMHR only, but I have her AMHA application (breeder figured she would go over, so didn't send in her papers; she did go over, but I'm keeping her application just in case AMHA allows registration of any foal resulting from two registered parents, both of this filly's parents are already DNA'd).

I'm sure I was lucky with my stallion that it all worked out, and I doubt I would buy on application in the future based on stories told here.

 

[vvf]

I don't like to buy on application unless I know the person very well.

And I try to have all our foals registered and papers in hand before selling, but a couple years ago I sold a mare and filly.

The person had shipping lined up pretty quickly and I knew I wasn't going to get the papers back on the filly in time, so I filled out the applications and wrote a check to both registeres and stapled it along with the applications.. This went to the buyer.

So all the buyer had to do was send in the applications with my checks. But she did have to pay for the transfers to her name.

 

[dgrminis]

I have bought on application and I have bought and had papers mailed to me and I can tell you sometimes it has been ok and other times it has been a mess...

Last valentine's day my husband bought me two bred mares -- paid with a check when we picked them up - lady knew that is how we were paying but she didnt want to give me the papers until the check cleared -- it was like an hour and half drive one way for us so no biggie she said she would mail them -- I knew my check was good so thought ok no biggie -- took me 3 months to get the papers in hand even though she cashed the check the next day and it cleared my bank in 2 days -- was very nerve wracking for sure...

I have also bought horses on application that have been through several owners and it is a mess/headache to sort that kinda paperwork out...

I am not saying I wouldnt do it again if it was a horse I really wanted but I definetly perfer not to

All the horses we sell here that are registered come already registered and up to date (well I guess I have to admit I have a WCMHR mare that I have listed for sale that has her papers in a mess but she is being listed as unregistered since I dont know anything about that registry and she came to me that way)....

 

[littlearab]

I use to trust other people.

Until I was educated the hard way. Now I have had to deal with a lieing seller and AMHR. No one knows the H&^% I've been in the last couple of years. My advice to everyone is trust NO ONE.

I trusted the gal I purchused two mares form with messed up paperwrok. I spent money and time to get everything right. Or so I thought. I lied to by her and by AMHR.

In the end I ended up being punished. I wish to God I had left her place with out any horses.

Never.... Never.... never ever buy any horse with out thier paperwork up to date.... unless you plan on thorwing them, away. Never buy on appication from anyone you do not know is 100% truthful. If you do you are running the risk of ending up like me.

Please, throw away any paperwork you are not 100% sure of yourself. In my mind that is breeding papers because I did not see the stallion cover that mare so in my mind I'm not 100% sure.

Do yourself a big favor and do not take anyones word that any thing but 100% up to date paperwork is good. Because if it's not you pay and they walk..

Been there still there.... still paying for it...

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I would not sell any horse on application. Too me that just looks lazy on the breeder or they just can't afford it. IMO if you are the ones to be registering that horse, you should name it whatever you want, you should decide whatever farm name you want to put on those papers. Thats just the way I see it. You have to really be careful when it comes to paperwork. I check the studbooks all the time to see if they are UTD or not.

Fortuantly for me I have had no paperwork mess ups. I even had bought a horse but you could tell she had the wrong sets of papers by the markings. Contact the registeries, they are your friends, they helped me get the right papers on the horse.

 

[wcr]

I am selling a filly on application at the moment but I own the mare and stallion. I know the breeding dates, I foaled her out and there is no way any other stallion could have bred that mare. My reasoning is that with the financial situation as it is people are tight, as I am. If someone wants to buy her before I register her then they can save $300 and I put in writing that I gaurantee no registration problems.

BUT...I am getting ready,as most of us are, to send in stallion reports, memberships ect, and her paperwork will go with it.

 

[mel]

The sad part is I am not new to minis, been with them since the 80's. When the horse comes from a leading miniature/shetland show farm you would think everything would be ok, and that they would be trustworthy. I found out that several people who bought horses from the sale at this farm have paperwork issues now. This has put me off buying horses from this farm. I have bought horses on application, but this will be the last. I was looking at a filly untill they told me she was on application, I DIDN'T WALK AWAY I RAN!!! I had every intention of having this colt on my show string for 09. This fella made my heart go pitty patter when they presented him. I am trying to be nice and professional about this incident, and not name the farm, or even post a picture of the colt, yet.

So going back to my earlier comment, Does anyone think that this would be a good issue to present to the Registrys and attempt to put into the rule book? I know their will be opposition from some of the breeders out there, but lets get down to good buisness practices, would you buy a book that the first chapter is missing in. Thats what it comes down to buying a mini on application, the first chapter of being a registered miniature is the registration!

By the way, the AMHR and the AMHA have been super friendly and helpful in this matter, and I cannot fault them for their service to their members!

 

[eagles ring farm]

We would not buy a horse on application way too much can go wrong and I have

learned that on this forum the past few years with problems people have had.

I'm surprised how many people still do

we always have all the registry work in order on all the horses we sell

and our AMHA foals are DNA's and PQ'd by us before they are weaned so

someone can be sure no paper work problems

Yes it costs more and alot of paperwork

but its worth it to present the buyer with a horse they

are happy with in every way, and can be sure there will be no paperwork problems

We had a filly leave today she is AMHR,AMHA,PtHA registered Futurity nominated and DNA'd and PQ'd

I was a little slow pulling hairs for DNA but got her papers back last Saturday with a week to spare

I best move quicker next time and work on AMHA first.

I wish more people would DNA & PQ their horses when they are for sale to avoid that nightmare

that could happen

Lori

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I am not sure I understand what is being discussed here. By application, do you mean the horse could have papers but doesn't yet because the paperwork has not been sent to AMHA/AMHR? The buyer is trusting that the horse is, indeed, registerable?

I sold a horse, and after I delivered him, I kept his papers for the 30 day trial period. I know so many hobby mini owners who do not bother to send in the papers, as being registered isn't really a big deal with many of them. I wanted to keep the papers, in case the horse did not work out for the people and I got him back. I did not want them to say, "OH, well we lost the papers" or "we will mail them to you later" and I'd never get them. After I was sure the horse would work out, I mailed the papers to the new owners, and then cashed their check. I was trying to protect myself, and my horse's registry. Does my holding onto the papers fit into this discussion?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Wasn't there a proposed rule change that someone submitted to AMHA that if the breeder did not register that baby but the new owners had to then they could name that baby whatever they wanted to? I was wondering if that passed?

Sorry that didn't answer your question. I hope you get things settled soon for you.

 

[eagles ring farm]

I am not sure I understand what is being discussed here. By application, do you mean the horse could have papers but doesn't yet because the paperwork has not been sent to AMHA/AMHR? The buyer is trusting that the horse is, indeed, registerable?
I sold a horse, and after I delivered him, I kept his papers for the 30 day trial period. I know so many hobby mini owners who do not bother to send in the papers, as being registered isn't really a big deal with many of them. I wanted to keep the papers, in case the horse did not work out for the people and I got him back. I did not want them to say, "OH, well we lost the papers" or "we will mail them to you later" and I'd never get them. After I was sure the horse would work out, I mailed the papers to the new owners, and then cashed their check. I was trying to protect myself, and my horse's registry. Does my holding onto the papers fit into this discussion?

Yes they are talking about buying a horse with the application for registration filled out by the seller but never sent in to the registry. So all kinds of problems can arrise from - stallion reports never being submitted - the dna not matching then serious problems.

In your case as long as agreed by buyer but your horse is already registered that is different

IMO

Lori