Sensitive question

[Windhaven]

Well I have to agree with Rabbitsfizz. A stallion is not close enough to perfect if he has not dropped by 2 years of age. But if he is a beautiful horse then he will make an awesome gelding.

I have had the experience of purchasing my fair share (more than one) of stallion prospects only to have them not drop. One I had to keep until he was 4 yrs old (purchased as a weanling) before I could return him for an exchange. Now I have wasted 3 yrs and tons of $$$ on him in, training fees, showing fees, photo shoots, transportation both ways, and care for a stallion that I will not or could not use. Only because people continue to breed horses that drop late. It should not be accepted just like dwarfism, locking stifles, bad bite etc.

Years ago when there where so few good horses, I know that some faults where over looked because they didn't have that many horses to work with. Now that there is an over abundance of VERY NICE HORSES, I see no reason to use horses with faults, like dropping late.

Hopefully if people quit breeding stallions like this, the trait would disappear eventually.

 

[maestoso]

I agree that Sr horse who doesn't have descended testicles should not be used for breeding, as the condition CAN be pass on to the offspring. However, there is a reason that stallion certificates are not required until horses are 3, a senior horse. If a colt doesn't drop both both until his second year or even well into his second year, but does drop them, that doesn't mean all his offspring will also be "late droppers" and even if it does, I don't really view it as a problem as long as everything is where it is suppose to be by the time they are mature. If you throw away every stallion who isn't all there by the time they are yearlings, I guess that is good for you, but I don't know many smart breeders who would throw away a great stallion because they had to wait a little longer to find their "equipment". Please don't manipulate what I have said to thinking it is ok to wait until they are 7 or something, I am talking about horses who may not drop until their second year.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

how nice that you and your points are "PERFECT" , and that you have blemish free offspring...

sorry , but I find that hard to believe . no person no thing , animal , act, is perfect.. I am sure all of your horses are nice...but nothing is perfect. keep it real . and I will say no more to this topic to reply to a post that you have posted in , obviously we don't see eye to eye , and it seems you are as stubborn as I am . this makes me want to leave the forum..

I think you must be reading a different post from the one I actually wrote.

Maybe you should try again, nothing like that was written.

Matt, I'm sorry but I disagree.

A colt that does not drop til two or three is going to be passing that problem on to his sons, that is how we ended up with that problem in the first place!!

I do not understand how people can even think of accepting, in Minis, something that no BH breed would tolerate.

As I said, if a colt is not fully descended at birth you have a real problem, it is the first thing (well one of the first things) that I check with a colt, in fact it is normally the way I asses the sex of a foal as a quick rummage is far less stressful on everyone than trying to get underneath to look!!

I shall say again, if a colt is not correct by the time it is a yearling (some do "put them away" at weaning) it is not correct.

I do not care how good it is or what it has won.

It is the same with patella problems and the same with dwarfism, etc.

If we tolerate the problems they will never go away.

It is only by being ruthless and assessing our own stock as we do other peoples that we can resolve the problems we have allowed to accumulate and go forward.

 

[Margaret]

It is obvious that not everyone is pursuaded in using only fully decended stock for breeding.

I trim hooves for someone that was using a cryptorchid for breeding, and her rational is that "not all of his decendants will inherit that trait."

She is a good friend, and I dont judge her for this, but it is apparent that there are two different pursuasions out there.

This is another good reason why people that buy over the internet would do well to have a vet check done on their prospect if having fully decended stock is important to their criteria.

I had to have my stallion vet checked to enter an AMHA show,, and he now has a certificate of inspection of stallion report that certifies that he has 2 testicles normally descended in the scrotum .

It is a good investment to do this, as it will also be helpful if you ever need to sell your stallion as you now have documented veterinary proof that he has a fully dropped set.

 

[Songcatcher]

If you had a really nice stallion for breeding and producing nice offspring .And one of his colts was a Cryptorchid would you stop using him to breed ....as you say its heredatery???? Will all the people that had stallions that had Cryptorchids now geld their stallions?? I doubt it , so why should this woman not breed? And if you think se should stop because she is aware of the problem , what if you got a call from a client of yours that told you your top stallion produced this and you need to geld him so he wont produce more? Hmmmmm..think about it

I believe this overlooks the fact that 50% of the foals genetics come from the dam. It could be that the problem was inherited from the maternal grandsire and not the sire. Therefore, there would be no need to geld the sire. I suggest this as I have had one mare who had three colts (from different stallions) whose jewels were not visible. Three strikes and you're out. She is no longer in my breeding program.

 

[maestoso]

Rabbitsfizz, You can say it as many times as you want, but it is still just your opinion. You are not in a position to make a blanket statement as fact. What may be wrong to you is just that, wrong to you, and possibly others, but possibly not.

Besides, didn't you say that in the last 40 years of your breeding program you have never had such a problem? Lucky you, but where is your personal evidence that a colt that descends at 2 will produce more colts that descend at 2?

 

[Joanne]

From the veterinarian magazine The Horse:

"Inguinal cryptorchids, the most common type, are characterized by testes that have failed to descend beyond the inguinal canal, or occasionally lie just under the skin (called ectopic cryptorchids; see "Cryptorchid Anatomy"). Failure of inguinally retained testes to descend might be temporary or permanent. Temporary inguinal cryptorchidism is reported to be most common in ponies and miniature horses, and to mainly affect the right testis.

If the condition is temporary, the testes will descend by three years of age. Failure to descend by this time indicates permanent cryptorchidism, a condition seen in all types of horses."

Shall we listen to scientific fact or fiction??

 

[maestoso]

Thanks Joanne, you just proved what I was saying. What you have quoted, states clearly that it is not a permanent condition unless they are still not dropped by 3.

What you quoted doesn't address my next question though. I would be interested in reading any research that states that a horse that drops as a 2 year old is more likely to produce a late dropper or crypt than a horse that drops as a yearling or weanling.

I know of a crypt by a stallion who was not a crypt, had several foals, and this was the only crypt. Is it always hereditary? If so, how do you explain these cases? Is it sometimes hereditary and sometimes by chance? In which case how do you really know anything . . . .? And, if one horse drops as a weanling and another horse as a 2 yr old, they are both the same by the time they are mature, and where's is the research that says the late dropper is a defect that passes on? If ALL RIGHT horses are supposed to drop at the same time, how come ALL RIGHT horses are not expected to mature and grow at the same rate? Some horses don't really fill out and look like mature animals until their 4th or 5th year, is this a defect as well? Some stallions are 33 and 1/2" by the time they are yearlings but never grow any taller. Is this a defect too?

"I'll say it again!" I'd like to see the research that addresses late droppers, as in 2 year olds, since, as Rabbitsfizz states, these animals are not right. So far, I have seen only research that states any animal no dropped by 3 is a crypt.

 

[LowriseMinis]

Man, I'm glad I didn't ask about something really controversial like measuring or checkreins!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Joanne, I am sorry but this is a fault, and as such should not be tolerated in Minis anymore than it would be in Arabs, where it would not stand a chance!

It is not a matter of "fact or fiction" (and quite frankly that is offensive and condescending. )

The reason that it is seen so commonly in Minis is purely because we allow it to happen, NOT because Minis are more prone to it.

The statistics may well be sound but the information is being presented cart before horse fashion.

 

[Mona]

Please be a little kinder when posting on the forum. You each have the right to give your opinion, but please do not argue, insisting that your way is the only way. Please just make your point, give your opinion and move on. Argueing will not be accepted nor tolerated on the LB forums.

 

[Joanne]

Thank you Mona for stepping in. I would LOVE to see topics like this discussed without flaming people.

I was sorry to read that one member felt she no longer wished to post after being flamed during the discussion of this topic. The forum is for polite discussion.

Matt here is another quote from The Horse veterinary magazine which may help answer the question you have posed:

"A discussion of cryptorchidism in young stallions is fraught with controversy. Everyone agrees on what constitutes cryptorchidism, but that sometimes is as far as agreement goes. We know that the condition involves the retention of one or both testicles in a stallion, either in the abdominal cavity or the inguinal canal. Just exactly why the descent of the testis or testes into the scrotum fails to occur is not definitely known, although there are several theories.

The real controversy begins when the subject of treatment is brought into the conversation.

There are individuals, for instance, who feel a discussion on treatment protocols is unwarranted because the condition is hereditary. The only recourse, they would maintain, is castration.

Others will argue that it has not been proven scientifically that cryptorchidism is inherited. Unless the testis is retained within the abdominal cavity, they would likely advocate the use of hormonal therapy to stimulate descent of the testis.

The two hormones that have been used with some success are gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) and human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG). "

As some of you may know the majority of horse research is undertaken with the financial support of the Thoroughbred industry. Several well know BREEDING stallions are Cryptorchids and are actively being bred, though the veterinarians recommend keeping their live cover breedings to 50-60 mares instead of the usual 250 plus possible in a single breeding season.

 

[Westwood Farms]

Here are my thoughts. I had a stallion once, many years ago, that did not drop til he was at least 3. I did use him for breeding. All of his colts, and I mean all dropped early, and were gelded early.

Just look at the colt well, if you like what you see, get him. I have gelded early and Sr. stallions, they both do fine.

Show him as a gelding, he will be quite happy if you do. BUt, if you use him for breeding, make sure they are both there. Have him vet checked first, and make sure he is conformationally correct.