Shetland Influence

[Minimor]

Loved the show ring environment with them. I think working the rail and the entire way they are shown showcases a horse a lot better than a mini. I definately got bored in the mini halter ring. But that's just me.

Me too. Me too! I got my first Shetland last year, then acquired 3 more this spring, and have one more coming this fall. I showed them for the first time last month and loved it--the rail work is a blast. I like being able to show off those big trots.
I actually wish that Minis did rail work the same way the Classics do. I've got some big moving Minis and I think that style of showing would show them (and their movement!) off much better than the current way of showing Minis.

 

[JWC sr.]

Thanks Robin,

You and your family (yes even John Boy) are good for this industry. Your experience and success in this industry is above question and I personally admire all of you for your successes and efforts.

As you know many times we may be on different sides of any particular question, But I always respect where you are coming from. Heck even Cindy and I disagree about where we should be going, how we are going to get there and in general what is really important. LOL

Thanks for chiming in I hope yours posts give all of us a number of things to think about.

By the way, I think it is the worst thing AMHA can do if they continue down the path of closing the registry. As your brother and I have talked about there are way to many things that need to be corrected in the miniature horse to close the gene pool at this time in my humble opinion. Plus there is the money issue which in todays day and age any revenue source is a welcome addition.

 

[Genie]

I grew up with ponies and shetlands and they were a "dime a dozen" ....hot and nasty, and all the other things we have all known about the shetland, if you remember those days.

I do know that people are going to listen to the "hype" on whatever is out there and "go for it". Like the stock market, for instance...if you make your decisions based on hearing about a good stock, then you are too late to get in on it, and do well, usually.

The breeders promoting shetlands and the judges decisions will steer people to the shetland and the market will saturate, and they will be back to the "dime a dozen" days.

Is "the miniature horse is the best example of the full sized horse in miniature" as I have seen written?

In a show, is the statement "all things being equal the judge will place the smaller horse over the taller" a correct statement?

In my opinion, it is not the way it is, and the answer given to me from judges and competitors is, "the smaller horse can not be equal to the taller horse due to many factors, leg action" 'neck" , and on and on.

Maybe I am a little off topic in answering the thread, but rather "venting again" about what I am seeing in the few shows that I can attend or compete in.

I am obviously a lover of the smallest miniature horses, conformationally correct and possessing a good nature.

 

[Minimor]

In a show, is the statement "all things being equal the judge will place the smaller horse over the taller" a correct statement?
In my opinion, it is not the way it is, and the answer given to me from judges and competitors is, "the smaller horse can not be equal to the taller horse due to many factors, leg action" 'neck" , and on and on.

If the smaller horse doesn't have the leg action, the "neck" and/or whatever else that the taller horse has, then all things are not equal.

I grew up with ponies and shetlands and they were a "dime a dozen" ....hot and nasty, and all the other things we have all known about the shetland, if you remember those days.

The ponies I grew up with were none of those things. I did know a few that were smarter than their owners, and those owners would complain about how ornery the pony was--they never recognized that the only real problem they had was their ponies were smarter than they were!

 

[LaVern]

It is the Modern Shetland influence that scares me. And it will come. The reason it scares me is that I am afraid that some will try to compete, with horses that can't do it. You can already see, what looks like to me, miniature horses that have had something funny done to them to make them lift there legs goofy.

So if we get on it and create a spot for them before it goes to far, I think we can eliminate problems down the line.

Last year Larry put in a new fun class on the rail. I don't know how I feel about it, but it was fun.

So I think Robin is right, we have to think ahead.

I know probably should not say this, but my Dad and my Uncles are gone now, so they don't care if you flame them. But this is what they used to say," A bunch of Old Fuds hanging on the rail, looking for some action, wrecked a whole breed".

I don't believe that, as I feel there is a place for them, but it is not competing against our more classic style minis, any more than they do in the Shetland Arena.

 

[Reble]

So many different opinions, which is good to read and learn from.

I believe the best thing for the miniature horse is to have a program & try to better the breed.

So many of us do not.

 

[kaykay]

I know back in my day they called any small pony a shetland weather it actually was or not (still happens today) And I also know that the children that rode those ponies were not accomplished riders in any way and saw plenty of ponies terrorized by small children. IMO this is where they got that "nasty" reputation. I worked at a riding rental stable and when I think back now of how bad those ponies were treated its just horrible. I also remember myself going out into a field of ponies and jumping on them and riding them. Am I proud of that now?? No!!! But I feel sure it did nothing to help the temperments of those ponies.

When people come here they are just shocked at how sweet and loving our shetlands are. I have lent Jet out to a couple different kids that had no experience with ponies and they did wonderfully with Jet.

Modern Shetlands arent the people eating horses people think they are either. We have a modern pleasure and shes so smart we just have to always stay a step aheadof her. Kyle started showing her when he was just 9. She is always the pony people gravitate to when they come here.

 

[Genie]

In a show, is the statement "all things being equal the judge will place the smaller horse over the taller" a correct statement?
In my opinion, it is not the way it is, and the answer given to me from judges and competitors is, "the smaller horse can not be equal to the taller horse due to many factors, leg action" 'neck" , and on and on.

If the smaller horse doesn't have the leg action, the "neck" and/or whatever else that the taller horse has, then all things are not equal.

I grew up with ponies and shetlands and they were a "dime a dozen" ....hot and nasty, and all the other things we have all known about the shetland, if you remember those days.

The ponies I grew up with were none of those things. I did know a few that were smarter than their owners, and those owners would complain about how ornery the pony was--they never recognized that the only real problem they had was their ponies were smarter than they were!

 

[LaVern]

It is not their temperament that I worry about. I own 29 inch miniatures that are terrible. It is the Modern Shetlands abilities and is it fair to put them up against our more classic miniatures? They don't do it in the Shetland Arena.

I am not really up on a lot of the Shetland history, but I think it caused so much trouble and so many hard feelings for the Pony Club, there was A's and B's and something about percentages. I think they ended up just going with the look. I am not sure. So I think we should get on it and do something ahead of time for a change, to avoid trouble down the line.

 

[kaykay]

I for sure was against the dropping of the A's and B's on the papers but no one consulted me LOL. Because of this you do see Modern/ Pleasure types showing in Classic division. So--- nothing is perfect in any registry for sure. But again this goes back to judges. If a modern or modern pleasure shows in classic the horse is to be penalized but some judges dont and will actually place them.

 

[Amy]

My answer in this topic is for Genie -- she & I have had many discussions on this , and I don't think i get my point made correctly, or at least as plainly as I would like to..

As I see it the main problem here at the fair shows in "The not being equal" is that fairs don't have a large budget so they show ALL heights together and so nothing is really equal, especialy in driving.(unless the show is sanctioned )

To do justice to both the small and the taller horses the height divisions should not be in the same class together.

ALso, at the show I know Genie is referring to -- it is classed as an "A" only show -- but it does not use the "A" requirements for each age class

weanlings up to 30"

Yearlings - up to 32"

3 year olds - 33"

mature - 34"

However, in any class as long as the horse is "Under 34" it is allowed.

BUT --, the people in charge do have the ability to change this to a proper A only show by using the rulebook definition for each age heights. You cannot expect the judge to make the changes for you in the ring, as the judge has to judge each animal presented to them in the ring with no bias -- so if a "taller " horse has more action -- then all things are not equal & that horse deserves the placing.

The show managers are in control of what is allowed to enter the class by how they have set up the rules for the show. THe judge does not know or see the measurments of any horse & have to assume that if you have allowed it to be entered into that class it is under the height you have set for that class -- at this show the only criteria being "under 34 inches."

Well a weanling that is 33 " does not compare to a 30" and so on down the line.

IF you want to have an "A" only show then the heights for each age must be followed or you do not have anything close to a true A show or anything being equal except that ALL the horses at the show are under 34" regardless of their age.

This only compounds the differences and does nothing to make things equal.

Hopefully I have explained this clearly as I know Genie is very frustrated with the judging at these "A" shows -- but the judge canly judge what is presented to them. It really & truly is not an A show -- and only by changing the rules for next year can we hope to make it equal in the way that Genie would like to see it judged.

Glad to see you venting Genie -- maybe someone else can help you see what I am trying to show you.

Also by the way -- you do have a wonderful show -- it is one of our very favorites, & with over a 100 horses this year you can be very proud.

But, you will have to change the rules to accomplish what you so dearly love & want to see & protect.

Hope this helps explain things.

 

[kaykay]

HI Amy!

I get what you are saying but that really has nothing to do with the Shetland influence. Many AMHA breeders breed for the top of that 34" so they will have tall yearlings and weanlings even without having reintroduced Shetland back in.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[Songcatcher]

All miniatures- A and B sized are nothing more than small Shetlands. Robin-LKF

Robin, there is no doubt in my mind that you are infinately more knowledgeable about the breeding and showing of Miniatures than I am (and I say that with sincerity, not sarcasm), but, this statement is somewhat misleading. I have no doubt that Shetland is by far the major influence in Miniature, but other breeds have had some influence as well. Proof of this is as simple as colors and patterns in Miniatures that do not exist in the original Shetlands. But, for that matter, today's Shetlands are not simply Shetlands either, and that is one of the main things I have against them personally. Today's Shetlands are nothing like the Shetlands I remember as a kid nearly 50 years ago, and it is not just from selective breeding within the breed. It is from outcrossing to other breeds.

I think everyone needs to keep in mind that everyone has their preference, and breed for what they like. Lest anyone think I am trying to put down Shetlands, my current main herdsire is the 29 inch grandson of a Shetland named Rowdy.

 

[LaVern]

Just about everything I have ever done well with goes back to a little Welsh mare.

 

[Robin]

okay- I'm back!

I agree with the person who was questioning what "type" the decison makers might put on the B division. I would be concerned as well. My thinking and suggestion would be very similar to what the divisions are in the ASPC classes. A "Classic Miniature" and a "Modern Miniature" - with very similar requirements- basically size would be the difference. I think and have always thought that the best thing about the miniature horse is that they are so versatile and attract horse people from all different backgrounds- QH, Arab, Morgan, Hackney, Welsh, App, Paint etc. We are blessed to have a product that has such a large demographic audience. I think the above type breakdown is the only way that a true "type" could be set and include all the horses that are already showing in the B division - and I am not so certain the same breakdown shouldn't be made in the A division. Now the show managers are going to have a fit with this sort of schedule! Don't ask me how to get it that all figured out

I do agree- there are Welsh, Hackney, Appy, different Pinto lines etc all somewhere in these minis- obviously- but to my knowledge- most of these original crosses first came thru the shetland line and then the mini (dwarfs) were bred to them and have evolved from there. Now I could be wrong and I haven't read all the old Journals, but that has been my understanding from the "ole fellers".

My Mom grew up with the "old shetlands" that were called the four letter word! Just like any breed of dog, horse etc, there are some lines that have different personalities than others. There are some that are more workable and friendly than others and some that blow fire out their nostrils and have their tails up over their backs (now those are my type

) I love the poof and blow horses. However- I did have a Shetland stud that once he knew I was scared of him- he took it out on me everytime. Needless to say he is gone - but I have a daughter of his and she is sweet and gentle. I never label an entire line of horses just from one bad one.

I do know what LaVern is saying in regards to making a horse something it isn't by breeding a certain type! I see miniatures in cart that should never be in cart- physcially they can't do it- there is no form to function. That is an entire different subject and something that I feel is a huge problem in the associations and shows. But like I said- that is another subject.

Just my input- thank you so much for the compliments. I told my Mom she needed to read this post- apparently several people feel she has taught me well!

Robin-LKF

 

[~Lisa~]

okay- I'm back!
I

I do agree- there are Welsh, Hackney, Appy, different Pinto lines etc all somewhere in these minis- obviously- but to my knowledge- most of these original crosses first came thru the shetland line and then the mini (dwarfs) were bred to them and have evolved from there. Now I could be wrong and I haven't read all the old Journals, but that has been my understanding from the "ole fellers".

Robin-LKF

Ok so here is my question or well thoughts I guess.... and you know Robin I mean this respectfully

I hear often it is the minis that were/are dwarves yet we also hear sometimes in the same sentence all minis came from Shetlands which ok we know it was a great marketing tool at the time.. so then that means the original dwarves were shetlands then right? Granted the mini breeders (who were at the time Shetland breeders marketing the midget ponies) used those dwarves in breeding for the what would be soon called the Miniature horse.. and not for their "Shetland" programs so yes I am agreeing that those Shetland breeders going to market their smaller ponies as midget ponies which then became Miniature horses (thank goodness much better name) really made that dwarf gene prominant in our breed and culled it so to speak out of the Shetlands but if they are one and the same thing.. then the Shetlands were the dwarves used to downsize correct?

Not that it matters what is done is done there is no going back only learning and fixing but I just am wanting to be clear that is all minis came from Shetlands with of course obviously some POA and other breeds thrown in there the dwarf "mini "did not just appear the breeders were all the shetland breeders trying to quickly make a new breed?

 

[Robin]

John could answer this questions better than I can- as he is the only expert I know of that has studied the genetics of the miniature horse to this degree. And anyon ewho knows John, knows his reply would be a book!

If you look back in the miniature pedigrees- which very few exist past 1960, but the few that do- you will see tremendous size decrease within a one generation cross. Now I am not certain that the breeders then realized they were doubling up on a small gene (the recessive dwarf gene), but out comes a much smaller foal. It was the breeders who seeked these small- "exotic circus midget ponies" out and continued to cross them and create even smaller ones. It was an evolution. But what the mini breeders found in the 70s was that if you took a dwarf stallion and bred it to the shetland mares- the resulting foal crop were primarily all smaller than the mares. Making the decrease in size much faster and more predominant. So- yes I would say that minis are shetlands and my guess would be 50% of the minis today go back to a dwarf stallion. Some of the minis are truly bred down Shetlands without the dwarf gene (according to John- it is not always connected to size). However many minis today are bred up from the dwarf mini/shetland crosses.

I am trying to make this simple and easy to understand- so sorry for being so fague and unclear. Like I said my brother would write a book in wonderful detail that would probably lose most of us in the first paragraph! My parents college money went to good use - trust me! Anyway- My Mom remembers when her grandparents came home from an auction with some new mares and a tiny stud. My great grandpa had no idea what his wife wanted with that little stud. But Mom remembers as a little girl she could sit on his back and her feet touched the ground. So- I like to think my great grandparents had a role in the miniature horse today- and they did - a big one- they were the ones who got my mother hooked and so became Little King Farm.

Robin

 

[Robin]

I was re-reading a post- "all things equal". I have to say- equal???? I have never found 2 horses equal. Every horse has attributes and faults- at different degrees of greatness. Yes it is a wonderful site to see the most correct, sound and proportionate horse in a Grand class come from the smaller classes- and it has been done. It is just rare. As we talked today at the youth and amateur seminars we had here at the farm..... It is rare that all things are equal in a class and size is the final would be the deciding point. 9 out of 10 times the faults (and presentation- poor) decide where the horses should be placed and size is never even considered (at least in my experience). Like I said earlier- I choose my placings on correctness, soundness, proportion etc first - all over type or size.

I believe the original statement ..all things equal.... was written in order to give the judges the perception that the intention of the breed (association) was to make the miniature horse smaller because smaller was better and more valuable or exotic. If you recall- small size was all that mattered when breeding the first miniature horses- not quality or type- it was a money making exotic animal- not a show animal bred for form to function or for a purpose.

There are some things that I feel should be "reworded' now that the breed has evolved to where people are driving, jumping, etc making them actually work and perform.

Robin

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

Robin, you are such a great big influence on the breed and I remember many moons ago as a child that I always dreamed of meeting you and seeing your farm. There's many people I have felt like that about. I feel that the things you have said couldn't be said better.

I must say that I have showed both Minis, Shetlands and Hackneys. I love the fire breathing hackneys but they nothing like the Shetlands. Funny how I wish I could figure out and remember the name of the old lady who rescued by pony and several others including the sire. Interesting enough all of these ponies were ponies coming from the Dun-Haven Farm. I do remember the sire of my I believe his name was something like Lornador's Inquisitive. I did get the oppurtunity to meet him though and he was actually registered as a Hackney and Shetland. He was tiny thats for sure and at the time really old.... I want to say easily in his 30s. Anyhow though I do remember this horse was small enough I am sure to be registered as a mini as well but at that time people weren't doing it. I havent been to a breed show in a quite awhile due to life changing circumstances....Sorry for straying I was just remembering the good old days.

Anyways, no one wants health problems through their herd. And as breeders (which I am not) I think you all strive for the best. I think new blood is good but to each their own. If you don't want to cross-breed or out-cross then its simply don't do it. I love Classic and Foundation Shetlands...And in some way or another I think it would be nice to see some sort class division for the old type minis. My mare that I used to own was nothing like the ones that are being shown nowadays. I think they would have sort of a chance competing in halter when going against their type. Heck in performance classes to each their own. I have seen MANY versatile horses in the ring and wouldn't like to see it divided. My mare was such a go-getter she always did her best. She loved to drive and was awesome at jumping and obstacle both at halter and in the cart. God I miss that horse....

OK I think I need to stop... LOL. I think I have lost my train of thought since I have been having to get up and come back to this.. Taking care of Aaron lately has been hard work. He had surgery recently.... Ugghhh I am tired. Once I get my thoughts together I will right again

 

[willowoodstables]

I do remember the sire of my I believe his name was something like Lornador's Inquisitive. I did get the oppurtunity to meet him though and he was actually registered as a Hackney and Shetland. He was tiny thats for sure and at the time really old.... I want to say easily in his 30s. Anyhow though I do remember this horse was small enough I am sure to be registered as a mini as well but at that time people weren't doing it. I havent been to a breed show in a quite awhile due to life changing circumstances....Sorry for straying I was just remembering the good old days.

Hence the need for DNA, there were many many instances of hackneys that had one so called bloodline but in acutal fact were not or where used as shetland outcrosses. Once DNA was introduced it to our breed it made a huge impact on the breeding to a standard with traceable bloodlines and parentage, no question about it. The frauds were weeded out or their offspring had to be re-registered. Mind you we may have a smaller but strong gene pool to trace via DNA.

Breed for the breed, styles have come and gone in my breed, and today the winners are not a style, but an animal of style, substance, quality and a traceable parentage that as a breeder, breeding for MY type, can pick and choose based on past progeny of a certain stallion or farm (ie Cassillis, Dunhaven, Heartland etc).Due to strict studbook restrictions from eons ago, I do not hesitate to have some one dig up Cassillis Masterpiece and get a sample of his DNA and then not have my 2 yr old stallion not trace to him as noted on his papers Masterpiece is a great great grandsire.

Minis are not a breed as of yet but they can get there but still they are a height bred with as many varying colors, styles, etc whereas breeds with true studbooks, years of selective recommondation allowances into the studbook etc can trace foundations. Breeds have certain distinctive looks (ie hackneys, arabs, asbs, thoroughbreds) that are bred for based on the standard. 200 or plus years of selective breeding for a set standard is hard to match, but the miniature horse can do the same, with a selective stud book (published no less), DNA parentage etc etc. It can be done, but with a mixed bag of tricks, and the shetland being picked on, well, it is hard to follow the logic.

Outcrossing was done 200 years ago to get the distinct breed that a group was breeding for. If outcrossing to a shetland of outstanding quality, conformation, temperment etc will get me the standard of a miniature horse, do it, but then make sure on the papers it is not "unknown" but noted as such. I can trace my ponies back to where it has "thoro" beside a name, as in thoroughbred. Don't deny or disallow or pooh pooh the influence some of the greats have had on the miniature horse, unknown at 37" does nothing, but So and So Wonderpony at 37" registered in the studbook was the grandsire etc. Unless the breeders try to be honest and proud of their successful outcrosses, then there will always be a question of what really is the parentage of my mini. Be proud you are at the beginning (60 years is a beginning in the long range forecast) and be true to your breed. Just meet the standard set by your breed, within the allowances (proven by DNA if a must) of your registry but do not ever discount the past outcrosses for giving you your modern version of a mini. I am proud to say the Naragasett (sp) pacer and the thproughbred had a huge influence on the hackney breed.

Kim