SHOCK COLLAR for a MINI????

[Miniv]

Here's one for you..........There's someone who has a mini who has been biting and also trying to kick out at their owner. They've put a Shock Collar on it as a part of training.

Would like to know what people think.........

MA

 

[outlawridge]

I don't know the whole situation here but my knee jerk reaction is two fold... #1 sounds like a human induced problem from lack of early handling/training (and I realize the possibility that these people might not have been the owners till now) and #2..Lazy man's way out, which in turn is going to produce unneccessary stress and fear in the horse. IMHO - NO WAY would I use one.

 

[runamuk]

You know I'd heard there was one for cribbers...did a search and sure enough there are a number of types made just for horses

http://www.gundogsupply.com/vibreltrcofo1.html

I would guess if used properly it could be as good a tool as any.

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Hmmm...I wonder if that would really help with things like teaching them not to stick their heads through the fence....

 

[maestoso]

The following is only based on my experience and opinion.

I have seen these "shock" collars work very effectively, and I feel they are very humane. The collar can be set to many different settings, starting from a shock you can barely even feel, all the way through the shock you might get from a high voltage electric fence, but even the highest shock level will not injure your horse, it just might make them very upset and/or nervous. In my experience the high setting are almost never necessary. It is a tool that shouldn't be used by a beginner or by someone who doesn't fully understand how and when to use it.

It is effective against all vices, weaving, cribbing, pawing, wind-sucking, stall kicking, etc. The only catch is that you literally have to have several consecutive hours of time to just sit and watch your horse. In the first stages of this training you have to catch the vice and shock every single time. If you pick and choose and/or are in and out of the barn and therfor missing it at times, the horse will get confused and the collar will be useless. After the first stages you can put the collar on periodically but it is an outstanding training tool and with the several (large) horses I have seen it used on it has had a 100% success rate in completely eliminating the vice.

 

[twister]

I would be very reluctant to use the electronic collar to teach anything, you have to train the behavior first and then reinforce with the collar. I use a tritronic collar to work with retrievers but I only use it after they know the behavior I want to reinforce and then I only use a low level of stimulation and only for sit, here and go outs for blind retrieves. I have never used one on a horse but Jim Dobbs has - www.dobbsdogs.com and he used it on quarter horses to reinforce their keeping the rope taut on steers.Horses move away from pressure so he built it into the breastplate and again used low stimulation. I emphasise the low because these collars can go up to 18 levels, of all the dogs I train and work with no dog is on more than a level 3 and most are at a 2. I have seen dogs that are trained with high pressure and it is a sin to see the way they work. If you are contemplating using a collar on a horse then please get an expert to help you, they are not a tool to be used in anger and you need somebody experienced to show you how to use one.

Yvonne

 

[maestoso]

Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.

 

[twister]

Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.

Yes Matt I do use the collar to reinforce positive behaviors and the way Jim was using it on quarter horses is the same way.

Yvonne

 

[runamuk]

Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.

The e-collar is always a negative stimulus. Even when used to reinforce a positive behavior. The manner of use is what is important, you need to know what your doing or else like any negative stimulus it can backfire and reinforce a negative behavior. Heck undoing negative behavior caused by positive stimulus is all too common a dog problem

Twister trains bird dogs so can probably elaborate much further on the science/theory behind it.

I use my e-collar for some boundary training, and bark control on one dog (vice breaking essentially). My husband uses it when he is training the bird dog (reinforcing positive behaviors) and still only with guidance, it is a powerful tool and has its place but one needs to really know what they are doing.

 

[Katiean]

I had a TB (off the race track) that was a well practiced wind sucker. He did not even need a stall gate or fence rail to grab a hold of. He would just stretch his neck out even in the cross ties and start sucking. He had evidently been beat for this and one day he did it in front of me. I yelled "Randy, NO!!" The horse freaked. He broke one of the ties and banged his head on the wall violently. I kept a collar on him in the stall and paddock. But he still wind sucked. I think an electronic collar would have been safer and could have helped him. I don't think I would use it for kicking or biting. But for wind sucking, it could have it's use. If I had another Randy I might buy a collar.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.

The only part I disagree with is where Matt says "You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement." Believe me, you can! Clicker training does just that quite nicely by having you reinforce the horse for a conflicting behavior. For instance the horse cannot physically paw if they are backing up, moving forward, or even holding one hind leg in the air (a goofy example, I know). Teach them to do something else, use positive reinforcement on that behavior, and the negative behavior, in this case pawing, will fade away in favor of the reinforced behavior. Horses develop vices because it gets them something- either it relieves stress, gets them attention, or it feels good even if only by releasing endorphins. The first and most important step in breaking those vices therefore is to remove the positive reinforcement from it. Make it NOT pleasant/fun, NOT attention-getting. The second and often regrettably overlooked step is to give them something else to do in its place that is equally rewarding. You don't tell your wild child in the grocery store "Don't do that, don't do that, hey don't do that either!" All that does is invite them to come up with something else annoying to try. Instead you ask them to get Item X for you off that shelf over there, have them push the cart, and invite them to sound out the shopping list with you. Good job, son! Much more fun for everyone.

Of course the other most important thing is to figure out why they were driven to doing it in the first place! If your horse is stressed, maybe they need more turnout time and a different approach to their training. Always consider the cause before treating the symptoms.

Leia

 

[maestoso]

Leia, if a horse paws for examle, maybe it is because they are bored. While redirecting that behavior to a new behavior is likely to teach the horse that it will get positive reinforcement for the new behavior, it is unlikely that the horse will forget the negative behavior.

Let's take smoking in humans for example. Let's say Im a smoker and want to quit, so I re-direct myself and go to the gym instead. While the gym may make me feel healthier, I wouldn't forget about smoking, no matter how much weight I lost, or how great shape I got in.

The horse might learn that if it backs up(your example of redirecting pawing) it will get positive reinforcement, but when you are away, and the horse gets bored, you are not there to provide the positive reinforcement and it will go back to pawing.

With the collar, there is little human contact, so the horse does not relate human interaction with any reinforcement, positive or negative. It just learns that if it paws, it gets a shock. This is why you need a lot of time to devote to the training in the beginning though.

I understand where you are coming from, and I would agree that if you were teaching a horse to DO something, positive reinforcement is by far the best way to do it. But I just don't think it works with discouraging a horse from certain behaviors. Teaching a horse to bow, for example, is much different then teaching a horse NOT to paw.

For the record, I don't smoke

I think it is a disgusting habit.

 

[Marty]

hmmmmmm Not a fan of any shock treatments..........nope because horses are flighty enough. I'd find another way to correct the problem.

 

[ClickMini]

The best way to get rid of unwanted behavior is to train an incompatible behavior. A horse can't bite and turn its head away from you for instance. A horse can't rear when its nose is on the ground.

In my experience people turn towards these training shortcuts when they have run out of experience and imagination. They don't know where else to turn.

I do train pretty much with positive reinforcement. I am not 100%, I definitely do still operate in all four quadrants of the training spectrum. However, in order for positive punishment (adding an unwanted stimulus to the environment in order to reduce the incidence of a behavior) to work, it has to be delivered WHILE the unwanted behavior is occurring (during the bite, not after), it has to be delivered with a minimum of emotion attached, and has to be 100% consistent. Most people don't have that kind of timing or consistency.

I feel it is much more effective for someone to teach the horse an incompatible behavior, as I described above. I walk through my herds of horses, big and small, with my pockets stuffed full of treats and never get mugged by them. I can hold a carrot under my horses' noses and they will not take it until after I have clicked them. Some of these horses were problem horses before, some were wild and unhandled, and some were babies. So they came with different amounts of baggage, etc. But they are all now very polite creatures, and that is because of the ground training I do with them. And I am very, very consistent.

 

[Marty]

.........and this is another reason why I love Clicky

 

[AnnaC]

Hobbyhorse, Marty, Clicky

I do so agree with you. There is nothing to beat early training/training at any time of the horses life to help overcome 'bad' habits. You have to work out WHY the horse does it in the first place. Boredom, stress etc etc are not IMO things that can be stopped with e-collars, something else will 'pop up' if the cause is not sorted out at base.

Many many years ago when I had a livery yard (american barn/indoor boxes style) I had a mare come in that weaved so badly she would fling off her front shoes. She came from a long term good home, but had always weaved. She was 14 years old and a really hyper type. Can you imagine what she would have been like if we had used a collar on her! In the 'barn' I had another 12 horses, ranging from 2 to 12 years, incuding 2 stallions. None of the other horses picked up/copied her weaving. At the end of 2 years she returned to her owner's (girl had been away at uni) place and the weaving had STOPPED - she never weaved again! What did I do to that mare? NOTHING! She was exercised, had time out daily with friends, went to shows and LIVED IN A CALM PEACEFUL ATMOSPHERE with other calm, happy and contented horses. It was my other horses that worked the miracle for her, plus they also did it for several 'cribbers'!

Time is a great healer and time is what must be given when dealing with horse 'problems' IMO.

Anna

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am a fairly long time user and supporter of the e-collars for dogs- the ones available in Europe do not have the settings available in America to anyone (it seems) and here to the Services only.

Not so long ago a Police officer killed his dog "training" it with one of the de-regulation devices which led to a HUGE outcry against them all, and a general calling for them to be banned, which it looks as if they will be.

I shall continue to use mine!!

I would NEVER use one on a horse- they are flight animals who pick up neuroses as a result purely of human mismanagement.

If the collar were to be used to attempt to stop a neuroses I really do believe the horse would go into melt down.

I do not agree with their use in reining horses either- the "positive" side is, IMO a nonsense- how can you use pain, at any level, as a positive reinforcement??

You use PRAISE and REWARD as a positive reinforcement.

When I "Beep" my dogs (and the sound is all they need 9 times o/o ten, they return to the safety zone- my leg, here it is safe, here there is NEVER punishment, here they are rewarded.

I have a sonic collar on my "new" dog as he is an attention barker.

Once it has beeped him a couple of times he actually comes to me and waits for it to be taken off, then he remembers not to bark- he is not a daft dog!!

A sonic collar might work on a weaver- it would have no effect on a wind sucker, nothing does.

The ONLY thing that actually works, long term and forever, as Anna has so ably demonstrated, is removing the cause of the actions.

If a horse is bored and paws, and you shock it, it will have hysterics and find something else to do, if you shock it for that I seriously think it will eventually have a breakdown- we have all seen show horses standing with their heads in the corner, their ears felt and their eyes glazed over.

I can only hope that, in their heads, they are running free.

When you use a collar on a dog you do it to control the animal- gundogs working cover go completely deaf, a beep followed by a command followed by, if there is no response a short reprimand and then immediate praise soon teach it the wisdom of returning to call.

What exactly are you teaching the horse??

To stand still all day and be bored out of it's tiny mind because YOU want it to stand still??

Even though every instinct in it's body is telling it to move forward steadily, grazing??

It has no food, it has shavings to stand on, it has NOTHING to do, so it weaves and it gets an electric shock??

No, sorry, I call that abuse, not training!!!

Even though I do not use clicker training per se and never shall, any real trainer understands that the ONLY way to actually train an animal is consistency, reward, and action- the reward for standing still quietly for a few minutes will be forward movement and freedom, etc (I do not have to explain all this to you, do I??)

Punishing a horse is fairly pointless, it relieves human tension and rarely has a lasting effect on the animal, and an e-collar is a punishment, there is no other way it can be used IME.

Now, reprimanding a horse, immediately and sharply, for something such as kicking or biting is a whole different ball game...........

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I never thought of using one on a mini and fortunately haven't had the need.

BUT..... I do have a great dane. He is 120 pound puppy. I did use a shock collar for several weeks and it worked great. It has a "sound" button that you use prior to the shock. I shocked him a total of three times. If he needs a refresher course, I simply put the collar on and use the reminder "noise" with a no, or command. Great Danes need help with getting their attention, and the noise on the collar reminded him that he had better listen to me.

In the case of using it on the colt.... I think maybe it might be worth a try if you have tried all the other ways to stop biting.... for a few reasons.

Biting hurts and can be dangerous, and its a reflex to give him a good smack when you are bit. Can make him head shy or hand shy depending where you smack him. (Certainly should not be his face or head)

Using the shock , is like a smack but he doesn't see it coming or become afraid of humans or hands.

I bet it would work providing you use a LOUD "NO!!!" along with it, so he gets the idea that NO means NO BITE.

I have never had a colt that didn't PASS THROUGH that nipping stage( I think many do it to some degree) Usually they nip a few times, get corrected and its done. I have never had a "BITER", I "nip" it in the bud(excuse the pun)

I for one, if I had a persistent biter would try it, after I tried all the other ways. After all, children's faces are level with mini horse mouths, it would be such a danger to a child especially, not just a bruise on an adult.

It is no less humane than using electric fence, and you can dial in the degree of shock with these collars, however it would be the last form of correction on my list.

Robin

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Wow Matt--you seem to really know your shock collars and a lot about human and animal psychology. You weren't perhaps a psych major were you?

Man...if I even THOUGHT about trying anything like a shock collar on my horses (esp. my Rainy!) I would get kicked to the moon!! She would somehow KNOW I did it and hunt me down...

Amy

 

[Georgine]

I don't like the sound of a shock collar for my horses, or dogs, and couldn't do it.

As Twister said, if you have proper training to use the devices there may be a place for them to be used.

Possibly people who use them on their animals might want to do a "personal test" with them first.

A suggestion would be to put the collar around your own neck to get an idea of the strength of voltage or pain being caused.

I saw a young man on Americas Funniest Videos wearing a shock collar and being given ever increasing jolts. It looked pretty painful, although he was laughing once it stopped.

In the past, or possibly it still happens, people were given shock treatments to correct mental problems, which is the idea of shock collars, I suppose.

I thought that human shock treatments were "barbaric" as well.