SHOCK COLLAR for a MINI????

[hhpminis]

I truly think we may be getting stuck on words here. I am not disagreeing with anything you have said, I think we are similar in thinking, just term it differently.

Discipline is not bad physical treatment or something that brings pain mentally or physically, it can be but doesn't need to be and most of the time shouldn't be. Reward and reprimand are similar in this. I always set my animals up to succeed and follow through with an action as if I expect it from them. Usually you get it.

Reprimand comes in to play when they dont do as you ask or fail to follow through on an expected action. This may be for different reasons and that is the key to proper discipline (reinforcement, campatible, incompatible behavior, high, low reward, whatever we want to call it) and can only come when you know your animal. A reprimand because they are afraid is far different from a reprimand if they are acting out of disrespect or a challenge. A reprimand of a horse that is scared may be as little as some soft words and body language to show them they are OK and it is not going to hurt them, the lesson for the day may be that they approached the challenge with a good attitude and it ends there to be taken a step further the next lesson. As long as they put forth an effort to try.

A reprimand of a horse that is coming at you with a challenge or disrespect needs a stronger quicker reprimand to avoid harm to you and the animal. This also is done with a positive mental attitude, not one of anger or fear on your part, but authority and assuredness. This manner too, will depend on the horse that is doing the challenge.

I truly think we are thinking similar just stating things in different ways. I dont care for the term positive punishment as it denotes a negativity, but that is me.

I do not see how praise, pats and scratches can be called positive punishment. I keep a very positive mental state when working with each animal and I dont expect them to do things that they are not ready for or that they cannot physically or mentally do.

Whatever form of training you choose to use it still is simple, reward the good, reprimand the bad. Use whatever term or phrase you want. The action given for completing a task as asked is different than the action given for not performing as asked. Tomato tomaato LOL I guess I am just simple folk.

edited to add, and no sarcasm intended

If you do not ask your animal to do more than you think they are ready to do, the reprimands, (that is my word of choice) are kept to a minimum. The positive reinforcement (also my term of choice) will be the majority of the animals experience with learning new things.

As far as vices, I totally agree, find the reason and adjust the environment to discourage them from doing it whatever that will entail, it is often trial and error. The less opportunity you give them to do their bad habit the more seldom they do it therefore becoming less of a habit and perhaps eventually not exist anymore.

 

[maestoso]

I think that it is completely speculative to say that "most" would not realize success with such a device, especially considering you have never used it. In fact it is quite the contrary, I have known several horses/owners that have had great success with it. Like any other training method, you can't say it probably won't work until you try it. You can certainly say that you wouldn't try it, for one reason or another, but because you haven't used it, and since it sounds as though you don't know anyone who has, to say that "most" wouldn't find success, what is that based on?

I consider barn vices much different from teaching a horse to lead, get into the trailer, to do a trick, teach it to drive, ride, etc.... Those are all behaviors that involve human interaction. Vices happen with or without a human present. While I agree that vices can be related to boredom or stress, and that there are things you can try first, such as rearranging things, eliminating a noise, moving horses around, adding a jolly ball, leaving the door open with a stall guard etc, With some horses non of this will discourage the horse from the vice. Smokers know it is bad for them, they know the side effects, and can plan alternate activities during cravings, but will this always break their habit? No, because it becomes psychological, it is the same with horses. You can give a horse a million things to do, but if it is ingrained in his head to paw, he likely will paw. The collar, which to reiterate does not induce pain, just uncomfort, teaches the horse that a certain behavior yields a consequence.

And as far as the "looking away/sneezing/not being there" argument, the same can be said for your methods. When you are not there, who is redirecting the horse to the incompatible behavior???

 

[ClickMini]

Annette that definitely was a terminology misunderstanding, as praise, pats, and other goodness is positive reinforcement.

Scientific terminology for behavior stuff. It is confusing at times even for those who work with it day in and day out.

You are a trainer I know "does it right," and are one I would trust my beloved little friends with anytime!

And Matt, it just isn't necessary to use that stuff IMO. You don't shock people to teach them do you? Yet they learn. Shocking does not create a healthy learning environment. I won't argue with you about it anymore, because it is obvious that you have a belief system in which it is okay to do such things. I believe that animals are thinking, feeling beings, and they don't deserve that kind of treatment.

 

[mininik]

How can discipline be positive? In operant conditioning, with positive reinforcement there is no discipline, no reprimand, no corrections. Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior is followed by a favorable stimulus that increases the frequency of that behavior. On the other hand, positive punishment occurs when a behavior is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. If you tell a seasoned horse to whoa and it steps off, do you pat him or ignore it and send him back into a whoa? Most Halter trainers I know do not, they have established a consequence and that is okay, it's just not proper terminology to label it as positive reinforcement.

 

[ClickMini]

TERMINOLOGY CLARIFICATION from the scientific standpoint.

Reinforcement = strengthen a behavior

Punishment = suppress a behavior

Positive = add something

Negative = remove something

Positive reinforcement = Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior.

Negative reinforcement = Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior.

Positive punishment = Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior.

Negative punishment = Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior.

Excerpted from Click for Joy: Questions and Answers from Clicker Trainers and Their Dogs by Melissa Alexander

Where it can get confusing, for example is...where does positive punishment end and negative reinforcement start? Once a person has been studying for a while it is clear that the delineation is in the intent. Are you trying to suppress or strengthen a behavior? Otherwise it is two sides to the same coin, isn't it? Yes it may vary in intensity, etc., but a good trainer of any animal is aware of where they are operating in that behavior quadrant and be able to use that information.

 

[hhpminis]

How can discipline be positive? In operant conditioning, with positive reinforcement there is no discipline, no reprimand, no corrections. Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior is followed by a favorable stimulus that increases the frequency of that behavior. On the other hand, positive punishment occurs when a behavior is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. If you tell a seasoned horse to whoa and it steps off, do you pat him or ignore it and send him back into a whoa? Most Halter trainers I know do not, they have established a consequence and that is okay, it's just not proper terminology to label it as positive reinforcement.

Nikki, like I said, you say tomato, I say tomaato, I have not read the scientific books and articles on positive, negative, reinforcement, punishment. Thank you Amy for the scientific definition. But, the fact of the matter is that basically we are talking the same thing. Just different terminology and I am not going to get caught up in a word game but yes there can be positive discipline.

I do not offer positive reinforcement for wrong behavior. I reprimand and then when they react positively to the reprimand, I then can offer positive reinforcement. So yes according to your terminology, I do use positive punishment, I just personally do not care for that term.

All of my training methods, according to the actual defintion are discipline.

Here is the different defintions of discipline. Most are not negative or involve physical punishment as you can see by the ones I bolded.

dis·ci·pline [ díssəplin ]

noun (plural dis·ci·plines)

Definition:

1. training to ensure proper behavior: the practice or methods of teaching and enforcing acceptable patterns of behavior

2. order and control: a controlled orderly state, especially in a class of schoolchildren

3. calm controlled behavior: the ability to behave in a controlled and calm way even in a difficult or stressful situation

4. conscious control over lifestyle: mental self-control used in directing or changing behavior, learning something, or training for something

5. education activity or subject: a subject or field of activity, e.g. an academic subject

6. punishment: punishment designed to teach somebody obedience

7. christianity church rules: the system of rules used in a religious denomination or order

verb (past and past participle dis·ci·plined, present participle dis·ci·plin·ing, 3rd person present singular dis·ci·plines)

Definition:

1. vr make yourself do something regularly: to make yourself act or work in a controlled or systematic way

2. transitive verb punish somebody: to punish somebody as a way of enforcing obedience

3. transitive verb teach somebody obedience: to teach somebody to obey rules or to behave in an acceptable way

[13th century. Directly or via French< Latin disciplina "instruction given to a learner" < discipulus (see disciple)]

 

[kaykay]

I so agree with annette and this is how I train horses and dogs with of course subtle differences. A few years ago I got flamed pretty badly on the back porch for insisting that if someone doesnt have time to train a puppy they shouldnt get one. IMO it equals abuse. If you dont have time to train a foal/horse then again you shouldnt get one. Its just not fair to the animal.

I will never be a fan of shortcuts and would never put a shock collar on a dog or horse. I have a friend that has used a shock collar on her dog now for 5 years. Umm obviously its not really working to change any behavior or she wouldnt have to keep using it 5 years later.

I know when I take on any animal especially a young one that I am going to have to spend time working with and training that animal. So many people anymore want instant gratification and dont want to spend the actual time it takes to train an animal properly.

I also have never trained dogs or horses with food as a reward and have always been totally against that.

I had to use a stud chain two times on a particular stallion that had not been taught to respect humans and especially bad about space and leading. It only took using the chain 2 times and I never had to do it again. Also it was NOT over his nose. He was only 30" but was built like a brick wall.

Matt I dont think you can compare smoking to barn vices. When smokers quit smoking they not only go through mental withdraw but they also go thru physical withdraw from nicotine.

IMO stall vices usually occur because the horse is stalled way too much. The simplest solution is to simply stop stalling the horse so much

 

[outlawridge]

I will never be a fan of shortcuts and would never put a shock collar on a dog or horse.

Shortcut was precisely why I said "lazy man's way out" in my first post. And I stand by my comment "NO WAY would I use one." And my hubby, who is a professional trainer and clinician of mainly full sized horses, was appalled at the very idea. He uses non-resistant methods at all times with great success. His motto is "Always ask Never force". He also says there are many different ways to get the end result..3+1=4 and 2+2=4 etc and not every way is correct or "right" for every person or animal, however, this is one he would never use either. And truly, no insult intended to other's opinions, he did have an interesting idea.... "Why doesn't everyone who thinks up these types of tools have them tried out on themselves for a few days first?"

 

[runamuk]

I am curious how is any tool a "shortcut"...lets get real a shock collar is no more or less a short cut than a clicker or treat or for that matter halter and lead

all tools when used correctly have benefits and drawbacks. And even clicker's and treats can be used in completely wrong ways. I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.

The tool has no effect on its own the intent and use by the person determines the effectiveness. I've yet to see a whip act independent of the hand controlling it

 

[maestoso]

How do people here feel about twitches......? If you have used a twitch before but think the collar is abuse, please explain what you feel the differences are.

 

[outlawridge]

I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.

Wow, evidently they really were not trained at all!

How do people here feel about twitches......? If you have used a twitch before but think the collar is abuse, please explain what you feel the differences are.

Never used a twitch so can't answer that, as I never had a reason to. Always used a different approach and not always the same approach, but with success. But yes, I am one that would not use the collar (did not call it abuse though).

 

[runamuk]

I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.

Wow, evidently they really were not trained at all!

Well many seem to think giving an animal a treat for looking cute is training

and that can go very wrong when that cute foal is now 15 hands and insisting on being boss with teeth and feet OH! OH!

 

[outlawridge]

Well many seem to think giving an animal a treat for looking cute is training

and that can go very wrong when that cute foal is now 15 hands and insisting on being boss with teeth and feet OH! OH!

You said it!

 

[hhpminis]

I apologize, my response to this post got off topic a bit.

So...back to my original statement. I have never used one. However, I have had enough experience in life that I will not say that I never will use one as never is a very big word. As I said before, each horse is different and sometimes you are faced with a situation that you have to try something new as nothing you have done in the past works on this particular horse.

Also want to add, that this would be an unlikely tool for me as personally, I hate to get shocked. It makes me really angry. I have memories of my brothers grabbing me and then they touch the fence to shock me. I hated it then and I still hate it. And yes, I have been shocked by a shock collar, I did not like it.

I am going to put up some electric fence this winter/spring as I am making stallion runs, but this will be the first electric fence I have ever used. As a matter of fact, I bought the fencer and materials to do it almost a year ago and have not been able to make myself put it up.

I obviously have an issue with electric shock.

 

[Katiean]

You don't shock people to teach them do you?

Shocking people to learn. This might work for people that smoke. LOL

Really, I think in extreme cases the shock collar might have it's place. I know these habits were caused by people. But, it falls to the next guy to fix the problem.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

With a dog, possibly, with a horse, an animal with COMPLETELY different behaviour patterns, No, it is an abusive shortcut.

I have the greatest sympathy for someone who has "inherited" a horse with annoying habits such s weaving BUT it was their choice to do so.

I have a horse that stall walks- a true neurosis caused by a violent accident - I can assure you that a shock collar would not work.

There have been times when I would cheerfully have used a sledge hammer if I had thought it would work!!!

What works is managing the horse, in exactly the same way as managing the horse allows my animals to live out on good grass without foundering.

It is a LOT more work and it is the side of horsemastership that I have always loved- riding I could take or leave and have long since left.

I use a shock collar on one Dobe bitch because she will attack smaller dogs and when they are not mine it is embarrassing- it was a judgement call, use the collar or have her PTS as all other methods had failed.

She was attacking out of insecurity, not anger, and this is the most difficult behaviour to eradicate.

The collar controlled her and, whilst she was wearing it, she felt "safe"- ie controlled- she exhibited, after the initial couple of low grade warnings, immediate response to my commands and returned to the safety zone by my leg at once, when she even saw a small, edible, dog.

The collars I use on the other two are completely and totally to shock them when they attack my oldest dog- to prevent them killing her- again, when they wear the collars they look at her sideways but they do not attack, I have only to "beep" them and they come to heel- the times they are all together outside are very limited so the necessity to wear the collars is negligible.

Al;though I can see them being useful as a training device for Gundogs (for which purpose they were originally invented) I can see no place for them in the "pet owners" training- I have not met one of my "pet dog owners" at my "Dog School" that I would trust to use such a device.

To punish a horse, an animal devised by nature to move all day, and to be able to move or to die, for developing a neurosis because it cannot do this, is abuse (misuse of..unjust practice [O.E.D.])

I can see a real use for "invisible fencing" but this is control, not training, as has been pointed out- and it would not work for horses- electric fencing does not really work for horses, I have two who will "grin and bear it" and walk through any fence.

The animals that has reputably been "trained" not to crib or weave with a shock collar will, I can assure you, return to this behaviour once the collar is removed and the punishment withdrawn.

Almost nothing on earth will cure weaving- a number of things will prevent it, not allowing the horse to become bored in the first place is one of them.

Windsuckers can be treated, in the first instance, with a course of Gastroguard and a mild sedative- if the cause is ulcers the behaviour sometimes goes away when the cause is removed, but it is a very addictive behaviour.

OT here, but relevant- has anyone ever tried hypnosis on a dog or horse??

Bonnie, do you know of it being tried???

 

[Shortpig]

I can think of a few uses for that shock collar. I said get a glass don't be drinking out of the carton.

Didn't I tell you to leave that cake alone until after dinner? Hello! I'm talking to you! For the last time I said get out of that bed and clean your room.

Okay so you get the point!

Have a great day!

 

[Georgine]

In answer to Matt's question about using twitches........I don't like twitches but find that for some of my 27 little ones I need to use a small plastic clip (Homedepot purchase) which works like a snap clothes pin, and I "clip it on their nose" during hoof trimming and sometimes when I am clipping legs if they are jumpy.

In a short while they stop the unwanted actions and concentrate on the clip.

I have put the clip on myself and it pinches, but is bearable.

Any of our horses that were raised here are well behaved due to a lot of handling from birth.

Of the ones that we have purchased a couple seem like they were never touched so they are more of a challenge.

With the minis I find that lots of handling and taking them to fairs and events where they get a lot of human interaction usually settles them.

Interestingly and off topic a bit, I heard yesterday on the radio that there are more deaths due to horse accidents than due to any other animal versus human event. (likely because there are more humans interacting with horses than with tigers/bears/sharks.. etc)

That being said full size horses can certainly harm us and require us to be in control and safe.

Even our minis could kill, if a kick is placed in the wrong spot.

 

[Farmhand]

I am very sorry to say but this was a "set-up" question just to get people to argue on this forum so some certain people can laugh at it..

Looks like it worked to some extent OH!

 

[kaykay]

I want to say this. I am hurt beyond words. Never in a million years did I think the person who started this thread would do something like this. I feel betrayed by several people in this "group" that I have liked and admired for years and other people who had a part in this. I am so shocked that I dont even have the words to express fully how I feel or how disappointed I am in the people behind this. The only thing I can imagine is that these people's lives are lacking something that would enable them to act in this way and say the things that have been said. For these people who know who they are I feel sad for you. This has definitely been a wake up call for me.