Silly question from the green owner...

[LeahMurray]

Hi, folks,

Ok, here's the situation:

Last year, my youngest horse, Dancer, who is 7-ish and a husky 34" (gelded), had been exposed to a nasty flu bug that was going through the barn, and started to get a runny nose, temp, etc.: vet said give him a couple or three days of his liquid penicillin doses which I had on hand.

The experienced trainer and judge associated with the barn said, "Can do, but it would be easier to just give him a shot for that once a day. We have the stuff on hand, let's go give him his first dose, and you can see how it's done."

Now Dancer at that point had been loafing around in the pastures for about four-five years, no handling, not expected to do anything at all other than just whatever Dancer wanted to do. I had gotten him to the point of standing for me groom him and pick his feet after months of patient and careful and stubborn persistent work, and he would come when called, AND he would let me bathe him with a sponge and a bucket but not in the shower stall (he rears in the shower, throws his front feet around, bucks and generally behaves like a disgusting little brat).

So the trainer goes and fills up the syringe and brings it along, and Dancer won't let her touch him, dances off sideways from whichever direction she comes from. She says, "We'll twitch him, that'll settle him down," and duly does so. Well, Dancer waits patiently until she takes the twitch off and goes for his butt with the needle, and then he stands up on his hind legs and throws me clear across the aisleway into the arena wall, and knocks the hired man who was holding his head flat on his butt, and then Dancer slips and falls on the concrete floor.

I get up, and say, "Ok, enough of that nonsense, he gets the oral suspension for sure!" and check him over -- he's shaking, but he's not hurt in spite of the upset, so I go get the oral suspension and he takes it like a little angel.

I think, "Ok, he's not wildly in love with this trainer, I know, and he really didn't like that needle, she must have hit a nerve or something. Nonetheless, he needs some more manners training anyhow: this was just downright dangerous." So I enroll him with a different trainer who he likes and who he trusts, and they make good progress, and my little brat starts to show signs of becoming the little gentleman I knew he could be.

(Yes, I know, I should be training him myself, but hey, his current trainer has 30 years of experience with horses to my three, she won't teach him any bad habits that will have to be broken later out of ignorance or inexperience, and I can't take any of that money with me past the grave anyhow, so I might just as well spend it on my horse, right? Keep your trainers employed!)

So yesterday, a new vet comes to vaccinate everyone, and turns out she knows him from years gone by, and he's ALWAYS been a right little twerp when it comes to the vet -- she had the unenviable task of gelding him, it seems, and he was a total little monster for that.

Well, it was as if he'd been standing in the pasture for all these months: he reared, he bucked, he screamed, he jumped around all over the place, he absolutely refused to let anyone near him with the needles, and by the time they were done with the first two shots, they had to tie him to a post in the arena and snub him down tight just to get anywhere near him. At that point, he started trying to pull the post out of the ground.

Finally, he wore himself out with all this, and got himself stuck into the corner of the post and the gate, and they got the last shot into him.

So my question is, what now?

I can't let him continue like this: it's totally unacceptable that he carries on like this for shots.

How do I get him around this one?

Note that he will stand there and watch while we give his two older brothers shots without turning a hair, and that he is perfectly fine with me giving him a dose of wormer or flushing out his mouth with salt water or something using a syringe: he never kicks up a big deal like this when I'm handling the syringe or when his brothers are the objects of interest to the business end of the needle.

I've never tried giving him a shot, though, so have no clue what he will do if I did try it -- but I can imagine!

He seems to have a real thing about vets or anyone else giving him needles, though, and I can't let him carry on like this. Advice will be most welcome and gratefully received.

Leah M.

(Whose elderly boys came through this winter in the pink, thanks to new blankies and making sure they got fed apart from all the other horses at least once every two days this year -- yay!)

 

[Reble]

I just found this that is not for shots, but maybe something here might help. Try with a pen that clicks in and out.

How do we attack our problem? How else…but with a well defined lesson plan!

First let's look at the 'root' of the problem. The clipper, bit, dewormer tube or dental instruments represent a level of pressure that the horse can't handle. Instead of starting with what he can't handle, we need to look for the level the horse can comfortably handle. To find this comfort level, the horse needs to be comfortable with us in his territory…. walking up to him, rubbing him all over with our hands. We don't want to just focus on his face. We then can teach him to drop his head and give his nose. This "giving" also represents increased levels of pressure. With practice, the horse will eventually be comfortable leaving his head down and his nose to the side. We want the horse to enjoy this relaxed place as it's where we want his head….to halter, bridle, deworm, clip, medicate, etc.

When your horse drops his head, he is learning to give to pressure. We can practice this when he's standing or when we're leading him. To improve our horse's level even further we can ask him to drop his head while leading him in different locations, with different distractions all the while practicing his standing and walking skills. Long term, this will improve your horse's handle ability and your horse will be envied by your friends!

But let's get back to the fact that we want to deworm, bridle or whatever. How do we keep moving toward our goal? Rummage. What? Where? Simple, look around your barn and house for many different items that you can rub all over your horse. You want a variety of items …the first ones you use should be nonthreatening, ones that will be easy for your horse to deal with….eventually progressing to the specific item or skill that's been the big boogie. Examples of items you will want to include are deworming tubes (clean them out), paint stirrer sticks, towels, sponges, tinfoil, plastic bags, scratchy pads, feather duster, tube socks…be creative.

A few basic rules. Arrange and present these things to your horse in a progression from easy to hard. But first begin with your hands. Your horse has to be comfortable with your hands before using the first item, and you can add in noises, blowing and kisses as you sack out with your hands. Keep in mind though your horse needs to be comfortable before you get your face close to his…i.e. if you want to avoid a bloody nose. Then pick up your first easy item. Your horse will most likely act like it is no big deal. Don't quit there, before grabbing the next add a little extra oomph by making noises, kisses and blowing air. Eventually you will get thru the entire series and your horse's confidence level will mature along the way...until you reach your goal.

Many of the things that we require of our horse are something we may not have the opportunity to do everyday. But never fear, here are some tips for training in between those times and your horses consistency will get even better.

Bridling. Don't practice with a bit. You can sack the horse out with the noise and the headstall hanging off his ears, etc. But only put the bit in once and leave it there until you're finished with the session and are ready to take it off. Before this momentous occasion… practice with a half inch diameter rope attached to a headstall or just use a big loop. This will allow you to practice and perfect your technique, it also allows the horse to get more comfortable and avoids bumping the metal bit on his teeth.

Deworming. Add a last step. Applesauce or molasses taste great and wear even better. Find out which your horse will lick out of a bucket and fill your empty deworming syringe with it. Make sure the stuff is slopped over the tube. Everyday that you can…after catching and grooming your horse…give him a treat with the syringe. Soon he will be sucking it out of the tube before you get to push the plunger in! When the day comes for the dewormer. It should go smoothly! You can even put a little of the good stuff on the outside of the syringe if it makes you feel better.

Clipping. Get a battery operated unit. First massage the horse over its whole body with the clipper off. Then go across the room and turn it on for a split second and build till you can leave it run for a bit. Next walk toward the horse messing with the clipper with no intention of touching the horse. Remember, if this is as close as you can get with the clipper running fine, build on this OR back up. But if you've done every step well…you will be massaging your horse in no time turning the clipper on and off. The first time "don't plan to get your horse clipped"! Just massage, clip some hair, massage and then clip some more hair. Continue each day with the same sequence. Your horse will begin to enjoy the massaging. You can also get a little battery operated hand massager that will not only feel good, but add a new element of noise. Be sure to frequently clean and oil your clipper….don't let it get hot…and make sure those blades are sharp. Nothing worse than dull blades that snatch and jerk each hair out by the root!

Teeth. Want your vet to love you? Handle your horse's mouth, lips and tongue frequently. Check your horse's capillary refill time so you know what is normal. Take a new paint stirrer stick and practice putting it in your horse's mouth…a bit of molasses will make it even tastier. Finally, use it just like the vet uses her floating tools.

Gee whiz, you can also use it as a rasp…pick up his foot and rub it on the hoof and then your farrier will love you, too!

The key is that you are convinced that your horse is going to succeed. Don't change or lower your expectations or your horse will wonder what's up! By this time, he's the best horse ever was and he belongs to you…just be sure to let him know it.

He needs to feel relaxed and learns to trust you.

Good Luck

 

[Jill]

I used to have one that was usually terrible for shots. I sold him and when the vet came out to do shots on him before he left, I knew he'd be a pill yet for the first time ever, he stood like a statue for it!

Over the years with that horse, I thought of but never followed through with blindfolding him and then grooming him. To get him used to being blindfolded thinking then when it was time to give him shots, he wouldn't see it coming.

Also, he was horrid for deworming and took me a couple years to figure it out but the last few times we did that, I got his lead and the tube ready to put in his mouth, then had my husband "suddenly" grab up a hind leg and at the same time, I popped the tube in his mouth and that did the trick. It's possible that could work on your guy for shots?

Other things you can do is a lip twitch (which I'm thinking is the kind of one you all already did? I'd have left it on for the shot, not taken it off!!!), twist his ear in your hand (like twist it then hold it twisted in your fist), and also grab his tail and yank and hold it up tight. That one comes from my vet and I must say, it does take shot adverse horses back a notch or two!

A friend of mine trains minis and seriously, it's been true that some of these little angels require two handlers and one person to do the shot! Most of them just sand quiet and have no apparent reaction from getting a shot, but the ones that are pills more than make up for the ones that make it easy.

And, I'm sure not being handled a lot is part of the problem, but my horse that was terrible about getting shots was highly trained (basically in professional training from 1yo - 4yo!) and drove, did halter, obstacles, showmanship, etc. He was extensively handled but very upset by shots and by deworming.

 

[Lauralee]

I have had a few of those shot haters over the years.

One teenage mare was a doll and a lovebug except for shots. Well when she got kicked in the eye, she required shots TWICE A DAY for a month to save her vision. After the first week of thrashing, she finally accepted her shots like a big girl.

Another mare was raised without the proper handling. She has the hotter attitude even on a good day. I have abandoned giving her shots as it takes MONTHS for her to forgive me for it. So for her, the VET gives her vaccinations and only the bare minimum necessary (30 days before foaling!).

Each horse is different. Some can learn to accept them over time and some will NEVER accept them. You have to decide if it is worth that much headache to be able to administer shots to that individual. If he flips out and breaks your arm, or busts his head open, was it really worth it to have given the shot? To me, no. If it causes that much havoc then he'd just receive only the basic vaccinations at the appropriate individuals and it would be administered BY THE VET with me out of the horses's sight. Let the vet be the bad guy.

One good method is to go ahead and train this horse to accept a war bridle (a "big" horse trainer can help you make one). This will keep the horses' head DOWN. Once he learns how to wear the war bridle, he can then receive his shots IN AN ENCLOSED STALL with 2 assistants. The war bridle will prevent him from flipping over and rearing up. With his butt in the corner of the stall, he'll have no choice but to stay put. This is ONLY something that experienced horse-persons should attempt! After his shots are given, he may likely distrust you for a few weeks as it will be a tough memory for him to erase......Now imagine doing as I did this with a 16 hand muscular quarter horse that despised his ears being touched......

 

[LeahMurray]

Wow, thank you, folks, all kinds of good advice here.

I will do the slow and easy way that Reble has suggested, and will only use the harsher methods if emergency dictates in the meantime: Dancer has been getting sacked out for the last six months, and will let me kiss his face (comes up and ASKS for that now), hug him, walk alongside him with an arm over his neck, make humming or spluttering or blowing noises, etc., so I have some hope that he will get over the shots thing with some patience and proper handling.

He got chased by two big horses one day in the arena, and when I stepped in there with a lead shank and called him, he came right to me instantly, went behind me so I could fend off the two big guys with the loose end of the lead shank and get him out of there. So he does trust me more than he does anyone else right now, and I don't want to erode that if I can avoid it: we have already come some ways.

He does behave very well for the farrier now: we already did the slow and patient thing with an old rasp, so he is lots better with his feet, although he was impossible two years ago. And no one else can bathe him except me: he just won't let anyone else near him, hates the hose or shower thingie. He will stand for me doing those, but prefers me to use a bucket and sponge, which is what we usually do anyhow (had lots of water problems with the shower in the barn, so had to use buckets for a long time).

The idea of the goodies in the syringe will probably work if I take it slowly and gently one step further: that's pretty much how I got him to accept the dewormer, which he takes without any nonsense now, and I always give all of them a shot of applesauce with the syringe to wash down the ucky worming paste. As I said, he doesn't really fuss at me about being around with the syringe: just hates anyone trying to give him a needle in the butt. (Have given him needles in the neck before without anything more than a little stamping and nervous foot shifting.)

Anyhow, I have a couple of options now that I didn't have before, and Dancer will get better as we go on! Many thanks for all the help!!

 

[eagles ring farm]

i know this won't take care of the problem but we have a gelding who is just the biggest sissy when it comes to a shot aside from that i would not trade him for the world he is just fabulous.

But when the vet does his shots we put some feed in a bucket and he is so busy eating he barely moves a little for a shot without the grain we have had all out wars he rears and lunges forward.

like i said i don't think he is learning anything from it but it makes a very bad situation into not big deal at all for all of us.

lori

 

[MyBarakah]

Hi,

Well...... Years back I had a big horse that I had had since he was a weanling! But he was always well behaved "UNTIL"...... The vet showed up!

It wouldn't matter who the vet was......

It reminded me of your guy.....

I honestly think its the smell........ A vet has that smell of vaccines and of other animals....... It's a different smell...... And my horse, Danny, knew when he smelled that smell of the vet, something BAD was going to happen..... like getting shots........ or something and wanted NO part of it!

So I really think it has to do with the smell.....

Does he like treats???

You could possibly (this honestly DOES work!)....... but distract his mind and rewarding him (changing the situation into a positive one)..... with treats..... if he stands there, just for a miniute, knowing you have the treat in hand..... reward him!).......... He will soon be thinking of those treats......

I know in your mini's case..... it make take a few times..... but if he knows every time "you" will be rewarding him with treats when the vet comes........ he may change his behavior! Never hurts to try!

I've found this to be very good with minis that don't like to be trimmed and ones that HATE to have thier ears or things clipped!! Of course you can only ask for a "baby" step at a time........ So have PLEANTY of treats on hand for the first-3rd time...... til' they start doing what you've asked........

I know Trust and TREATS can go a LONG ways!!!! lol!

:

 

[LeahMurray]

Good point: Dancer has already "told" me quite clearly that the way to his heart is right through his tummy, so this might make life a little easier for the vet in the meantime! I will try it out next time we have to do this -- at the very least, he will get the idea that shots are occasions that aren't totally bad if he's being given some grain to munch!

Good thought -- I will add it to the mix and see what happens!

Leah M.

i know this won't take care of the problem but we have a gelding who is just the biggest sissy when it comes to a shot aside from that i would not trade him for the world he is just fabulous.

But when the vet does his shots we put some feed in a bucket and he is so busy eating he barely moves a little for a shot without the grain we have had all out wars he rears and lunges forward.

like i said i don't think he is learning anything from it but it makes a very bad situation into not big deal at all for all of us.

lori

Hmm, I'm not so sure it's the smell or the fact that it's the vet: he behaves just fine for the vet while getting his checkups and even when getting his neck clipped to have shots put in there -- and he will let the vet give him his vaccinations in the neck without more than shifting his feet around a bit on the ground. It's just when anyone tries to go near his butt with a needle that he gets all wonky.

I got him to start offering up his feet on command by treating him, although he still gets all wonky if I'm fussing around his left side hip too much: I think someone must have hurt him on that hip once. But he lets me groom him all over now, and lets me run the clippers all over him, including there, and lets me comb him out everywhere as well as sacking him out. He just isn't wild about anyone ELSE getting near that hip.

And he really needs to understand that rearing is not allowed: how do I get that across without being too harsh on him?

Leah M.

. . .I honestly think its the smell........ A vet has that smell of vaccines and of other animals....... It's a different smell...... And my horse, Danny, knew when he smelled that smell of the vet, something BAD was going to happen..... like getting shots........ or something and wanted NO part of it!

So I really think it has to do with the smell.....

Does he like treats??? You could possibly (this honestly DOES work!)....... but distract his mind and rewarding him (changing the situation into a positive one)..... with treats..... if he stands there, just for a miniute, knowing you have the treat in hand..... reward him!).......... He will soon be thinking of those treats...