Softening HELP!

[MajorClementine]

Clementine has become really hard on the bit. If she doesn't want to turn she'll bring her nose to her shoulder and still be walking in a straight line. What do I need to practice with her to get her soft and moving in the direction I ask. She has also always wanted to turn left so I always have to keep a little pressure on the right line. I think this hasn't helped with her stubborn mouth. Now that I have been driving Candace, Clementine's stubborn mouth is so much more noticeable to me. I'm sure it's something I've done but I need to fix it. She's so much more work to drive than Candace. She's a "get up and go" horse so she's really fun to drive but she's gotten really hard to steer. Help...

Do I go back to ground driving? Lunging? I'll gladly take any advice or tips.

 

[jeanniecogan]

ill throw in a noseband might help. also going back to ground driving might help changing the bit might help too. good luck.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I went through this with my last horse. He seemed to be driving all right and we were doing pretty well--and then all the sudden he turned into a dangerous flake. He could go straight with his nose on his shoulder too.

I went back to ground driving. I changed his bit. We worked on turns and transitions. He just kept getting worse and worse. I gave up on him because he was no fun and he was destroying my confidence. Hopefully your horse does not follow my scenario.

 

[Cayuse]

Have you checked her teeth? Cappy was (and still is a little) stiff and resistant turning to the right. He had a really sharp hook on a tooth on that side that when the bit came into play was pinching his cheek and when the vet fixed it, he slowly improved. It took awhile as he was used to carrying himself crookedly because of it.

I fell into the pressure on the opposite line to try and keep hi straight and it made him dull. A constant pressure gives them something to lean on and he loved to lean.

Ground driving might help, it did with Cappy. I would ask for a turn and if no response I would ask again using the whip lightly on the inside, right behind the girth on the side in the direction I was turing as an incentive to move his body foward and around. I wasn't too good at it, but it helped.

And I used a fence to help turn, walking or trotting to the fence (ground driving) and asking for a turn. They HAVE to turn that way and it was a good way for him to learn that this cue means "go left NOW!"

Jeannie had a good idea with the nose band!

Oh, and I learned this from riding my big pony years ago, don't forget to release the rein on the opposite side from the direction that you are turning (if turning left, release but support with the right rein) or you will be blocking the horses ability to turn. I got yelled at a lot for that during lessons, lol. I still do it, too but if I do it with Peanut, I hear about it . It is second nature for me to hold and not release.

Hope some of this helps a little. Does your dad's friend who is the sales agent train? Maybe he would have some better ideas, these are just things I cobbled together from Cappy and my lessons with him last year and also from my riding mare.

 

[MajorClementine]

Okay, help me understand on the "nose band". She has a noseband on her driving bridle but is there something else?

I think (hope) this is something we can work through. She can be good and soft but when she wants to be stubborn (and yesterday she was...but maybe due to not feeling well *see "Your Driving Day" post).

I'll go back to some ground driving and cone work. I don't use my whip often because my hands are bad (arthritis) but I need to. I think, with Clementine, it would help her know what I am asking for.

Yes to releasing the off rein pressure. I think sometimes it's possible that I'm trying to hold her back and don't release enough pressure on the opposite side.

Raymund does train and probably does have some ideas but he's in Iowa and the Amish aren't great at returning phone calls However, I think I will take your advice and leave a message on his work phone (he has an egg farm) and see if he'll get back to me. One of the Fjords had a hard mouth and he softened him up a lot.

Thanks guys! Any and all help is very much appreciated.

 

[Cayuse]

What does the noseband look like? Mine is a separate piece from the bridle itself and looks like an english bridle cavesson. It goes on first and then the bridle goes on. I don't use it too tight, just tight enough that if Cappy starts gumming and opening his mouth he feels it there. It helps him keep his mouth less busy.

The woman I took lessons from a years or so ago said that for training we could use a dropped noseband, but we never got around to that and I am not sure how to adjust those properly. I think Marsha has used one if I am remembering right. I think she posted a picture of it awhile back.

I bet Raymund will have a bunch of good ideas!

 

[MajorClementine]

Clementine's noseband is part of the bridle but is on it's own straps...if that makes sense. It does look like a cavesson. I don't have it so tight is clamps her mouth shut but she can't open her mouth wide to get out of the bit. I can take pictures tomorrow and you can help me understand if this is what you are talking about.

I think I'm going to put her harness on (minus breast collar) and do some ground driving in the arena around cones. I don't want to work her too hard after realizing we may have some discomfort along with other issues but I'd like to get her out again while I'm here. Just an easy 15-30 minute lesson for the two of us to work together.

 

[Minimor]

A dropped noseband really is the very best thing to use if a horse is gaping its mouth and evading the bit. An ordinary cavesson noseband is never to be used for this purpose. Never. I take my cavessons off except when showing-- if a blinker bridle takes then I use a noseband that runs through the cheekpieces or just a shoelace to hold the cheeks in place.

I do not have time just now to address the issue of vending the neck too far around/not turning--maybe later I can get back and and something.

 

[Cayuse]

Minimor, I am curious why it is not appropriate to use a regular cavesson? My instructor had me go to one first, and then she was going to move up to the dropped noseband if he was still having an issue. Was this wrong? I am just trying to learn something new, Thanks!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I think another name for the dropped noseband is a flashband. In catalogs, seems like most of the English bridles have them. My dressage dil showed me how to do one with a shoestring. I used it on two of the horses I failed with. Still failed. Both were serious evaders and had tongues as supple as eels. I have not seen a flashband on a miniature headstall, but I'd like to find one and have it in my tack.

I'm so sorry to hear about Clementine's troubles. Isn't it interesting that we all try our best to see that our horses are well cared for, and things still happen. (I wouldn't have believed that a hrose of mine could suffer a galloping case of pinworms and me not know about it.)

When my older gelding is snappy, I think it is due to his arthritis. Sounds like Clementine may be having some pain. Don't mares sometimes have ovarian cysts? Maybe she has something like that going on.

Your comment that you are sure it's something you've done is a red flag to me. Don't assume it's your fault; it could be that the two of you are not made for each other, or that she is not meant to be a driving horse.

Gosh, I sound like I know what I'm talking about and I'm a two time loser!

 

[MajorClementine]

The thing I can't understand is she loves driving. We've been driving for 4 years together. This behavior started about half way through the spring. So it was odd. No tack, feed, or location changes. I'm going to try her on a gut supplement and a mare supplement and see if that helps. We did an hour of ground driving and first thing when we stepped in the arena, nose in the air and spinning. By the end of the hour she was walking with her head down (finally quit tossing it) and was more responsive than she has been in a while. We'll keep doing the cones both ground driving and driving this winter and see what we've got.

But your right about it destroying your confidence... after that first spin today I was wondering if I could ever get her back to what she was before.

 

[Minimor]

A regular cavesson does not sit the right place to use it to keep the mouth shut. Adjust it tight enough to have any effect and it will be pressing the inner cheeks into the molars. Very painful. Plus--it is above the bit--making the bit pinch flesh between bit and cavesson when you use the reins and the bit rides up toward the molars --as snaffles do. The dropped npseband fits below the bit, in a place where the pressure won't make molars dig into flesh.

Flash nosebands do not work quite the same as a dropped noseband. There are also figure 8 nosebands which are different again. I prefer the figure 8 over a flash and would choose a dropped noseband over the figure 8

 

[Cayuse]

Thank you! That is good to know. I never thought about the molars and a regular cavesson. I never used the dropped one when I used to ride because I was afraid of too much pinching in the lip area. I have seen them cranked really tight sometimes and it looked uncomfortable so I just shied away from them. Luckily most of my riding horses had quiet mouths for the most part or if they didn't it was just a transient thing, usually cause by my tension (I lock my elbows and wrists).

 

[Marsha Cassada]

The thing I can't understand is she loves driving. We've been driving for 4 years together. This behavior started about half way through the spring. So it was odd. No tack, feed, or location changes. I'm going to try her on a gut supplement and a mare supplement and see if that helps. We did an hour of ground driving and first thing when we stepped in the arena, nose in the air and spinning. By the end of the hour she was walking with her head down (finally quit tossing it) and was more responsive than she has been in a while. We'll keep doing the cones both ground driving and driving this winter and see what we've got.

But your right about it destroying your confidence... after that first spin today I was wondering if I could ever get her back to what she was before.

I'm sorry I suggested giving up on her driving. I had forgotten that she had been working so well for you earlier. Hope you can figure out what's going on with her.

 

[MajorClementine]

I'm sorry I suggested giving up on her driving. I had forgotten that she had been working so well for you earlier. Hope you can figure out what's going on with her.

No need to be sorry. You were totally right about it demolishing my confidence. I don't know if she has grown to hate working or if there is something else she's not happy about. She's always been sassy but now she's a royal pain in the butt.

I do think that sometimes her personality and mine don't mesh well. The gal that trained her loved her sassy attitude moments, but she has been driving competitively for a long time. Her sassy attitude moments just tick me off... and then we're both a mess.

I value your opinion and insight Marsha. And frankly, yesterday I was ready to sell her to the glue factory!

I also think you were right on with her having some pain. I found out that when she nipped at my son he was pushing on her side and when she bit me I was brushing her belly. I think some stomach issues are happening. I ordered an ulcer/probiotic supplement, a mare supplement (calming and hormone regulating), and some flax for her flaky dry skin.

 

[jeanniecogan]

im more inclined to use the noseban last. if she is in pain somehow that should be dealt with first, then you get your horse back to normal without tricks. noseband is easy, but finding pain will really solve the problem

 

[MajorClementine]

im more inclined to use the noseban last. if she is in pain somehow that should be dealt with first, then you get your horse back to normal without tricks. noseband is easy, but finding pain will really solve the problem

I think that sounds like the right way to go. I'm going to give her the next 3 weeks off and her ulcer/probiotic supplement (along with others) will be here Wednesday. Plus she is being given about a much grass hay as she wants to bring her weight up. I'll see how she's feeling after that and continue with more cone work in the arena. Both driving and ground driving. I hope it is a pain or discomfort I can fix and not something I've totally screwed up with her training.

 

[Cayuse]

The only consistent thing about horses is how much they can frustrate us at times. You will get Clem sorted out. It may take a bit and you might have to go through a process of elimination, but you'll get there.

If it is her stomach, that can make them pretty cross.

I know this is out there but the thought came to me last night out of the blue so I thought I would mention it. Is there any chance at all she is in foal? I know Pistol was gelded but maybe he had one "last hurrah" left in his system? Just a thought! ? and worth a real !!!

 

[MajorClementine]

The only consistent thing about horses is how much they can frustrate us at times. You will get Clem sorted out. It may take a bit and you might have to go through a process of elimination, but you'll get there.

If it is her stomach, that can make them pretty cross.

I know this is out there but the thought came to me last night out of the blue so I thought I would mention it. Is there any chance at all she is in foal? I know Pistol was gelded but maybe he had one "last hurrah" left in his system? Just a thought! and worth a real !!!

And there's the reason I didn't want her in with him so soon. You see, the biggest down side to having my horses out of my care is just that. They are out of my care. She and Candace were to be put together after a MONTH of fence time. Well she got put in with Pistol after only a WEEK of fence time. I doubt (and seriously hope) that she is not in foal (cuz someone is gunna be in big trouble and it ain't Pistol) but it is a very good thing to keep in mind. Thank you for putting it out there for consideration. I will be keeping a close eye on her for any signs. Really glad you brought that up. Here's to hoping.... that's the last thing the mini world needs. Another unexpected addition.

 

[Northwolf]

Give her time I'm sure she will be back to normal soon. I think you're doing the right actions now. I cross my fingers that she's not in foal (and if she's in foal though, you will have a 4-in-hand ion a few years - always focus on the positive sides...

)

Relating to the "softening issue" of a horses mouth, I also did my experiences. Some of my horses where hard too. I have one (he's now 35 years old) who was almost "death in his mouth" due to being a riding school horse for many years. It's many years ago we took him to the cart, but I remember that we switched the bits until we found "the key". It was a double broken snaffle that worked great.

Teddy also had problems to follow the bit and struggled against, so I switched to a post curb bit without port and used in the first ring (means less leverage effect and not "sharp"). He was much more confident and smoother with that. The last few times I changed the bit back to normal snaffle and it was very improved now. But it's still a long way to get him really soft and accepting the bit completely.