Something I've wondered about for years

[StarRidgeAcres]

...with a method I choose?

I've never understood why it's perfectly acceptable/legal for me to administer tons of different shots/drugs to my horses but others I can't. Heck, even some vaccinations I can give my horse, but can't give my own dogs (example: rabies). Maybe I'm just not seeing the big picture, but if it's perfectly legal, as it is in my state, for me to take a gun and shoot my own horse in the head, why can't I euthanize them with a drug? I personally can't stomach the idea of shooting a horse in the head, but I for sure know when a horse needs to be put down and could very easily manage an injection, even an IV one, if I needed to.

So, I always ask every new vet I come across because this really gets me. The answer I always get is that the drug to euthanize is controlled. Last time I checked, so are guns.

I don't get it.

Again, maybe it's just me and my pea-sized brain.

Last year I had a lovely young gelding break his shoulder in a horrible way. I didn't need a vet to tell me what my options were. So I went through my drug selection and came on here in a panic asking if a certain drug could be used (in a high dose) to put a horse down. A really good forum friend asked her vet (friend) and PMed me that it wouldn't work. So I had to call the guy that buries my horses and ask him to also put the horse down and thankfully he was willing to do both. Why did that horse have to suffer the TWO HOURS before the guy could come out? Seems like I as the owner should have some other options available to me.

Am I the only one that thinks this way? If so, I'll go back in my hole and keep my ramblings to myself.

 

[Songcatcher]

...with a method I choose?

I've never understood why it's perfectly acceptable/legal for me to administer tons of different shots/drugs to my horses but others I can't. .

So, I always ask every new vet I come across because this really gets me. The answer I always get is that the drug to euthanize is controlled. Last time I checked, so are guns.

I don't get it.

.

Last year I had a lovely young gelding break his shoulder in a horrible way. ... I had to call the guy that buries my horses and ask him to also put the horse down and thankfully he was willing to do both. Why did that horse have to suffer the TWO HOURS before the guy could come out? Seems like I as the owner should have some other options available to me.

Am I the only one that thinks this way? If so, I'll go back in my hole and keep my ramblings to myself.

I'm NOT trying to belittle your questions, Parmela, just trying to answer them. I think the answer may lie in the fact that drugs are more widely abused than guns. Apparently you are authorized to use a gun, but not the drugs. Whether that makes sense or not, it is the law.

As to why your horse had to suffer for two hours before it could be put down, this is going to hurt. I know it sounds harsh, but I don't know any other way to put it. You chose to let the horse suffer the physical pain rather than you suffering the mental anguish over having to shoot it. Sorry you had to make that choice. I understand it is a very difficult decision to make.

Should you have other options available? In my opinion, yes. But that's not the way the law operates.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'm NOT trying to belittle your questions, Parmela, just trying to answer them. I think the answer may lie in the fact that drugs are more widely abused than guns. Apparently you are authorized to use a gun, but not the drugs. Whether that makes sense or not, it is the law.

As to why your horse had to suffer for two hours before it could be put down, this is going to hurt. I know it sounds harsh, but I don't know any other way to put it. You chose to let the horse suffer the physical pain rather than you suffering the mental anguish over having to shoot it. Sorry you had to make that choice. I understand it is a very difficult decision to make.

Should you have other options available? In my opinion, yes. But that's not the way the law operates.

Freeland,

Thank you for your response. No offense taken...at least by me.

I personally do not have a license to have a firearm, nor do I know how to use on or even own one. My ex-husband was responsible for that type of task when we were married. Maybe I had other options available to me, but I didn't realize it at the time or can think of one now. All I could do was give the horse, which I did, a huge OD of the one drug I have available which may not have actually stopped the pain he was in, but more likely just made him sedate enough that he stopped trying to struggle on 3 legs - which is what he was doing when I found him.

I am considering, and have been for several months now, getting some lessons and then purchasing a firearm mainly for the protection of my animals, but I know me and I don't imagine I'm going to be a very good shot. And then that makes me worry that I'll just end up making a bad situation worse.

But maybe you bring up a good point. Maybe I need to suck it up and learn how to shoot so that if something like this happens again, and with owning horses it probably will, I can take matters into my own hands so to speak. Maybe that's just part of animal ownership; doing the tough stuff. But I sure wish there was some way that I could legally keep a dose of something on hand that could be used in this type of situation.

Thanks for the response Freeland!

 

[cretahillsgal]

I know where you are coming from Parmela.

In my instance, I DO own guns. And I know how to use them well. I have hunted and taken down many animals. But my stomach rolls at the thought of having to look one of my "pets" in the eye and pull the trigger. If I had an animal in pain and suffering in an emergency situation like you described and I knew there was no hope, I would certainly do it. But if there is time and the animal is not in pain I will always call the vet to do the deed. For example, I had a 36 yr old gelding who was having trouble walking and eating this winter that I had put down.

Having watched how it was done, I don't think that I would be able to do it with the drugs. I am not knowledgeable enough with iv's and catheters to do it right. I would probably miss the vein. I know there are people here who could administer an IV, but I imagine most are like me and not know what they are doing.

To add, I DO adminsiter all my own vaccinations, antibiotics, and other injections. My vet pulls them up for me and sends them home. It is much cheaper than having her out to do all the horses herself.

 

[disneyhorse]

I am very fortunate to have many veterinarians close by on call should I need them.

Some drugs are abused by humans, and even though most well-intentioned people would only use them for their intended purpose, there are enough drug abusers out there that it could be tricky. Not everyone keeps their drugs and syringes under lock and key.

That said, I don't own a firearm nor would I ever use one to euthanize my animals. I just couldn't do it.

I would talk to your veterinarian about possible options, I think there are some drugs that you can have on hand, that can euthanize with a high enough dose?

Andrea

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

First of all understand that regulations are set up and ran by politicians/bureaucrats, they do not always make sense, but we are usually powerless to to change them.

It is legal for you to vaccinate your own dog for rabies. What you will not be able to get is a rabies certificate or a dog license based on the vaccine you gave. It is a regulatory issue because it is a human health concern.

As for why you can't have or use euthanasia solution yourself, its because euthanasia solution is a class 2 narcotic. There are other things in that category that we would all believe should not be in the hands of lay people. Date rape drugs are actually in a lower class of drug, so if you could get euthanasia solution then date rape drugs would be more available also. I doubt any one would condone that.

I sympathize with your frustration over a suffering animal and please know animal suffering is very important to me, but human health concerns are always primary.

Dr Taylor

 

[Bess Kelly]

I'm with Freeland in that most states will allow purchase & ownership of guns under certain conditions...drugs are more controlled and limited to those who can buy them, etc. This is all for good reason, we know.

It would be extremely hard to do but, if an animal was so obviously injured the kind thing would be to end the suffering, I would do so if I had the means to be certain it was fast. In fact, many of the larger, organized trail ride clubs usually have someone who knows how to handle it carry a hand gun -- in case an animal is injured to such an extreme, i.e compound leg fractures, etc.

I have read that another way to quickly and humanely end a horses life is by rectally cutting a main blood vessel/artery (?) which runs along the spinal area. Supposedly, done right, the bleedout is contained and the act is quick. Seems this used to be an older "can't wait longer" method at some race tracks, where often you hear of broken limbs.

We ALL prefer they be immortal. We all prefer humane euthanization but, in extreme cases other measures may be more humane than the suffering. Example: last yr some standardbreads got out of their field and into the road early evening. Hit by car & van, 8 of 11 were lost. Several had to be put down right there.

 

[Carolyn R]

I absolutely agree with Julie. I am a country girl born and raised, target practiced along side of my older brothers as a child. I don't hunt, my husband does.i see nothing wrong with it as long as the meat is used and it is legally tagged. I can not needlessly kill an animal, but if it were suffering and could not wait for a vet, yes, I would put it down. I will always opt to have a vet out whenever possible and have never needed to take these measures, but it is something I have thought long and hard about.

In PA one is permitted to put an animal down by shooting it, but one is not permitted to have that animal endure needless pain or cruelty in the process (Meaning a clean shot, but it is against the law to use it for target practice).

As Dr.taylor said, it is the case of the drugs being in the wrong hands, but I am sure it is equally as much of an argument of the drugs being improperly administered by an unskilled or uneducated person theus causing prolonged pain and suffering.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Dr. Taylor,

Is Potassium a controlled drug? Because an overdose of Potassium would just quietly stop the heart, I believe? I have never overdosed an animal with any type of drug, as growing up on the farm, we learned how to shoot, and so that is the option I used when faced with the problem in the past if the vet was not in attendance. Just a question.

No potassium is not a controlled drug and theoretically could be used, but it induces an ugly heart attack unless the patient is under anesthesia (which is what they do with prisoners).

My first lecture, my first class, my first day in Vet School...how to euthanize a horse. I have used every technique described in that lecture. I will not report those ways here as if they are done incorrectly then it is not humane.

If you can't/don't know how to euthanize with a gun, then wait for the Vet.

Dr Taylor

 

[Songcatcher]

Parmela, I am so glad you did not take offense, as I certainly meant none. Many times information is missing in an original question that would result in a different answer if it were included, as in your reply. Dr. Taylor certainly gave an excellent explanation.

Regarding shooting. I realize that not everyone can do it. You should know what you are doing and be sure to not botch the job. I grew up a farm boy and have used a gun since I was a child. Not everyone has had that experience. I am NOT saying everyone should use that method. Indeed, many should not.

I will relate this story only for reference, and not to obtain sympathy or condolences. Earlier this spring, I had an experienced mare attempt to foal. I will not go through all the details, but the end result was that I could not get a vet and could not get the foal out. The mare was in extreme pain and I had to make the decision to end her suffering. She was one of my favorite mares and my last words to her were, "I'm sorry little girl." I tried as long as there was hope. When there was no hope, I ended her suffering as quickly as possible.

EVERY situation is different. What is best in one situation, is not best in every situation.

 

[kaykay]

I have to say that the pony I had euthanized by a vet I adore, was the most horrific thing I have ever witnessed.

I have said since then that it will always be done now with a gun shot.

I wont go into graphic details but lets just say it took several injections and one hit artery and is something I will never have done that way again.

Kay

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thank you all for the replies. I sure wish I had more options available to me. I've heard of folks, even ones on this board, talk about euthanizing horses themselves using a common sedative. I asked one of my vets about it and he said it might work for that, but it's not a guarantee and there's a chance that the people are burying horses they think are dead, when in fact they are just in a very, very deep sedated state. Obviosly, one should always have a stethoscope (sp?) to listen for a heartbeat even if they used a gun and think they were successful. And maybe he was just trying to scare me away from trying that solution myself should I find myself if the situation again.

It will continue to bother me. I understand the reasons why drugs are controlled, but just like buying cold medicine or getting a script for vicodin or something "worse" there are ways to keep records. If I buy a gun and then someone I know ends up with a bullet hole, I would become a suspect. Same if I bought a drug and someone I know was killed with that drug. Seems to me (if I ruled the world

) there should be a way for animal owners to have more options at their disposal. When a horse is getting old and you know it's coming, it can be planned for. But when an accident happens and you live in a rural area like I do it would be nice to not have to wait for someone to do something I can do. If a horse is thrasing about so much that I can't find a vein, then it's going to be thrashing about too much for me to get a clean shot just where I need to. One of my vets was very helpful in showing my ex-husband exactly where to shoot a horse to ensure the cleanest (successful) shot and I was there for the demonstration, but it would be very different for me as my ex was an experienced gun handler. I've never even picked one up!

Maybe I need to put on my big girl pants and learn like I said earlier.

It is legal for you to vaccinate your own dog for rabies. What you will not be able to get is a rabies certificate or a dog license based on the vaccine you gave. It is a regulatory issue because it is a human health concern.

True. I can give the shot all day long, but I won't get a tag unless I can show proof a vet gave it. I guess I could give the vaccine then get a titer test, but that defeats the purpose for me as I do it myself because with as many animals as I had at one time, it wasn't financially feasible for me to have a vet vaccinate 30 horses, 11 barn cats and 8 dogs. I needed to use my "vet money" for IgG tests, ultrasounds, sicknesses, injuries, etc.

 

[Minimor]

Kay, I've heard of euthanasia going horribly wrong but haven't experienced it with a horse--once with a dog it didn't go so well. I once had a vet that would give a cocktail of drugs--barbituates combined with a paralytic drug, so the horse pretty much drops dead right where he stands. That vet assured me that the horse was dead before he hit the ground--I have no way of knowing if that were exactly true, but I hope it was. Previous to that we'd only ever had horses shot when they needed to be put down--and shooting was my preferred method, provided the shooter knew where to place the bullet.

Now the vet we use gives the horse a shot of rompun, followed by ketamine--exactly the same procedure/drugs used to put a horse down & out for a routine gelding procedure--then once the horse is "out" the vet gives the lethal dose of barbituate. I am quite confident of this method--I know the horse is out and not aware of whatever the barbituate does to him as he dies. The death is quiet and peaceful.

I know that if I had to, I could administer the euthanasia drugs in the above manner --but I do also know that the vets are not allowed to give out the drugs to animal owners to have 'just in case', and I can see why that is the case. I just hope that if ever I have an animal in severe pain that I can get a vet here within 20-30 minutes, and not have to wait hours.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Potassium is EXTREMELY painful to inject in large quantities. Euthasol is a mixture of sedatives including pentabarbatol (or phynlbarbitol) both of which are controlled substances, which are classified as such by the FDA because of their potential for abuse (additive, recreational, etc). In order to purchase or possess those drugs, you have to have an FDA number, meaning you need to be a researcher with FDA privileges, a doctor, or a veterinarian.

Having euthanized a lot of animals, equine and other, I have to say that for my horses I honestly don't know if Euthasol is my first choice. Gunshot sure is faster and less painful/disorienting.

 

[minie812]

I have always worried about this happening here as we are aways out and sometimes unable to get a vet out here. I have used firearms since I was seven and hunting with my Dad and really if it came down to it if one of them was suffering horribly I would end it for the animals sake. The thought of the horse suffering for any length of time is horrible. Edited to add I just glanced at my avatar...mmmm

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

When my Arab colicked and there was no hope we had him euthanized. It was actually quite peaceful. He was given the sedative and just folded up, then we laid him flat and let him go all the way. No struggles, no fighting. I do believe he was already on his way out and this just helped him over.

That said, we've also euthed llamas by drugs and gunshot. Shooting, IMHO was kinder and faster. They were dead before their head hit the ground. The drugged ones seemed to hang on longer and fought. Plus llama veins are far harder to find than a horse's vein.

But honestly, I don't know if *I* could do it.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

No offense taken. Many ways to do a safe, humane job.

Skip listening for a heart beat. Look for fixed dilated pupils and no corneal reflex.

Dr Taylor

 

[cretahillsgal]

I am just curious. Can one of you tell me where you place the muzzle of the gun when you euthanize by gunshot? So far, I have not had to do it. And this thread got me thinking about it and I really wouldnt know what would be the quickest shot.

 

[kaykay]

This is one of the best articles I have ever found as I researched a lot after our horrific experience

UC Davis how to euthanize a horse

 

[chandab]

I once had a vet that would give a cocktail of drugs--barbituates combined with a paralytic drug, so the horse pretty much drops dead right where he stands. That vet assured me that the horse was dead before he hit the ground--I have no way of knowing if that were exactly true, but I hope it was.

I worked at a government run sheep experiment station during summer break after college, we had to euthanize sick sheep, I honestly don't know what the drug was, but before the needle was out they were down and about gone (on-site vet did the deed). If only all euthanasia for animals was that quick.