Stallion

[minister man]

There are no studs to breed with around locally, and there are several ads on line where people are looking to breed to one.

There is a 3 year old stallion for sale about 3 hours from here, and I am thinking of buying him........ I have worked with Draft horses, Ponies, saddle horses, and miniatures, but I have never handled a stallion. I have the video's from the owner of them walking him on a loose shank, catching him in the field and handling him. He seems quite enough......... I do have a friend that has clyde stallions and he said he could be a sounding board if I needed help.....

Here are my questions:

How large a turn out area does one need for a stallion? I am thinking that the fence would need to be at least 5 feet high?

He would not be living in isolation here, once the mare is in foal he can run with the gelding and mare for company.... If the mare has a young foal, he can still hang our with the gelding. I would hope to train him to drive in the team with the gelding.

I will probably have more questions after we get this discussion started.

 

[minister man]

Sooooooooooo............ no one has stallions? if I am asking the wrong questions what are the right questions?

Can the three horses all be turned out together? and pasture breed the mare?? What size stall does a stallion need??

 

[paintponylvr]

Sorry, I read your post last nite, but had another 1 or 2 I responded to first and then was just too tired...

We currently have 3 stallions (1 to be gelded in Sept) and 1 Jr stud colt (will be gelded in Sept). Our pasture arrangements keep changing as we've had some fencing challenges - we need to get some paddock fences hot to keep the boys where they are supposed to be. BUT - we've maintained stallions in pens built from stock or cattle panels. They are pre-made, welded steel panels - 50" tall by 16' long. Since moving to NC, we've always purchased them from TSC and they are currently $19.99/panel. When I was growing up in CO 40 yrs ago & in MT before NC - I have no idea where we used to get them from.

Our two stallion pens right now are one 16' panel wide with a 4' gate added and 3 panels long (48') long. These 2 pens are set inside our "boys pasture". I don't think I've officially measured our boys pasture - I will have to see & let you know how large it is. Our cattle panels are tied up with a combination of haystring (strongest), wire (too light/breaks!! - wrong kind? but I can't wrap the heavier stuff around the posts tight enough to hold well) and zip ties (also break easily when they fight over the fencing or run into it full tilt or even when they scratch their itchy butts).

Our boys have all been raised together over the years - so YES, we have/do keep not one but 2 stallions out with the boys (geldings). I don't have "true" minis as ours are all Shetlands, but some are small(er). We do have issues - and there have been injuries. I have owned stallions (purchased as mature ponies) that would kill both geldings and other stallions - the fighting is ugly and horrific and no different then with big horses. I can then separate the boys as needed with our two pens. Right now I have a 3 yr old gelding in 1 pen with a young stallion that will be gelded in September. I weaned him late - wanted him where the other geldings could see/smell/get to know him before I turned him out with them. He is from some larger breeding and he is now larger than the gelding he is in - even though he is only 10 months old now. Going to start turning him out with the boys this weekend - they've been in the pen for 2 or 3 weeks now.

Some pics of our boys running and playing together -

You can see the panel fence behind them. The bigger pony is 1/2 Arab gelding - now 8 yrs old. The black & white colt is still a stallion and was raised since weaning with these boys. He is a 2013 model. The bay tobiano shetland at the rear (closest to us in pic) with the white tail, is a 2011 stallion and has been out with these boys off and on since 2013 when he came home from the show trail.

I crop our photos, so I don't have a good shot of just the boys paddocks/pens. I'm looking. Here's the front of the pasture w/ Rio(2013 gelding) getting his hooves trimmed. Right in front of him (to the left of the photo is another 4 ft blue gate panel into the 2nd stud pen & beside him to the right is the 3rd blue gate to the 2nd pen. The one where he is tied goes into an open area between the two stud pens that I can close off if necessary but that I usually leave open.

Here is the only "decent" shot of the intro between a 2 yr old Shetland stallion (Oly) and the boys - after this stallion returned home from the show trail. Trust me, you'd never have known that at one time he tried to nurse the big gelding (1/2 Arab - Sami) who he is striking at. It turned quite ugly after this and I had to put the stallion (Oly) back into a pen. It took quite a while to re-integrate him into the group as a stallion. This is at our previous property in August 2013. I did sell him to a friend as a stallion and now he is a happy, well integrated gelding - after siring 1 colt for her.

 

[paintponylvr]

So our situation set up is this - we have 21 acres total. When we moved in, there was one pasture fenced in short (too short but we will address that later) field fence. It's around approximately 7 acres (I think? - may be smaller). We built the pony paddocks, another pen behind the "barn" that was here, and the 60' round pen w/i that pasture. The paddocks are 30' off of the perimeter fence and the corners are angled so that large equipment can go around if needed/necessary. It also works as a "paddock paradise" track & driving/riding areas. AS of now, we don't have them all up yet - so I have a group of ponies running on the outside perimeter pasture. The boys paddock is along the side that is by the driveway & front gate. I have temporary feed sheds that will become permanent outside the boys pasture and one of the girls pastures. These sheds are built using 48" pallets for the sides and the cattle panels arched to form the roofs. The boy's feed shed is approx 8' x 10' and the girls' is currently 8' x 12' (getting ready to extend it to 12' x 16'). We have 1 arabian mare, 2 Xbred shetlands, & 29 purebred shetlands in this set up...

Well, this shot actually shows the mangled gate on the outside stud pen - closest to our driveway. Our Arab mare was being fed loose at the front of the pen. Larry, my hubby, rode his new bike (pedal, 10 speed type) along the drive way - outside the perimeter pasture - and she totally freaked out (guess we skipped that part of her training, oops). She ran backwards until she hit the end of the pen and then reared, flipping backwards over the panel (bending that section like a hammock). These are the ends that open in to the boy's pasture. The "feed shed" is outside the paddocks/pasture and is where I store feed, small # of hay bales and halters, leads, grooming equipment for the boys.

Another angle - I'm standing outside the boys pasture and have cropped this photo down. The front of the pens is to your right - also the front of the whole pasture. The bay/white in the "middle" of the shot is actually furthest away and is loose in his pen. The two silver pintos on either side of him are tied in the section that is between the two stud pens. The leaning gate hasn't been installed yet (cattle panel was shifted and doubled to install it for now). The larger bay pinto gelding is also tied in between the two stud pens - but is tied to the closer pen. There is a blue gate to the far left under that tree.

The section between the two stud pens. We can (& eventually will) make it into another pen. Right now, it's open and the boys come into it to be tied and fed at their buckets. There are 4 ponies in the pic below, the posts are set every 8'. You can see the gates at the ends of each paddock.

An angle showing the front of the pen closest to us above - with the feed shed outside the fence. The feed shed is approximately 10' wide? by 8' deep (2 48" pallets used for the sides, 1 pallet used for the back with an old door. I can put feed & hay out thru that open section. We have since put a different tarp on the roof and will soon be doing a different type roof (2 ltr plastic bottles over the two cattle panels).

The front of the boys pasture with the current geldings. They are standing about where there will be two gates installed. Right now the panels are angled to keep them up w/o posts and they are opened to allow my hay deliveries in 1x a month. The ponies are taken out via the smaller blue walk thru gates.



Our round pen is also built out of 16' panels and is currently housing the one stallion to keep him separate from the mares he was running with since the end of March. He will be gelded in September. The round pen is 60' diameter - the first time, ever, for us to have one this large. So far, it's only been used to house ponies, not as a working round pen, LOL...

We currently have the other two shetland stallions together in a large pen made from blue (economy) fence panels with a Shetland mare. This is not an arrangement I usually recommend, but for now, it is working for us. It probably wouldn't work at all if the 2013 colt hadn't been raised with the 2011 stallion since he was weaned. The older fellow is now chasing the younger fellow - but soon we will have the fencing finished (again) on the boys paddock and they will both go back out there - w/ more room to run/play/get away if necessary and no mare to fight over. The two boys are a bit thin here - had been running the other fence lines before brought into this pen. In the 3 weeks since, they've put their weight back on.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

OK, my #1 question is: is this stallion worthy of BEING a stallion? Please don't breed to him just because he's the only thing within three hours that has testicles.

We have five senior stallions and six junior stallions (some of which will become geldings in the future.) The seniors do not get turned out with each other or any other horse. They have their own barn and paddock, and get turned out in rotation every 12 hours. The junior colts all live together in a big field away from any mares. One junior is in the stallion barn, simply because he's a roan and we don't want bite marks to ruin his color. The stallion stalls are big 12 x 16' stalls. The paddock is about 60 x 100'. Woven wire with pipe on top. 4 1/2' high. A good, solid fence.

My feeling is that if you turn all three out together- stallion, mare and gelding- the stallion will hurt or possibly kill the gelding to keep him away from the mare. IMHO- not a good idea. We had a stallion that ran with a gelding for a while, they were fine all winter, until the mares began cycling. Then he brutally beat up the gelding. And the mares weren't even in the same field.

 

[Barefootin]

We currently have 1 stallion that is 16.2h and 6 mini stallions. The big guy is turned out by himself or with a bred mare. He may or may not stay where he is put on any given day. Our fences and gates where built with him in mind(almost 6' tall) BUT he can and does clear them on a fairly regular basis. He's smart, agile, and bored. He has been turned out with colts and geldings in the past. The problem comes when they play. Being a stallion the testosterone makes him stronger then the geldings. He hurts them even when he's not being aggressive. And another stallion, forget it, it turns into a death match in an instant.

The little guys are no less trouble. They just go under or through things. They are turned out in small paddocks made from round pen panels. All the pens are anchored to the ground as best we can because the boys still MOVE them. There are 3 pens. One has 2 stallions, one has 3 stallions, and the other has a single stallion. The single stallion can't be turned out with ANY body else, not a stallion, mare, or gelding. He never learned any real social skills and he is just plain rude if left on his own with another horse. The 2 stallions that are turned out together are equals that re-establish their status daily. They have been turned out with geldings and other stallions in larger paddocks but they hog the water, shade, hay, etc and keep harassing the others almost continually. The last 3 guys are all related(father, son, grandson). They can and often are turned out with a couple of geldings. These 3 are so mellow most people don't realize they are stallions. They do get more aggressive during breeding season but they still work well in their unit just not with any other horses.

I said all of that just so I can say.....there is NO way to tell if what you have planned will work or not. It may work at first and then fall apart. It may Not work at first and then one day it all falls into place. All I can really say is that after nearly 50 years of working with horses is that stallions and geldings Rarely mix well. I love our stallions. But it would be a whole lot cheaper and easier to find a breeding farm even 12 hours away to breed your mare rather than buy one and stand it yourself.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

My stud was completely content in a 30x36 dry lot. It had bother adjoining dry lot that was the same size, some sometimes he had a 60x36 dry lot. The fence was 36" tall. Wire mesh and board. Not once did we have an issue - with mares, other studs, etc on the other side of the fence. He had a shed and lived out there about full time in the spring summer and fall.

However - he is the opposite of a normal stud! He knows when it's one to work and is not obnoxious in any way when it's not time to think with his 'little head.'

Now he's boarded at a race stable with facilities for thoroughbred Studs. It's an overkill lol

 

[amysue]

If you do decide to get a stallion, it would be a very good idea to set up a seperate paddock with extremely well-build fence to keep him contained. The fence should be tall enough that he cannot jump over, solid enough that he cannot bend it over, break through it or climb it and it should be constructed so as if it were compromised, he wont hang himself up in it and get torn up. I use steel tube corral panels for stallions, simply because the rocky ground here does not allow easy installation of wooden or metal fence posts, welded wire breaks when climbed or rubbed on, they can run through electric, and I like the portability of moveable panels. As someone else suggested, anchoring them to the ground is absolutely necessary otherwise they move them. In my almost 30 years experience with horses. ..not often do breeding stallions mix well with a herd, especially other males. It is one of those situations thats fine until it isn't and the results are usually tragic. If left with his mare all of the time, he will probably get very posessive of her, aggressive toward you or other horses when seperated (this situation requires diligent training constantly to keep them in check). Plus, when keeping a mare with a stud you will keep getting her bred. Are you prepared for the time, work/effort, responsibility both financially and emotionally to always have foals on the ground? Do you plan on selling the foals? If not, do you have the space to keep all of these horses and the resources to properly care for them? I ask because all too often I see situations like this get out of hand fast. Stallions are a huge commitment, as is breeding. Are you prepared to lose your beloved mare due to the possibility of foaling complications? What will you do with the stallion after the mare foals? Keep breeding her or geld him? Are you prepared/willing to seperate the gelding when/if the stallion gets too aggressive with him? It is not so much a matter or how much space but rather how safe of a space you have when keeping a stallion. Some are absolute gentlemen and I know people who keep them in a herd like a pet even in temporary electric fence with no issues, but this is not the norm. I have 6 stallions, a jack and 2 bulls on the property and all have to be separated for safety. The stallions are contained in 60-80' round pens (not too long ago I rearranged the round pens into rectangular paddocks to gain a few panels and better utilize the space) but, now that the boys share fence lines, what were once quiet horses, have now began to get aggressive during breeding season, so we hung tarps over the shared walls to shield the boys from one another and this has worked well for us. It looks trashy, but everyone is safe and content, plus they provide shade. My suggestion is to look harder for a stud (some breeders don't advertise stud service but will offer if asked) or find a good reproductive vet who can AI your mare. I know it is tricky with small horses, but it can be done. If you are only looking to breed your mare once, it would certainly be more economical than keeping and feeding a stallion forever. Just my opinion.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Where are you located? Some members here may be able to help or guide you

 

[minister man]

This is a picture of the stud. He is arriving the first of the week. That gives me the weekend to at least have a stall ready....... I have been reading about handling stallions, and I have a friend that has draft stallions. I can get some advice from him as well, but his stallions are huge......... Is he worthy of being a stallion? He is quite, easy to catch, healthy, handles quite well...and I know that he is fertile....... I am going to try him on my mare.....

I held a mare for breeding once, but I have no other experience in handling them at breeding time. I am hoping to pasture breed with him.. I will not turn him out with the gelding, thanks for the warning. At his current house he is in a pasture with a saddle horse.

I am pretty excited, and scared at the same time. Thanks for all the help, I will read it several times this evening to be sure I understand it all.,

 

[minister man]

Now that I have read the posts all a few times, I have learned lots of things. I hadn't thought of using the same paddock on a rotational schedule, like a 12 hour cycle, that is a neat idea that might be helpful......

Amysue, you gave me lots of questions to think about. The original plan was to buy him use him and sell him. Then I was hoping that if I can handle him well, he might be the one horse that pays his keep by standing him at stud......... Now I am thinking about where to keep visiting mares, more paddocks, liability......... I am not saying I can work it out, but I am thinking through the issues, so everyone can be safe, and Oliver can be happy.

I appreciate the statement that is not about the size of the paddock as much as the strength of the fence.........I can do 4' high page wire, probably about 30-40 for just him, with the others in a paddock next to him....... possibly with a 10 foot space between paddock fences?

Someone on here had a little barn that was like two tie stalls with a dutch door on the outside of each stall. I can't find the picture, but will keep looking.......... I am thinking about temporary mare housing........ Thanks for all the suggestions and things to think about, after all failing to plan is planning to fail..

 

[minister man]

I found the picture I was talking about, but I don't know whos barn it is, but I saved the picture, because I like the idea.

 

[chandab]

The original plan was to buy him use him and sell him.

Could also buy him, use him for a foal or two, geld him and keep him. No stallion is too good to be gelded.

 

[amysue]

Those are mine, lol. My husband built them for me when I was keeping horses at my father's house when our barn was full. It is definitely safer to keep a space in between fence lines, otherwise horses can nip at eachother through the fence and are more tempted to climb the fence. The easiest way to keep them in, is to deter them from touching the fence in the first place by electrifying it. A hot wire at the top and one 1/2 way up from the bottom should deter him from going over or squeezibg under the fencing. Buying a horse is a long time commitment, your plan to resell him could fall through if he gets injured during breeding or if you sell him before the mare foals and she miscarries, you will have wasted your time. There is a possibility that he won't sell fast, and you will be stuck feeding him. As for breeding outside mares....it is a hassle, I only stand a few out of our herd and it rarely turns a profit. The liability insurance is a must, but it is costly, the responsibility of caring for another person's horse is a huge undertaking. It requires additional stalls, paddocks, sturdy fence and extra time for feeding, cleaning and care. Plus, rarely do I find mare owners to be 100% compliant with the contract rules ie. vet checks, pre breeding soundness exams, ultrasounds, blood tests, live foal guarantees etc. If a mare is not sound for breeding and cannot produce a foal, it can be detrimental to your pocket and reputation if the owner complains, even if it is their fault. Do you have a good reproductive vet? Some travel further outside their raidus for reproductive specialty services, you may get some good info from one if they are willing to help you.

 

[minister man]

I am so glad that I started asking questions here, and that you tell me the truth and not just what I want to hear. It is hard to learn the other way.

So the reselling of him was truthfully a "way out" in case I couldn't handle him......... But instead I see now that I need to set myself up to win, not have a back up plan in case I don't. Every horse I have ever owned but one, lived and died with me. I lost one to colic, after many vet bills, I lost one to an injury to the front leg, and the only foal I ever raised before was a welsh pony and he lived to a ripe age as was put down here.......

I will build him a paddock. I measured out a space that is about 40 x40, and that would fill that space. I will put up Page wire with 6" verticals, and I can definitely run a couple of stands of electric as well. If he can't come here and be a horse, I don't want him to be a stallion. It is important to me that he has exercise, fresh air, but he has to be safe, and so does everyone here.

I have a million dollars liability on the animals currently, in case something gets out and hurts someone, but it is important to me that doesn't happen.

If I were to build a building like the one I pictured above, on to his paddock he could go in for shade, and be closed in at night away from predators, Right?? it would really only need to be one stall wide, right?

All partions need to be a full 2" lumber? right?

I know that animals are easier to keep in if they have never learned to get out.

One question I have for you guys is, if stallions are so "in convienient" for lack of better word, why do some of you 3-6 of them??

Please keep the good advice coming.

I want to drive him in the team, would it be better to drive a stallion with a mare? or gelding?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Well, I'll be honest and say I've seen worse stallions- but I've seen many better ones, too.

Once you get him, how about some better pics for us?

Our boys aren't "inconvenient" simply for the fact we do have a specialized area for them. One barn and paddock fully dedicated for stallions and set up just for them. The reason we have so many is that the farm owner prefers to show stallions. (Personally- all my boys are geldings! I LOVES my geldings and really prefer them over mares and stallions) We don't breed a ton of mares, either. This year we had one foal. We've bred three mares for next year. (we have 12 mares) And at least three of our juniors will be gelded this fall, if not more. We do like to let them mature a bit and see how they look before gelding.

Build the biggest, strongest fence and shed you can afford. It's always better to go overboard than to keep replacing and rebuilding.

If you can afford to build a two-stall shed, do it. Extra space for storage is always nice, and down the road if you keep and geld him, he can have a buddy after all.

If you aren't an expert at driving, use a gelding as a partner. Things can go south in a hurry sometimes, you don't need the added hassle of a stallion and mare tangled up together.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Good luck with your adventure!

 

[minister man]

I would never claim to be an expert driver. I have a Standardbred that I drive on a wagon. I have worked with horses since I was little. I have horsehoed and cultivated with the team and single horse, for HOURS each summer as a tween and until young adulthood. I yarded logs in the woods with the single horse in the winter. I have mowed, and racked hay with the team.. I raised and trained a team of welsh ponies to work both single and double..... My daughter's saddle horse we bought at 6 months, raised him and trained him ourselves.

I do all the foot trimming myself, which is the way we did it on the farm. I had the farrier come in because I was afraid I might be doing them wrong or something, he looked at them and said " you don't need me".

I know nothing about a stallion.........but I do have a lot of horse experience in general so I am hoping that will make a good foundation to build on.

 

[minister man]

I woke up this morning thinking.................... I my I might be over my head.......... I have been reading the posts of stallion problems........... I guess it is better than entering into things unaware......

When He arrives, he will be stalled in one of the big horse stalls. I am expecting him to be pretty excited the first day or two? New mares around, he has never been trailered before, so that stall is 5 feet tall soild walls of full 2 inch planks.......... once he settles a bit, I can start teaching him to louge for exercise until the paddock is 100% complete.

I have been reading some natural horsemanship reponse to letting him know I am dominant, like pushing him back from the shoulder, raising your voice like the lead mare. I read the gelding kevin post, and can use the backing him up if he rears.......

The place where he lives, he was born, and his pasture is fenced with 2 stands of electric fence. The electric fence company suggests 5 strands, the bottom one 12" above the ground, and every 10 inches there after..........

I think I just need to take a deep breath and take it as it comes.

I have the book " the foal is the goal" , one called managing stallions, "miniature horses, their care breeding and colors". I have read them, but I find them to be vague.

But I learned. Don't let him breed in his paddock, use a differen't halter for covering than working, Keep him busy, a busy stud is less focused on his horniness. What other rules could you help me add to the list? it is easier to enforce good rules from day one than it is to later fix problems that my lack of rules created.

 

[minister man]

I spent some time with a friend that has clyde stallions today, and he helped me to see through some things. He suggested that in stead of building a paddock tomorrow that I put the existing minis out in the morning until supper time, and then bring the gelding in and put the stud out with the mare and try that.

He told me that isolating the stallion by himself in a paddock often causes him to pace the fence line and take up weaving. So if I am going to breed the mare then they should be paddocked together. If rotating gets too much the mini gelding can go out with the saddle horses, and the mare and stud can paddock together.

He talked me through some training and handling issues, so my mind is more at peace. He said the main thing is to stay calm and in charge, cause If I am anxious about it, then the stud will be anxious too. I have more peace about the whole thing now.

He said they sometimes take their studs to the mare farm for stud service rather than bring the mares into their farms, but he suggested that I work with the stud until spring before I consider breeding other mares so I am sure I can handle him and that he will mind me before I take him out.