stallions vs geldings

[shadowsmystictopaz]

I recently got a orion grnadaughter and a orion grandsome and i am kinda upset that my parents are thinking of gelding him.

I know that bllodline and conformation is everything in the show world and to me he has it. it upsets me that they want to do this to a grandson of the legendary orion because he is eerything I wanted in having a real breeding farm. he has the nice conformation and nice bloodline. He is only a baby and hasnt even gotten a chance to prve himslf a worthy stallion. to me every horse that is biorn a stallion should have a chance at proving themselves before gelded. I dont mean to be mean but even if you geld a stallion they can still bite and be studish so you lose some of the good babies they might have produced.

why would you geld a stallion with a good conformation and bloodline who could make you millions of dollars out of a few batches of babies?? who might have been champions or national winners?

I want to knw because i am curius to find out

 

[JWC sr.]

I understand your desire to see what he would produce, but geldings are so much more easy to handle than most stallions that you really may want to agree with your parents. It takes a really good gelding to be sucessful in the show ring now days and geldings are nothing to be ashamed of. Of the 18 stud colts we produced this last year all have been gelded prior to a year of age with the exception of 4 which we are waiting to see how they mature. The best stud colt we produced this year was a Glenns General Patton Grandson out of our stud "WF Patton's See Me Shine" and a Rio De Oro Daughter, we are gelding him for one of our grandsons to show next year instead of the mare he showed this year.

In our opinion most stud colts should be gelded as versus having a bunch of young studs on our farm. They are not needed in the genetic gene pool and will make great pets and/or show horses as geldings for someone.

Good Luck with your new hirse whichever way you and you parents decide to go.

John Cherry

Cherryville Farms :saludando:

Home Of:

Cheryville's Rio De Oro

Wf Patton's See Me Shine

Whistling Pine's Apache Prince aka Whistle Britches

La Vista Farms Roses First

Silver Plates Baccara's Luxor

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I try to geld every colt I breed that I cannot keep.

Occasionally there will be something just too good to geld right then, but only very occasionally.

99% of colts born will make very good geldings and very ordinary stallions.

If one slips through the net- if, for example Orion had been gelded as a foal, who would know, or even care??

Someone would have had a very pretty gelding, that is all.

Orion, to me knowledge was never shown, so none would ever have been the wiser.

Also of course, the grandchildren of a good horse are not themselves automatically any good at all.

To be perfectly blunt your parents are on the right track, and I commend them.

Far, far too many mediocre horses are stallions already, why maker a poor horse wait until it is four or five years old and has become used to being a stallion, and then alter it's whole way of life, when you have a choice.??

If I had my way I would geld at least 80% of the stallions around, including some that are in the show ring and have done some serious winning!!!

I speak as a breeder, of course, so my horses very best interests come first.

There is little room in my programme for sentimentality.

Love, yes, and plenty of it, but not rose tinted glasses and sentimentality.

And before you start with the "He is a perfect colt" business, what had he won, how do you know, what top breeders and show-ers have told you this??

 

[Jill]

In 2005, I gelded what had been two successful show stallions. Each of them had halter and performance championships and were very nice IMO. I don't regret gelding them at all and still own one (one of my favorite horses).

Additionally, this past spring, I gelded a gorgeous, golden palomino SON of BTU / Ima Boones Buckeroo Too. Don't regret that either.

The only thing a gelding cannot do that a stallion can is sire foals. I already have two successful show stallions who are well bred and sometimes, it's just really wonderful to have a nice, consistent, and beautiful horse to go out and enjoy at home or in the show ring or both!

If a horse isn't truly exceptional in the flesh, and can hold his own on a high level of showing, to my way of thinking there's no call to keep him a stallion when there are SO many other fabulous stallions out there that you can breed to if you choose.

Additionally, gelding a stallion usually lets him have a happier life. He is less frustrated and can live a much more socialized life.

 

[Minimor]

why would you geld a stallion with a good conformation and bloodline who could make you millions of dollars out of a few batches of babies?? who might have been champions or national winners?

I'll point out something no one else has mentioned yet--in today's market it would be a very rare stallion that would make you, or anyone, millions of dollars out of a few batches of babies! If you want to have a stallion to make money off of, either in stud fees or foal sales, please don't count on that. Most in the horse breeding business don't make huge amounts of money on their horses,

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I missed that line too!!

There is NO way you will make any money out of standing a stallion at stud or out of selling his babies.

A very, very few people do.

You are not known.

Your horse is not known.

Your "farm" is not known.

If I had a dollar for everyone who had come on here saying exactly what you have said I would be rich.

As it is I have been breeding top class show horses, from known bloodlines, that win regularly in the ring to top level, and I just about break even.!!

So, please, although I know all this is hard- if you know something that I do not about selling and producing horses that will make me millions of dollars, PLEASE tell me, I am always ready to learn!!

:

We are not being hard or mean, we are being realistic.

If I had a really, really top class colt foal, one I thought was easily as good as his illustrious Grandsire, I would KEEP him!!

If I did sell him I would

a) ask TOP dollar.

b) tell his new owners exactly how good he was and how he should be shown to top level and bred onto a number of top quality mares.

I would not, putting it quite quite bluntly, sell him to a first time buyer that I knew was quite likely to geld him.

And you are speaking, remember to someone who really does not believe any horse is too good to geld

:

 

[Pandora]

I have a 4 month old colt right now that will mature 30" and as far as I can tell will be almost perfect conformation wise. I'm gelding him. I will use him as a halter/obstacle/jumper. Have to wait to see how he matures if I can drive him or not.

In the big horse world, there is nothing wrong with a gelding. Geldings are easier to handle than mares, at least in my experience for the biggies.

For minis, My mom is getting into the promoting of geldings. We actually are going to show a now 2 year old gelding she has in obstacle, jumping and she'll show him in roadster next year. And we have another gelding being shown in halter. I'm looking at other young geldings she has to see what they would best show at to get them out of the pasture as their legs are not the straightest and wouldn't do good in halter.

Geldings do lead a better life overall than stallions and you don't have to worry about studdy tantrums. I do agree with your parents on this. There is enough unwanted babies out there, yes even with good bloodlines. Have your boy gelded and enjoy him

:

 

[Littleum]

why would you geld a stallion with a good conformation and bloodline who could make you millions of dollars out of a few batches of babies?? who might have been champions or national winners?

The sad truth about the horse industry is that VERY few people make any money... most of us are lucky to just break even year to year.

Most Miniature foals sell from $1,000 - $15,000 apiece. $15,000 will buy you a very, very, VERY beautiful baby. Let's say your farm has 5 foals a year and they're all very nice, and on average, you sell them for $10,000 each. It will take 100 foals for $1MM in sales, which is 20 years

It may be that your parents already have had a few professional trainers evaulate your colt as a future show/breeding prospect, and now have decided to geld him. It may be your parents don't want to deal with all the hassles and aggravations of owning a stallion. It may be your parents have seen all the sad stories about mares and babies dying during birth, and they don't want to risk that. It may be your parents have seen all the sad stories about people selling foals only to find out they're in a bad situation and need to be rescued, and they don't want to risk that.

I own an Orion descendant too, and he is very well bred. He's a gelding! :lol: It's really not the end of the world to decide a colt isn't stallion material- most colts just arn't.

Geldings are fabulous and you won't regret it.

 

[Ashley]

I to am one that is geld happy. In fact I have a few gelding prospects sitting around here at the momment.

I have a appy stud colt, that I more then likely will geld. I am still weighing my options, but right now, it defently leans more to gelding then to keeping a stud.

I personally think there are way to many studs out there already. And a nice looking baby may or may not look so nice when he is mature.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Millions of dollars is wishful thinking

If you really think about it, even if you are standing this stallion and not breeding your own mares, you are only looking at a few hundred dollars profit per mare. Plan on maybe 5-10 mares a year, AFTER you spend hundreds of dollars on advertising and thousands on showing. The people you see with money either: a) started with more than they have now or b) provide SERVICES, not animals, to the people who pay them.

And they do say that a good stallion makes a great gelding.

My point of view is if the horse's bahavior deserves them, let him keep them. Their his, not ours to take off just because. I won't geld a horse, even if he'll never be bred, unless its in HIS best interest, not mine.

 

[Kendra]

This is the three year old stallion I showed this year. He did well, winning a grand and a reserve. Since I've decided to keep him as my show horse, he's going to be gelded this afternoon.

We don't plan to use him for breeding as his sire and dam are both still a part of our breeding program, and though he's (now) a very easy to get along with and well adjusted stallion, there's no reason to leave him a stallion.

Generally, all the colts born here will be gelded by the time they are three years old.

As far as your stallion goes, unless he truly is spectacular and you are planning to spend a lot of money showing at the top levels (and winning) and promoting him, you're never going to make money standing him at stud.

Don't feel bad about gelding him. He'll be happy and you can have just as much enjoyment showing him.

My great grandfather always said that it takes a helluva good stallion to make a half decent gelding.

 

[kaykay]

for sure i am a gelding lover. been breeding 4.5 years and have never sold an intact stallion of my own breeding. Here is our newest gelding Jet purchased from Getitia. He would make a great stallion but hes going to be an AWESOME gelding. He won National Champion Foundation stallion at congress as a stallion foal and champion mare and foal

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We just gelded the best horse ever foaled on my farm. He is SPECTACULAR! And will make a spectacular gelding! And he'll be shown!

Bloodlines are nothing unless the horse, himself, is awesome. Unless you SHOW SHOW SHOW this horse and WIN WIN WIN, you aren't doing him good keeping him as a stallion.

Please post some pix....

Lucy

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

My point of view is if the horse's bahavior deserves them, let him keep them. Their his, not ours to take off just because. I won't geld a horse, even if he'll never be bred, unless its in HIS best interest, not mine.

HHM that is an interesting statement one I of course whole heartedly DISAGREE with but that is ok

I am just curious do you feel the same about nutering dogs and cats?

 

[Frankie]

QUOTE(Nathan Luszcz @ Aug 24 2006, 09:06 AM)

My point of view is if the horse's bahavior deserves them, let him keep them. Their his, not ours to take off just because. I won't geld a horse, even if he'll never be bred, unless its in HIS best interest, not mine.

Sorry, I do not agree with this statement in any way shape or form.

But my biggest concern with this statement, is if you share that statement with others, or actually encourage them to do the same. As in, not geld.

I do understand, that does not mean you will breed them, just won't geld, but what about the guy you sell to, or the guy he sells to, or the friend who agrees and then breeds?

I don't think we need any more miniatures out there that are not better the breed. Not that we can stop it, but we don't need to help it along.

And just in my opinion,

HIS best interest is to geld, in most cases.

:

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I feel its up to the owner to learn responsible management techniques to allow the animal to live a happy life. Dogs have their own health reasons for castration, including a high risk of testicular cancer. I'm not a fan of dogs or cats, so I really don't have an opinion of them. I personally feel that an animal is an animal, and if you can't deal and manage his or her urges than you shouldn't own them. I've castrated enough stallions for other people, including one of my own who's best interest in keeping him alive in the long run was being snipped. (I won't go into details, but if he had remained a stallion he might have been put down, for no other reason than he couldn't have been provided for financially, and he would have made a GREAT stallion. His dad and grand dad's stud fee is over $10,000, and his could have been too, as is, with no further training, showing, etc).

I have the training and experience to own a stallion as an every day horse, but many people do not. So I, personally, will not buy a horse that can't happily remain intact if I have that option. So my personal horses will live happily with each other and live a social life and be all that much better off because of that. But I know that this is not how the world opperates generally, and I recignize that for a horse to be intact in many situations will result in a seriously unhappy animal, a potentially dangerous one, and potentially an inadvertantly abused one as well. Also, if I dont' own the horse I have no say if its to be castrated or not. My personal views don't matter much if a client asks us to snip one, and its not my place to say anything contrary to them. But in my back yard, I get to choose how they are managed and cared for.

In a post with people asking for advice, I will offer a balanced view. Its rediculous to assume that stallion = profitable income, especially millions (remember that stallion I had gelded that could have commanded a stud fee that is half what my truck cost new). Its also well known that as far as behavior, a good stallion = a great gelding. So in most cases I'm pro castration, for most people. But my personal views are as I mentioned in the above posts.

 

[shadowsmystictopaz]

I have always wanted a silver dapple horse and i finaly got one it took alot of time for me to find the mare and the colt. If iI did geld him id probley sell him. I know that conformation and bloodline is important as it will make people want to have babies by the stallion. to me my colt would make wonderful babies when he is older. i think that it takes time for one to prove themselves and i care alot about what happends to my colt. I wanted to start my own bloodline and he is the one to start it if we keep him a stallion. i think that cats and dogs are diffrent sometimes its more imporant to make them not make babies but i did have a cat have a batch of her own babies before we got her spayed. my coly would win and then you guys would see why i dont want to geld him to me alot of my life has been about waiting and i think that animals have feelings and even tho they cant voicce them i think we as ownsers should know that they might want a few children or grandchildren. just think of them as humans and you will see that its better to give them a chance. please think about tis as something that is important to me as we own them and love them and yes i do want whats best bu what about what they want?? dont you think they want to express something to us=s but yet they cant?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

.... and i think that animals have feelings and even tho they cant voicce them i think we as ownsers should know that they might want a few children or grandchildren. just think of them as humans and you will see that its better to give them a chance. please think about tis as something that is important to me as we own them and love them and yes i do want whats best bu what about what they want?? dont you think they want to express something to us=s but yet they cant?

But they AREN'T humans. They have NO IDEA about mating= babies. They are ANIMALS.

Please, post a pic of your guy. SHOW us why you want to keep him as a stallion.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I'm willing to bet that animals do have feelings. They may be fond of their owners, some rare ones might actually love their owners. But they do not love their mares. Lust, sure, but love? Not unless it was some long time companion, and not in the sexual context. I think you are far too sure of this colt. It will win and show everyone that he's the best? Founding a breeding program isn't that simple. Even if you horse is the best, will people want to breed to him? And remember since you are talking minis you are severely limited by distance, since the vast majority of mini breeding is live cover. If your colt bred a small handful of mares a year you would be thrilled. But it takes a LOT of work, time, and money to become that well known and good, and unless its with your own herd, "founding" a bloodline is dang hard to do. I may be all for keeping horses intact, but doing so with the intention of breeding "just because" is fundimentally flawed, and very dangerous. They don't care if they have grandfoals. In fact, many people get in trouble when daddy breeds his filly and starts a new bloodline of inbreeding. They breed for the sake of the physical act of breeding, not because they have the urge to raise a family.