Stud chains in mouths

[Psultan]

I'm still trying to recover from "three gays a week" (I consider that a trifle excessive but hey, whatever floats your boat

)

I do not think there is any need for the amount of defensiveness, nor the apparent aggression being bandied about on this thread, the OP queried the use of stud chains in the mouth, I am not even sure if that would be legal here, but there you go, it most certainly would not be considered acceptable.

I have only ever experienced a truly "black hearted" horse once in my life, I am very glad to say, but I can tell you, Psultan, it is terrifying.

I can assure you that, when faced with 16.2hh of very aggressive Irish Draught mare, the first thing that you ask is not "Oh, what made her that way?" the first thing you ask is "How the HECK do I get out of here alive????"

Nor did we stop to consider why she was doing it, nor did we try a stud chain on her top lip. We had her shot.

A bit extreme? Possibly but we did not wish to hear, at some later date, that whoever had bought her form us, thinking, no doubt, that they would be bound to succeed where these two soft and tiny women had failed, was found dead with their heads kicked in. We did what we considered to be the responsible thing, the only responsible thing, to do.

I am afraid this tends to be my approach to most real aggression in a horse. If it is a stallion, first line of defence is to geld. If this does not clear it up and the horse is not responding to firm but consistent training then I do think it should be put down.

The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

Both of which can easily happen to the animal that you find you cannot, in fact, handle, and so pass on to someone else.

WOW I AM SURE GLAD YOU SHARED THIS WITH US. That shows me REAL HORSEMANSHIP and I HOPE you do NOT have any Children that may disapoint you as they grow up.

And this statement I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND from anyone. I am sorry for you as a person. Your Statement here in BLUE.

The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

That is all I can say about this post as I may get in BIG BIG trouble here.

 

[midnight star stables]

Without reading many other posts, I would personally never put a stud chain in a miniature or shetland ponies mouth. I think the mouth and head is a very sensitive area.

I don't think that I would ever use one on a large horse either, however I do not work with many bull headed horses, so I can not speak for other peoples actions. I believe in discipline, but also respect.

In some cases, strong tools, such as the stud chain in the mouth may be necessary, but IMO it should not be the normal. I limit the times when I even use a stud chain over/under the nose.

But that's just me.

I would speak up if I seen something that I felt was abuse.

 

[tagalong]

Rabbit - it was actually SIX gays a week. I pondered about that as well.

And this statement I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND from anyone. I am sorry for you as a person. Your Statement here in BLUE.The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

Psultan - the part I bolded was uncalled for - and reminiscent of PMs I received in the past about twitches.

It is a sad reality that not all horses can be reformed - and in some very extreme cases euthanasia may indeed be the kindest thing you can do for the truly troubled and disturbed. I have never had to do that and I hope to never have to - but I was not in rabbit's shoes and did not know the extreme behaviour of the mare involved... so I cannot condemn her decision. One that was likely very hard to make.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Hmm. well. Psultan, we can all get personal and make mean remarks, except that it does nothing for your credibility as an adult.

You are, I am guessing not an adult?

Whatever, it is not really all that relevant, as we have a number of really sensible young people on this forum who are, actually, very capable of an adult conversation.

*stands back with fingers in ears waiting for the next rant*

The fact is that putting a dangerous animal down is just one of those things that, regretfully, you have to do every now and again, and bears absolutely NO relationship to anything you would consider doing to a human being, perhaps when you are older you will be able to understand this.

Putting the mare down was the responsible thing to do.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Wow, this has gone ALL over the place.

Personally, I've learned never to say things like "I would NEVER do..." or "Never will a horse of MINE..." because you only end up looking like a fool and feeling heartbroken when you actually find yourself in one of those situations you said you would "never." If a horse, I don't care what breed or for what reason, is dangerous enough to seriously harm someone, you'd best do something about it because, in Rabbit's case, what if that horse killed a child down the road, or was sold to someone who was "sure" their techniques could change that horse. Well, what if that's not the case? I don't know Rabbit personally but I've been around this forum long enough to know she's knows horseflesh and horse minds. If she says the horse was going to kill someone, then I believe it would have and I support her putting it down. Why in the heck is that cruel??? It's painless, and takes less than a split second. How is that worse than that jacked up horse living in constant anxiety and ready to hurt someone?

People, I love all animals, but I've also seen enough to know not all animals are good and not all the bad ones are that way because of humans. Just like people, animals can have physical or mental issues that impact their behaviors. So we shoot the people? Of course not, but we're not talking about people, we're talking about horses. Nutty people don't often weigh 1000-2000lbs and have the muscles and strength to bash your head in with their hooves!

Where in the world did the common sense go?

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

This post certainly has gone all over the place Parmela...your are so right. I posted an experience earlier about an extremely "mean" horse that I had encountered...hoping that possibly it would make "some" aware that you never know as long as you are dealing with equines, just what you might encounter. Never say that you would never used the stud shank in the mouth to protect yourself, because someday you may come across a horse that you just have to handle this way. I did not post my experience to act "superior" to anyone...it was just one that I thought was worth sharing.

I went back to read the OP again and it wasn't really only about mini's..it was about a stud shank in the mouth in general. The horse I encountered was very capable of "killing" someone. He mauled people and when he did it..it was more like a pit bull with numerous bites...hanging on and shaking people. He meant to kill..no doubt. I saw it with my own eyes. I was a single mother..needed a job..so I worked for this trainer...it was not my horse..just one that we all had to handle when it was our turn...and you just better figure out how to live through it.

A few points about this particular horse....

He had eyes like I will never forget...they actually sunk back into the sockets a little and they were "always" glaring.

He was always treated with the utmost of respect..never yelled at, hurt or disrespected.

He was an intact stallion...but never bred up to that point.

He was physically "sound"....no bone chips old fractures, injuries or anything.

He won his fair share of races...not a stakes horse but a good solid "allowance" horse.

He was dropped in for $25,000 and "claimed"...very sadly I am sure...for the new owners.....but our barn threw the biggest party ever

...don't worry the new owners were warned....but I can't help but wonder...just how many people he hurt in his new home.

I will end in saying....that I "love" my minis....this is why I have them...they are wonderful..my 11 year old grandson can handle "any" of them that are here. I don't worry for my family's safety. My stallion "Hello Fire" is the smartest and kindest horse that I have ever owned (big or small)...you go out...call his name...he runs to you..puts his head into the halter and you can do anything you want with him....to me...this is priceless!!!

Would I euthanise a horse like the thoroughbred if he were here on my farm today..... "absolutely".. I wouldn't think twice about it. Why would I take a chance of passing that nightmare onto someone else and how....just how could I live with myself "knowing" that someone was most likely to be mutilated or killed?

Do I feel superior because I encountered this horse....not at all...I was just a broke, young girl needing a job. But it did make me aware that these kind "do" exist...most thankfully a very small minority of them do anyway.

And it also made me realize that you should never say never on using any piece of horse equipment....there could be a time when your life depends on it.

 

[HGFarm]

Sherri, you have seen the look that I am talking about- to me, the eyes are the windows to the soul. This is what I refered to as 'red eyed' look. Not meaning bloodshot or something wrong with them- it was the hatred, pure and simple- that never left the eye. Black hearted, red eyed, what ever you want to call it- I have seen a couple of horses in my life that I swear were the spawn of Satan- and thank goodness they are few and far between.

For those who have never experienced the pleasure of being attacked or even just bitten by a vicious horse- when horses bite, they do not bite and release- they bite and pull- so whatever is in their teeth when they yank their head away is coming off with it.

I had a friend in high school who was nearly killed by her own mare one day- she was leaning into her tack box to look for something and the mare reached down and grabbed her by the back. It tore a bunch of muscles out of her back and that girl was never the same- even after surgeries. This was a mare this girl had owned for years and the mare was never abused and had never done anything like this before. It was just a random act of grumpiness or something- I would hate to see a horse on a full blown attack with feet, teeth, etc.. with the PURPOSE of terrible bodily harm. And yes, it is terrifying because whether in a box stall with one or out in a pasture- guess what? There is no way you are going to get away.

There is a time and place for everything, and I agree to never say never when it comes to experiences you may come across in life. As a training aid, teaching to lead or general use would I use a chain in the mouth? Heck NO- but sometimes in some situations the key to survival is that you may have to resort to something you would not ordinarily do.

Mini Gaits, glad you lived through that one because I know JUST the kind of horse you are talking about... and it's scary.

 

[tagalong]

Mini Gaits, glad you lived through that one because I know JUST the kind of horse you are talking about... and it's scary.

Yes, it is. Another one I met in passing - although I never actually worked with him myself - was also a TB stallion. He shared a lot of these characteristics as well...

He had eyes like I will never forget...they actually sunk back into the sockets a little and they were "always" glaring.He was always treated with the utmost of respect..never yelled at, hurt or disrespected.

He was an intact stallion...but never bred up to that point.

He was physically "sound"....no bone chips old fractures, injuries or anything.

He won his fair share of races...not a stakes horse but a good solid "allowance" horse.

Except I think this one had a couple of stakes wins to his credit.

He had that look... that steady, cold, haunting glare. He had injured a few grooms and a stablemate (he went after that horse when they were working on the track together) before the trainer sent him to my friend to be rehabbed. And after a week with that horse, my friend who could work with anything and had reformed many horses in the past, called the trainer back with his honest evaluation. He said that the horse was not fixable and that nothing could overcome the issues he had and it was only a matter of time until he killed someone. He needed to be gelded to see if that would help - and if not, then euthanized. The owner balked because the horse was royally bred and could still make $$$$ on a stud farm - but the trainer prevailed - he was gelded and later put down as being a gelding did not change his behaviour in any way...

It was nice to see common sense prevail over $$$$$. And sad to see a horse that disturbed...

And I did not relate any of that ^ to be superior in any way...

edited to remove horse's name

 

[Genie]

A gentleman in this area was trying to help a stallion which had tangled it's leg in a fence while trying to attack a horse on the other side.

The horse grabbed the mans' leg in his teeth and after about a year of trying to save the leg, it had to be amputated.

I have seen the "look" that HG Farm posted about.

I had a farrier helping me with a riding horse and he said "Genie, you have to get rid of this horse because she is going to kill you". She was an appie mare that would be fairly normal one day and "wild eyed" the next.

She had "Impressive" breeding which I was told would often produce some sanity problems and had never been handled up until she passed one year of age and I was stupid enough to buy her.

I don't like seeing cruelty, for the sake of being cruel...no one does, however, even the miniature horse could hurt me if it wanted to, so I am going to protect myself using whatever practice is needed for that particular animal.

Every horse that lives here today is perfect and a joy to be around but I have had a few that were annoying, over the 20 years we have been in the "horsie business".

My observation is that the horses who have not been very happy on Nixons Hill have been horses that their previous owners never handled. I guess they were still "wild horses" in their head.