Study of genetics

[Neil]

With all of the discussions lately about problems with our minis it makes me wonder just how many breeders give any thought to the genetics of our minis when it comes time to breed. I know I could never have bred dogs for as many years as I have without some understanding of genetics.

 

[chandab]

I had several genetics classes in college, general genetics. And, more recently started studying equine genetics; just self study, not formal classes.

 

[anita]

Born and raised in Germany we had Genetic classes in school was a must.

I bred Stafford Staffordshire Bullterrier as a hobby, involved with English breeders as mentors and many

classes there in gentetics. English are great breeders! BTW I raised 2 Worldchampions Spain and Mexico Europe CH. ect. Well, we had only 2 litter in a year and 2 females allowed.

I bred also Peruvian Paso took my 5 best with me to USA and were sold in just 4 month. It made the check I got to sell them. Last month I watched their offspring at Nationals in Fort Worth and it made me very proud.

All I know in my childhood was Shetlands, Welsh and horse shows, good life for me. All my fathers honor was to show his own bred horse. I'll never forget in my entire life.

Might be common in our family genetics.

A

PS Can hardly understand to breed bloodlines ( mentioned one horses name only) to bloodlines with grand-grand-grand........children, long time not one drop blood in and call it linebred.

 

[anita]

Forgot

I raised 8 years alpacas for living had over 100. We were 4 breeders in the Nation with a special breeding program. My friend Mike S was my mentor and he said: We do it so......... and we will have the best. We did!

It was fun

A

 

[Jill]

NO, I have not. Not beyond the tabby cat / black cat charts in high school!!! However, I try to keep an open mind and try to learn every day. I can identify things that I like and do not like in a horse. I've used that to re-organize my breeding and show horses the past few years (upgraded -- sold some, bought some). I hope to use that to help produce nice foals.

I'm not sure a formal education in genetics would be any more beneficial than a basic understanding of horse conformation, which would then be expanded on by learning about type, and refined through years of experience breeding and showing?

Not trying to argue as I think I get your point, and pretty much agree. I don't think many of us are scientists. Most of us give our honest opinion on things -- but what are those opinions worth? It really varies!

One thing about this "place" is there's a wide range of knowledge, intelligence, talent and the desire to learn. A lot of good information to be had, and a lot that's not worth much no matter what "credentials" someone may think they have. A life time of breeding horses (with consistent improvement? or with no improvement over time?). Just got a horse last year. Had horses 5 years but really spends time learning and applying. Had them 20 years and knew it all yesterday but today ask something so basic to entry level horse care (maybe for attention... drives me nuts!). Even many people who published books through the vanity press (from the wonderful to the questionable). But, if something's in print -- you know it's a fact and they're officially an expert. Just so many levels of expertise here. SO interesting to compare the tone of what's said to the reality of what's in some barns, what their horses looked like at the show last month (heck, even how they presented themselves). It can be enlightening, entertaining and completely annoying.

 

[nightflight]

Hey Neil,

Have you read the art of breeding better dogs? I picked it up awhile back, the history behind the way people think about genetics is interesting to me. I don't think I've ever seen a better book about line breeding and in some way breeding ethics.

Breeding beautiful animals really is an art and a science. I think many of those who suceed are artists and scientists. They might not know all the right terms, but the process is there.

It can be enlightening, entertaining and completely annoying.

That made me laugh!
I think the formal, or self taught, education comes into play when we are looking at something like the topic

that is flying around this forum. It's genetic, it's medical, and it's going to take some scientific thought to figure it out. Those breeders who are part artist and scientist may be able to aviod the problem of that topic through vision and skill, but otherswill need a little help.

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I answered no because other than a gut course in college I have not done in depth study of genetics but do read everything I can get my hands on as it relates to horses so maybe I should have said yes. I assumed you were talking about the specific study of horse genetics.

 

[Loess Hills]

Science courses in college.........reading as much on my own as I can find on horse genetics.

I keep referring to Barbara Naviaux's book again and again as it has such good clear information on coat color, dwarves, and genetics. The World Magazine also has some excellent articles over the years.

Would really like some recommendations on specifics texts on horse genetics. Anyone have suggestions?

 

[ckmini]

I'm a freshman in college majoring in genetics, and would love to see something done about the genetics of dwarfism in minis! However it all comes down to funding and the money to get the research done.

Edited to add that after some quick reasearch, the equine genome is far from being sequenced, although all the colors appear to be mapped.

 

[Darkstar]

Equine Genetics & Selection Procedures is a good book.

 

[Dona]

"

I've been following many of the treads relating to dwarfism, as so many of us are. I would hope that we could share information without "pins, needles and knives." I have followed this forum as a guest for some time. But recently joined, just to say that as a guest, I was shocked at the way people point fingers at one another here. I am NOT talking about the threads where people have asked for critiques of their horses. (When you ask for criticism, you must be prepared.) There are "good" breeders and there are "bad" breeders. Who decides? If I don't like what you breed, are you a "bad" breeder? Breeders like different things. There are breeders who will move conformation forward or in a different direction. Are they "good" or "bad"? Thank God, our little ones come in so many colors! The conformation has changed--we cannot compare apples and oranges--or horses that are called "foundation" minis to what we are breeding today. There were some "foundations" that could compete and win today--even after all this time! But some of those "foundations" are now suspected/known to be "faulty."

We all like different things and "see" different things. Just read some of the critiques! "Back too long, neck too short"--the next one reads, "back is not too long, neck is of nice length, and not stretched". We see with different eyes, because each of us likes differences in our horses.

I am just surprised, as an outsider, as to some people's "meanness" to others. Let's just discuss facts and call them facts. Let's discuss observations and call them observations. Let's discuss experiences and call them experiences. We can ALL learn from eachother. "Old hands" can learn from "newbies", but we must be careful with our presentations. Hopefully, we are promoting the breed! If I was new to horses or minis, I would be downright "scared" with some of what has been said here. I might reconsider entering the world of miniatures--and it would be a shame to scare someone away from such a wonderful breed.

Wonderful post....I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Arion Mgmt]

I am pasting what I wrote in another thread, like I said I would, this really doesnt talk about dwarfism, yet I think most of you know where I stand with that issue.

On a side note, For those of you that have answered the thread with regards to studying genetics whether general, plant or animal, or even Equine. If you answered yes to it, and still have the opinion that the Miniature horse is a true breed, you need to go back and reread all that you did before. Also if you think that the Miniatures will eventually be able to breed consistent heights and stay under some arbitrary height, you need to go back and reread your books, and more. Height is a KNOWN QUANTITATIVE TRAIT. It is not an either or, i.e. blue eyes or brown, height is highly variable, and is consistently shown to have a bell shaped curve result in animals no matter what the restrictions. So, you will ALWAYS have outcrops, AGAIN ALWAYS. Height will NEVER be controlled to the extent the AMHA wants given their requirements, ESPECIALLY if they are going to continue to allow hardshipping. And they better not close it because there is no reason to, no type or pedigree requirements to get in only height.

So to say a 35" horse out of A parents is not a Miniature, is WRONG, genetically it is. It is a Miniature genetically, it just did not fit into AMHA's arbitrary height limit. It just didnt all of the sudden become a Shetland did it?? Does it fit that type? (even though they go back to them) Heck Thoroughbreds go back to some Arabs but if they dont run fast enough are they Arabs now?

Now that said, since we have a curve on height, and STILL no "type" that we are to breed for, when are we ever going to be able to breed for anything remotely consistent? NEVER. PERIOD.

Some of us breeders have tried to breed for a type and not a height to see something we dream about to possibly produce somewhat consistently before we die. And yes you will HAVE to sacrifice some height issues to go anywhere to breed a true type, the ones that consistently breeds true to a type. All of you dog breeders know that when breeding dogs, and get a litter, you get a range of heights and qualities in a litter. That is how dog breeds can be made so much faster, changed faster than single birth animals. A Jack Ruussel that does not fit breed height requirements but is a quality Jack Russel is stiil a Jack Russel, it just cant be shown, it isnt all of the sudden a Collie on crack. Horses dont have that luxury that dogs do and height is a variable trait that can be managed to get to a true type. But again AMHA does not want that because they use judges at Worlds of all breed types, so the horses that win will be of all types, so again everyone is happy and everyone's horse has value in someone's eyes. We will never be a true breed with these issues to deal with. And this has nothing to do with color, yet. I will be happy to copy past this part to the genetics poll thread too.

BTW I have had a number of Genetics classes, graduate school as well, my graduate work is specifically in Equine Genetics.

Respectfully,

John Eberth

AMHA Genetics Committe Chairman

University of Kentucky Gluck Equine Research Center

Arion Management Inc.