The Problem with Measuring

[funnybunny]

Riverdance, what do you mean that some trainers "sew in mane hair?"

You mean suture it in??? OUCH!

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance, what do you mean that some trainers "sew in mane hair?"

You mean suture it in??? OUCH!

Unfortunatly, yes

Though, those that know how to weave hair in to human hair can weave main hair down the back of Minis.

 

[Jean_B]

Question please? I don't show so I do not have a clue: Where do you get the people to measure the horses; how are they chosen?

Herein lies the rub....the measurer can be any "Joe Blow" off the street. Case in point...I was hired to help out at a show which shall remain nameless at this point....to help with paperwork and to do the announcing. Show management had hired someone's cousin or something like that WHO DID NOT KNOW ONE END OF THE HORSE FROM THE OTHER.

However, the person was late in showing up, exhibitors were lining up to measure, I had my stick in the car, so I started measuring. Once I start, no one else can measure. The person who was supposed to have been there FINALLY showed up - and didn't even know they were supposed to measure at the last hairs of the mane!!!!!!!!

I FIRMLY believe the show organizers asked this person to measure because they COULD BE EASILY BUFFALOED in order to get horses to measure 'in'.

And I DQ'd several horses!!!! One was a gelding that had been showing ALL SEASON long. First time the guy tried to stretch him so his belly was almost on the ground. Told him to square him up and the guy snarled but did it. He dug his fingers into the horse's back - told him to keep his hands off the horse. He snarled again. Then tried to push the stick down to the middle of the horse's back. Told him if he touched the horse or the stick once more he would not be measured and instantly DQd. The guy finally let measure and I got him at 35.75"....and this was a horse that had been showing all year!!! Told him he could bring him back later for another try. Got him at 35.5.

Then the same guy brought up a yearling filly that I measured at 33.75". Yes, I DQd her as well. And boy were they POd!! My response - bring legal horses next time. Funny thing .... the club putting on the show didn't ask me to come back to help the next year....SURPRISE... SURPRISE.... SURPRISE (NOT)!!

So to answer your question - As long as a person can hold a stick up and knows how to write down numbers, they can do the measuring. They do not have to read the rule book. They do not have to participate in any training. Heck, they don't even have to know what a horse is!!!!!

Time to go to LICENSED stewards / measuring people!!!! People who have to PROVE they know what the heck they are doing by completing training and a test on the rules and being evaluated by a panel of authorities. And while they are at it - testing them for how strong their back-bone is.

 

[R3]

Edited... replied to the wrong thread.

This has been moved to the 'Concerning Ed Sisk Post' thread.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If you want to see problems with measuring to the withers, obviously you will, but there are none, honestly.

OBVIOUSLY the horse already measured to the last hair would stay registered.

No problem.

Obviously the offspring for around three years would have to remain measured both ways.

No problem.

After three years people should have got their act together...

No problem.

This is the response I get every time I say I shall no longer breed from under 30" mare "Oh I never have a problem" BUT the problem with breeding form under 30 " mares is that, at the moment, you aren't.

You are breeding from under 32" mares, and I don't have a problem with my 32" mares, not usually (obviously I can, any mare can have a problem!!)

So, we do have problems with tiny mares.

Answer :

Don't breed tiny mares.

No problem.

DON'T measure somewhere else (why not the knee?? Measure to the knee, why not??) so that you (generic "you" BTW, no names intended here) can claim to have a 6" horse!!!!

In Europe we measure to the withers.

We have horses that are under 34 1/4 " (that's what it comes out at rounded up to centimetres)

We do not actually have a problem!!!

Of course we have arguments at measuring, of course we have the same arguments as you, but I honestly cannot see anyone standing for bullying or abuse.

So, as I have said all along, enforce the rules already in place, enforce them HARD, add new penalties to already in force rules and , as Ed says, get it right the first time.

Right, I am done with this as it appears to me to be a no-brainer.

I will support anyone who wishes to put a sensible proposal forward about measuring or voting, but I can see little purpose to

on this thread as I know it will soon degrade into

which will lead to

and

which is pretty much pointless

 

[wpsellwood]

Time to go to LICENSED stewards / measuring people!!!! People who have to PROVE they know what the heck they are doing by completing training and a test on the rules and being evaluated by a panel of authorities. And while they are at it - testing them for how strong their back-bone is.

sorry I hate to have to disagree, but the last several years, the amha has used the amhr licensed steward/measure person and we still have the same problem.

 

[McBunz]

wpsellwood

The answer to this would be for you to leave your horses at home once or twice a year and do the measuring for a show... The same goes

for other breeders that know this cheating is going on and want to see it stopped..

 

[Joyce]

Well said Ed Sisk. There should be more folks like you to speak up.

A friend of Pete Aldrich,

Joyce L

 

[R3]

I think that the 'accuracy' of the measuring is as much (or more) related to the 'mindset' of the Show Management as it is the 'honesty' or 'compentency' of the person doing the measuring. The Measurer may get more pressure from Show Management for everyones' horse to measure 'in', than they get from the trainers or owners. Show Management is concerned about 'big' people (exhibitors with many entries) being 'happy' and returning to their shows in the future. If 'big' exhibitors don't return, small shows, and the clubs that sponsor them, face financial ruin. At worst it can break a club, and at the least mean that the club can no longer offer shows as they can not 'break even' on the expenses without the participation of the 'big' guys.

I agree that it should be done right, the first time, and every time. But, if some shows are 'lax' and others are 'tight', and exhibitors have a choice of where to show their horses, they may opt for the 'friendly' Show Management, and the 'tight' show may die from lack of entries. I know this is not a huge consideration in some parts of the country, but in the Oklahoma/Texas areas, there is more competition for entries, and how to encourage people to come and spend their money at your show, vs. others that are available, is something that is always on Show Managements' mind.

As I said in another thread, this is not to 'condone' poor measurment, but it might offer another explanation about why measurements have been 'lax' at a lot of local shows, and for reasons that have nothing to do with the 'big' guys bullying or intimidating the measurers.

 

[McBunz]

Who are these Show Managers.. ?????? Are they not AMHA Members.. ??????

The cheating is probably loosing them more entries than they would loose

by doing things right... Who in their right mind would enter a show knowing

they don't stand a chance in %#&& with all the cheating that is allowed...

If these Show Managers are AMHA members they need to be replaced

or maybe even loose they membership if they are telling the person

measuring to let them all qualify..

 

[R3]

McBunz - The Show Management is usually just 'regular' members of a local club, like you and I. They are people who are willing to be on a 'show committe', when no one else is willing to put forth the time or effort. They are not some kind of 'cheaters' who are wanting to do something 'wrong'. They never said to anyone 'CHEAT'! They just want their show to be a success, so that they will bring in enough money to be able to put their next show on, for all the members. They aren't catering to the 'big' guys, but to their own membership. They may never has 'said' anything to anyone about how to measure (most likely they didn't), but it is just a 'feeling' that permeates the atmosphere. And, there are trainers and owners that 'imply' they won't be coming back for the next show, so that adds to the atmosphere.

And, lax measuring does not mean that an 'honest' person can't win because of 'cheating'. For one thing, the 'laxness' goes across the board, so whether you want it to or not, you or I would also 'benefit' from it if we were at the show. Plus, a taller horse is not always 'better', so its height alone is not going to make it win, and you and I lose. The horse still has to have better qualities to beat another horse. Yes, in minis, the taller horses seem to have a better chance, as they tend to be more proportionately 'leggy', and leggy horses tend to score better, but a tall, round, and dumpy horse isn't going to beat a well proportioned 'true' height horse, just because the poor quality horse is taller.

I don't think that lax measuring is losing more entries than it is saving. If someone is upset about it, they can protest. But, as we all know, that doesn't happen very often, so I guess that means people are not too upset about it. And, I don't think they boycotting their local show because of it. The 'honest' people need to have the shows too. They may not be able to travel far to go to other shows (like trainers can, as other people are paying their expenses), so having a local show is important to the little guys.

Again, I wish EVERY show was 'tight' with the measurement. Then we wouldn't have so much controversy at the Championship and World Shows, and there wouldn't be any reason (perceived or real) for lax measuring at any show.

 

[R3]

While looking in the AMHR Rulebook, I found this:

G. The Steward hired to measure animals at the

competition is responsible for their true measurement

and the Steward may be subject to penalty if it is

determined that a measurement is incorrect.

This speaks to what some people have discussed. According to this rule, at least in AMHR, it IS the Steward who is ultimately responsible, and that there can be 'penalty' taken against them if the measurements are not accurate. It doesn't state what kind of 'penalty', but maybe it is a place to start?

 

[McBunz]

This sounds to much like condoning the cheating to me.. The people responsible for entering the horse in the wrong height division is and should

be responsible.. The person on the other end of the rope... How is allowing this to continue to going on helping anybody...???? I have said before

and I will say it again... Bring in another Division for over sized horses and let them compete and be registered in the AMHA.. But don't let them

compete as AMHA horses or against AMHA horses 34 inches and under... Call them foundation or anything else you can agree on, but not

AMHA horses.. Open the books and let everyone reg. their over 34 inch horses as foundation or what ever it would be called.. I know this is

not the popular answer, but neither is allowing the cheating to continue...

 

[nootka]

Thanks, wpsellwood, for posting this, and thank you, Ed, for saying it.

I agree, and refuse to cheat in order to win, even if it's possible for all to cheat, now, to make the playing field level. It's simply not my feeling that it's making a better "under 34" horse"

Liz

 

[R3]

I just wanted to post again to reiterate that I am OPPOSED to ANY lax measuring, and that I believe it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to speak out against (and do something about) any violations of the 'rules', whether it pertains to measuring or any other Rule, Regulation, or By-Law.

My posts have been trying to give a more complete view of what I PERSONNALY believe has been going on. I am not trying to condone it, just explain MY PERSONAL beliefs of what I feel MAY be some of the motivations.

I personally spoke up, very vigorously, whenever concessions in the measuring process and in the protest measurment area were being expressed at the Annual Meeting and June Board of Directors meeting. At times I felt like I was the 'enemy', and that my remarks were not appreciated, but I made them anyway.

I am not a 'big' guy, and I don't even bother to show at halter. I like the non-glamourous class like halter obstacle, hunter, and jumper. None of my classes are divided by height groups, so all I personally worry about is being under 34". Since the last horses I showed are only around 32", and I personal breed for the 'tinies', I have no personal interest in letting taller horses show or be admitted to the registry. I have no personal gain in my horses benefitting from 'lax' measurement at a show.

I just wanted to make my personal perspective clear.

 

[Charlotte]

R3,

You go girl! Thanks for your well thought out and expressed posts and for doing what's necessary to be involved and try to make improvements for us all

Charlotte

 

[McBunz]

Who is doing the measuring at the Worlds??????? Will this measuring be done right??

 

[wpsellwood]

I was told there is a team measuring at worlds at each of them measuring at each championship show. From what I have heard from the east and west coast is that they are measuring on the money and no slacking. Thats just what I heard we go this week so will let you all know.

 

[Magic]

And, lax measuring does not mean that an 'honest' person can't win because of 'cheating'. For one thing, the 'laxness' goes across the board, so whether you want it to or not, you or I would also 'benefit' from it if we were at the show.

I just want to respectfully disagree with this statement, that "you or I would also 'benefit'" from "lax measuring". Not true, because when *I* stand up my horse for measuring, I stand my horse square and step back, no parking out, no heads to the sky, no horses trained to sink their backs down at the touch of the stick. Even if the measurers are "lax" and letting people get away with that, I'm not going to join in, and most of the people I know won't either. So there is no "benefit" to lax measuring for many of us. Do I sweat out a horse measuring in? I have a horse or two I've shown that are very close, yes. But since I tend to measure tall myself, when I get to a show I generally don't have anything to worry about, they easily measure in with room to spare.

Btw, honesty is its own reward. I've lost to cheaters before, but I've also BEAT them, and didn't have to do any cheating of my own to do so. I'd rather lose and have done the right thing, than cheat and win.

 

[McBunz]

wpspellwood

Thank you for your reply.. I hope you are right..

magic

Right on Magic... if it is not an honest win they might as well buy those pretty ribbons they brag about at Walmart...