The Problem with Measuring

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just came back from 2 A shows and my little gelding just over 30" grew 2 inches in a week. go figure- different place, different stick, different measurer. Same ole story, so I just go with the flow. He gets remeasured in 3 days at another A show, lets see if he shrinks or grows more. ha ha. I swear, my 36" gelding will be hardshipped into A's before you know it.
 
I would like to hear what other people who attended this show measured in at compared to what their horse actually is. Maybe if enough people attending this show complained to the hosting club, this person would not be allowed to measure again...
 
I really think that changes can be made for the better now that Pres. Want, Ed Sisk, R3 and Mr. Sellwood and a few other admit that things have gotten out of hand over time..

Likely many of these things were going on even before their time as board members so no blame is being put on anyone.. I truly hope these issues will be addressed and corrected

in both associations.. This is a huge step in the right direction.. " It is broken....now lets fix it together".
 
I believe that if you are someone who has taken the measurement your horse has been receiving at most ANY shows, of either registry, but perhaps especially AMHA, in recent years, AS ACCURATE, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. Why? Because I firmly believe that very, shall I say, 'casual', measurment has been the 'order of the day' at MANY, maybe MOST, shows--INCREASINGLY--for a number of recent years!

The result of this 'casual' (most often, IMO, deliberately understated) measurement is people who are unwittingly incorrect in their belief about the heights of (their) horses. I have frequently read of those who say, "my horse is so-and-so" in height, then make it clear they are relying upon the measurement given at some show. It is fairly often stated-" I measure tall at home"--when what I suspect is often happening is that they are closer to accuracy at home, but at many shows, there is a conscious trend toward increasing 'leeway' for all--or at least, all but perhaps the 'newest of the newbies', who are naive and often unknowing, and the like. This conveys a perception of INACCURATE height to owners/handlers, who may then be upset when a strictly ACCURATE measurement is taken. This serves NO one, creates tensions and dismay--yet I'm convinced, has become more and MORE prevalent in recent years--and, IMO, has contributed to the current serious situation.

I believe that a lot of owners never measure their horses. Of those who try, many may do so w/o proper equipment and/or a correct situation--which means, FIRST OF ALL, a provably LEVEL location for horse AND measuring device to 'stand'...I do not say this to be critical--although I do believe that if you are a SERIOUS breeder OR exhibitor, a well-maintained 'official' measuring 'stick' should be budgeted into your necessary supplies.

Above all, you do what's necessary to be sure that you have a PROVEN LEVEL 'spot' on which to DO the measuring--'JOB ONE'! By that, I mean, an area of a MINIMUM 2' X 3' for A's, probably longer for B's--that is LEVEL, and which accomodates the four 'squared' feet of the horse, AND the 'leg' of the measuring device! Trying to obtain an ACCURATE measurememt it pointless UNLESS you do the above--and in addition, follow the 'set -up' and handling rules precisely!

Following precise parameters would also be VITAL to any measuring proposal, whether it be wicket or laser--it is NOT that difficult ,and IMO, MUST be addressed FIRST and FOREMOST!

May I add that it is almost certainly NOT going to be possible to locate a large enough 'spot' for obtaining accurate measurment on ASPHALT (pavement)--by its very nature, asphalt is NOT truly 'level'!! (Yet, in a recent phone conversation, a professional shared that he'd been asked to provide horses for an official AMHA measurement 'exercise'--and the plan was to do it on ASPHALT...!?!) Excuse me, but that would be an 'exercise in futility'...you are HIGHLY unlikely to get a truly accurate measurment on an asphalt surface, period!! NO WONDER there are issues with the 'training' of the measurers...with this kind of approach EVER being carried out!!

I believe accurate measuring is both an art AND a science. It is IMMINENTLY 'doable', but it WILL REQUIRE certain proper circumstances, followed by a proper, precise, 'no excuses, no dodges' approach. To that must be 'added' the full support of the registry from the top management down for STRICT ADHERENCE TO, and ENFORCEMENT OF, the rules that already exist!!!!!!

I have no doubt that there are those who've gotten a (VERY, in some cases) 'friendly' measurment on a 'permanent' card (for the year)--the suspension of the 'permanent' cards this year changed nothing, because LAXITY IN MEASUREMENT IS WIDESPREAD, mostly for the very reasons outlined by Julie(R3) in some of her earlier posts--i.e., the pressure on local shows to allow 'everyone' in, or risk the loss of enough support to even offer the show. As a longtime show chair and member of our local club's show committee, I can verify that these situations DO occur!

Here are some events from my PERSONAL experience....

The last time I SHOWED at AMHA Worlds(Nationals), was, I believe, in 2002. I took two mature geldings, of 33 1/2" and 34". I took my horses for measurement under 'normal' circumstances...not wet, not cold, not 'immediately off the trailer', not food or water deprived. The official measurer that year (you can look her up; she is also a multi-carded judge of some years' duration), set the stick down on each horse's back WELL---I'd say a full 2"(and as a trained artist, I have a very good eye for aspects of proportion, distance, size, etc.)-- BEHIND where the last hairs of their manes grew out of their skin. I am a skillful clipper, do not and would not leave 'tails' of body hair running down the back! Surprise, surprise! BOTH of my horses measured 3/4" shorter than they ever had, anywhere, anytime. I was dumbstruck! Did I protest? No. What difference would it have made? She *might* have remeasured my horses, but they still would have most certainly been 'legal'--and it would not have changed how she measured the NEXT horses!! In my opinion, this showed an 'official' intention of laxity in measurement...I thought it then; I still do today. Like Magic, I have NO interest in having ANYONE 'cheat on my behalf', so to speak....and if my horses were too tall, I wouldn't taken them to the show....end of story.

In 2003, a friend and I went just to 'see the spectacle'. She was 'horse shopping', though I really didn't realize it until we arrived in Ft. Worth! Long story short--I then pointed her toward the trainer I respect for that trainer's abilities. My friend 'fell in love' w/ a nice gelding, and we looked him over well. His 'official' height was posted at 32 3/4"; on my INSISTENCE, we measured him ourselves(my friend purchased a Sligo Stick then and there to do so!)--under less than ideal circumstances, we measured him several different times. He 'came in' at 34", but NEVER under except by the merest amount--not even 1/4"! She would verify that I bluntly told her I'd hold her down and SIT on her before I'd let her buy that horse if he was in fact OVER 34"! He was and IS, a 34" horse--yet he'd received an 'official' measurement of 1 1/4 " less than that! (And BTW, the then-owner was, and is, a 'big name owner' in AMHA...)

While looking at horses for sale at the show, I was struck by seeing a blue mark (supposedly marking THE place to measure) on the backs of a horse or two-newbie owners, to be sure, who hadn't bothered to 'erase' the mark...and they WEREN'T at the last hair of the mane, but well behind that(more like at the hard-to-define 'base of the withers'!!)

My point is---that this has gradually gotten worse and WORSE; when enough people finally become COMPLETELY fed up is when things 'blow up', as they have in recent years at World. It is MUCH better to NEVER allow the rules to be broken; when you have gradually allowed matters to become worse, then the 'cure' will always be harder--those who have 'pushed the envelope' further and further, and NOT been called to account for it, feel very 'entitled', and can become very NASTY. It will take well and properly-trained persons of the HIGHEST ethics and NOTHING they 'owe' ANYONE, along with thick skins, to repair this situation.

Finally---I am VERY appreciative of Ed Sisk's public comments on this subject, and of how many have expressed THEIR appreciation and support! However, I had to smile, because I, and not a few others, have expressed VERY similar thoughts, about this issue-- more than once, on this very Forum! How good it is to see them now being discussed AND taken seriously!

Margo
 
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LOL -- Looks like there would be a mass exodus to the office to be escorted OF the show grounds . What a joke. AMHA makes them selves look more foolish with every turn of events. Now -- measure over to 34 1/4 to be "safe"'.

ED -- I think you have the right idea-- DO IT RIGHT.

However, it is sooo long since AMHA did it "right' I am not sure they would know how to.

I no longer have any faith in them or their decisions at all.

I was a showing member for 4 years in AMHA -- have been a member for about 12 years. We only bought AMHA horses & then put them over to AMHR.

I belong now only because you "HAVE" to be a member to do any business at all with them. (Another money ploy -- )

ALso -- I would no longer ever buy a horse that was registered ONLY AMHA -- it would also have to be AMHR as well to be marketable to me.

Sorry -- I agree with you ED but they have too many chances to change & "DO IT RIGHT" . Now it is highly unbelievable.

GOOD LUCK !!

For those that choose to show AMHA & measure over 34 inches by that lee way of 1/4 inch . -- HA -- you now are showing an AMHR horse under AMHA "flag colors". Don't kid yourselves-- that is what you have.

According to the great AMHA statement -- anything OVER 34 inches is NO LONGER a miniature horse in the "elite ' society.

Have had my say-- flame away. Showing your horse in its true division is not really so difficult as it is made out to be here.

Try it -- it is actually rather fun.!!

Join AMHR .

I left your entire rant in place because it's so funny, biased and not true.

The main thinf is that you don't have to belonge to AMHA in order to do business with them (unless the rules have changed recently). It's AMHR that has that rule.

And to showing, I guess you haven't noticed but, most AMHA trainers are now doing AMHR shows because the pickings were easier. You will see the same AMHA registered horses at "R" shows as you do "A" shows and yes, it's because AMHA won't let 34" and under "R" horses show in thier shows. That's one thing that's losing them a lot of money just because of the hard headedness of the "old member's" way of thinking. Same as them not letting the 34" and under "R" horse be registered into AMHa at a reduced rate. There's a lot of revenue being lost they could do.

Bashing AMHA is of no advantage here because most show horses are double registered now and every show is basicly an AMHA show with the national trainers showing their AMHA show string.

Each registry has it's own faults and I'm sure with your thinking, they don't miss your money. I used to sort of think the way you do but, I grew up and learned the facts and changed my way of thinking.

Too bad the registries aren't as perfect as you hoped.
 
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I applaude you for saying there is retaliation--there have been countless PM's sent in support of rule enforcement by those that feared retaliation. It's sad when AMHA members are afraid to voice their concerns because of it. Thank you for pointing out that it does exist and is a real concern for many.

Diane

C.A.R.E.

Concerned Advocates for Rule Enforcement

Excuse me but, retaliation is done in AMHR also. This comes from someone that protested a horse and was then black balled from showing or selling horses from then on. I also know of someone else that protested and she was black balled also. Showing horses was her livelyhood. She just stopped showing and believe me, that was a great loss for the miniature horse world. She was a very good trainer and she didnt abuse the horses. I don't understand why all that's evil is AMHA!!! There was a time I believed that also but, not anymore. AMHR has closed the gap.

I was asked at an "AMHR" show, "how tall do you want your horse to measure in?"

Another show I had an honest 38" horse and said it was and it was measured in at 37.25" AMAZING!!!
 

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