Thoughts/Experiences with Getting "Older" Mare in Foal

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'm looking for some guidance/advice/general thoughts on a subject. All opinions are welcome! Just no

I have been planning to breed one (for sure) and maybe two mares for 2013. Both are what most would consider "older" but still in the sweet spot, in my opinion, for being mothers. But after having a conversation with my vet today, I'm starting to have some doubts.

My plan was to take both mares in for a full breeding exam. I normally wouldn't do this with experienced mares, but one hasn't been breed since 2009 (she had a healthy colt in 2010) and the other had a bad dystocia in 2011. So I wanted them both checked out prior to attempting any breedings. Goldie is 22 this year (she had the colt in 2010) and Butter is 21 this year. Butter had a bad dystocia in 2011 and her previous foal was born in 2008. Between 2009 and 2010 she was at the stallion owner's farm (sire of the 2011 foal that didn't survive due to the severity of the dystocia). She was sent home in 2010 as "open" so after almost 2 years of trying we decided to give up. Well, of course it ended up she was in foal. My first thought after the dystocia was "no more." But as I look at her in the pasture, how healthy and vibrant she looks, I started thinking I'd see what an actual expert (vet with a lot of mini-specific reproduction experience) had to say. Goldie is going to be sent away to an outside stallion so she needs a clean culture, etc. anyway, so she'll just get the full works to make sure the vet doesn't see anything obvious as to why she shouldn't be bred.

So, today I call to make the appointment and vet mentions how with older mares (her opinion of older was late teens/early twenties) sometimes need to be "kept in foal constantly" (her words, not mine) or they stop being able to reproduce earlier. I admit I had heard this before but had always thought it was sort of an old wive's tale. Not so?

So, she was thinking that Goldie may not take anymore due to her age, plus being left open since foaling in 2010 and Butter may not take due to damage from the dystocia (which would make sense to me) or just due to her age. I sure always thought of a healthy mare in her early twenties as having LOTS of breeding life left to her. Am I wrong about this? Seems to me, I'd have to go back to my records to recall for sure, but Puddin' had her last foal for me around age 26.

Gosh, I LOVE older mares! If I had my choice, I'd always purchase a mare over 10 any day of the week over a 3 year old! And I always considered about 14 - 24 the PRIME years. Am I wrong about this?

Would welcome any opinions, thoughts on the matter.

Thanks in advance for your time.

(I am hating the new emoticons/process! Is anyone else having a problem getting them to work correctly?)

 

[supaspot]

my thoughts are that I agree completely with everything your your vet says , Ive always been told that after 18 yrs old the fertility decreases , personally Id never consider breeding one so old , I think just because they can doesnt mean they should , my cut off point would be late teens . I think by the time they get to that age they deserve to relax and enjoy an easier life

 

[Becky]

I have no problem breeding an older mare as long as she is reproductively sound and is otherwise healthy and can maintain her weight.

Your mare that had the bad dystocia will for sure need a breeding soundness exam. She may have scar tissue that would keep her from getting in foal, but you can't see that from the outside.

I bought a 17 yr old mare last year and she is heavy in foal now. She's a gorgeous mare and I hope to have several more foals from her.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

IMO if they need help keeping in foal then its just not meant to be.

 

[Joanne]

Depends on the mare. I have a 24 year old in foal now. She could easily get in foal every year, but we breed every other year here, prefering to have them have a year with the foal before rebreeding.

Some mares, no matter how old they are, have a difficult time getting in foal and keeping their foals.

If the mare gets in foal, there is no absolute that she will require drugs to keep her in foal.

It is certainly easier if you own the stallion and she does not have to be sent away for breeding.

There is a lot to be said for taking great care of your horses through the years. These are the ones that seem to be able to continue breeding in later years.

 

[ohmt]

Parm-we have actually never had problems with our older mares getting in foal. We have a 22 yr old mare in foal that hasn't had a foal for 6 years and two 21 yr old mares that are in foal that were open the last 2 years. They are very healthy and have no trouble keeping their weight-i don't think anyone would know their age if I didn't tell them. I like these old mares too, they are just so much easier to deal with

Now the 22 yr old mare was bred through 2 heat cycles, but the other 2 mares were bred 1 day on their first heat cycle and are due in April. They are up in our foaling barn right now

I had always heard what your vet told you so really wasn't expecting them to foal this year, but I was pleasantly surprised. You are right, I really do think they are in their prime. I have trouble calling them old!

I would be weary about Butter, but with a full vet work up to check for scarring, etc then as long as she is healthy, I say "why not" to trying as long as you are aware of the risks involved, which I know you are.

P.s.-sending you an email soon!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

The last seminar that i went to which was last year said that statistically mares started to have reproductive problems around age 13, so the best reproductive years were before that.

Now not all mares start having problems at that age! some it is much later in life, and some much earlier. That age of 13 was just statistically speaking.

I have a vet that we use his name is Dr. Blackwelder, and he is referred to around here as the "repo" man, meaning he could get horses in foal that were hard breeders.

One of the biggest problems in breeding is clearing the debris from the act itself. So you would like to breed the mare as close to ovulation as possible with hopefully only one or two coverings.

Dr. Blackwelder also uses a flush that is 5 cc of Penn, and 2 cc of Amikacin in 120 cc of sterile water. any mare under 10 years, flush one time, if the mare is over 10 years flush 3 days in a row. Dont worry about cultures, biopsy's and all that expensive stuff, its a money pit,. Dr. B says if this flush does not cure it, you dont want it! other types of infections such as fungal types are hard to rid, and even with flushing s every day for a month, it is not likely to get the mare in foal that has that type of infection.

Luckily most infections (80%) are strep that are easily cured with cheap penn.

He (Dr. Blackwelder ) , treats your money like it was his money, and trys to save when he can. I have used this flush on several hard to breed mares with EXCELLENT results. Flushing is easy when the mare is in heat, because the cervix is wide open and you can easily slip the sterile pipit in! anyone shown how to do it properly can do it, I routinely do it when my older girls foal, and usually get them rebred on the foal heat! It works!!!!!

Good luck with your older girls! and hope you have some outstanding foals next year.

 

[Suzie]

I just had the same discussion with my vet last week. I have 3 older gals here I really want to breed one more time to my new stallion. One had a foal last year, I left her open for 2012. One had a filly in 2010, left open for 2012 and one had a foal in 2009 that died in the birth canal. Not really dystocia, the foal pressed on its cord on the way out and we could not revive it. Perfect in every way, not the mare's fault really.

He basically told me the same thing Dr. Blackwelder said above. I asked about a 3 day flush for the 2009 mare. I doubt seriously she has any infection, but since it was a lightly assisted birth, I wanted to double check. He said it may work, may not and probably wouldn't make that much difference. Fertility just declines after age 13.

SInce all three mares are 21 to 22 and they still cycle regularly, I am just going to give it one more try. If they catch fine, if not, no problem. They have done their duty for me and if not for this new stallion, I would not even try. I would just LOVE to have some of these crosses to keep one last time- Fishers Jim Dandy, Little Kings Blackberry and Shadow Oaks mares....before I lose that line totally.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I would also like to add, that if you want 3 foals out of a mare, or six foals, or how ever many that you want, yo need to breed that mare that many consecutive years. Every year a mare is left standing open her chances of getting in foal drop by half. That is not something i say, it is a statistical fact! Every (knowledgeable) equine reproductive specialist will tell you this. If you want to give your mare a year off, that is fine, but do not be surprised when you have to work a little harder and do special things to get that mare back in foal. Mare are designed to be bred every year, that is how mother nature set things up. We humans would never do that, but equines are not human, and we should not impose our feelings and emotions on them. If your mare "takes" a year off for what ever reason, try to get her back in foal as soon as possible.

 

[Marty]

So, today I call to make the appointment and vet mentions how with older mares (her opinion of older was late teens/early twenties) sometimes need to be "kept in foal constantly" (her words, not mine) or they stop being able to reproduce earlier. I admit I had heard this before but had always thought it was sort of an old wive's tale. Not so?

I have heard this for years but don't know if there is any fact to back it up.

I've been down this road with a quarter horse mare. We did this and that and the whole repro thing to no avail and guess what? I honestly felt that after so much was being done to her, in my heart of hearts that if one has to go through so much then it isn't meant to be. To me it set off something in my gut as a warning. So in my little pea brain mind I began to think that all our medical "help" to get a mare in foal is un-natural and therefore something bad would happen so I let it go and never bred her again. I'm a big weenie like that.

 

[Riverrose28]

Parm, like you I'm conflicked on this subject, I'd like to more help but can only share my experiences. I had a 17 yr. old paint mare, that was bred every year of her life from the age of five. I bought her but had to give the foal back after I foaled her out. I let my human emotions get the best of me, and decided to let her wait a year to be bred back. That was a mistake, after four tries I had to give up, she just wouldn't take and the vet when palpating couldn't find a thing. It was before the days of sono machines. Next we bought a brood mare, arab, she had had several foals and we payed a small fortune for her. She was 16 and hadn't had a foal for two years, we sent her to be breed, she took, was palpated in foal, then aborted, same thing happened three times, vet said too much scar tissue. I have a 22 yr. old mini mare, the dam of my heart horse, and a produce of mare Champion. She had her last foal in 2010. I haven't been able to breed because I don't have the money saved to cover a dystocia or any foal problems. I'm hoping to have some money saved this year from sales, and would love to breed her to my stallion for the same result that she gave me before, with another Champion, but even though she cycles, I'm not sure I want to risk her. The only way I will now for sure is to have her vet checked, then go for it, or give it up. I'm on the fence on this one, wish I could offer better advice.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Wow.... This has been a very interesting read. I have to admit I've not done any of my own analysis on the actual statistics of the subject, so I find that information very interesting indeed. I guess it does make sense, if I take all the anthropomorphisim out of it, they are animals that left in a natural setting would almost surely be rebred year after year, until nature said enough.

As for Goldie, her foaling record is 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 01, 04, 08, 10, with her 04, 08 and 10 foals being ones for me. Her statistics seem to buck the trend I guess. I know for sure there were no miscarriages or dead foals between 04 and 10 as she just wasn't bred on the off years. Maybe she will take just fine. (hopeful)

As for Butter, her foaling record is 96, 97, 98, 99, 01, 05, 06, 07, 08 and 11 (dystocia). So she also has a couple of gaps. As for her not getting in foal in the almost 2 years before her last one, I can't say what the "issue" was. She was specifically selected, after her conformation and seeing pics of her previous foals, based on her consistent foaling history by the owner of the stallion. But once she got there, nothing happened and she was finally sent home in Aug of '10 as open. We all know now she was actually in foal about 4.5 months at that time if my math is correct. As for what caused the dystocia, I will never know for sure. All I've been able to come up with after all this time is that even though she looked "normal" at 6:00am on the cam, she in fact must have been in labor and I just didn't see the signs. I took my shower, got dressed, went out to feed and there she is, sac hanging half out, and obviously a stuck baby. I can only assume she had pushed for so long with a baby that was malpositioned that her uterus had had time to start the shrinking back down and that's why when I went inside and I could feel the dome of the head, it was like pushing against a brick wall. There was NO room to push the baby back any to get even one foot or the nose. After the fetotomy, she was obviously in bad shape. She was flushed 3 or 4 times, once each day, following and was on two weeks of antibiotics (2 different ones) while she recovered. Although, the vet did say by the 3rd or 4th day of flushing that her cervix had tightened up so he wasn't sure how much was actually getting in to work at that point. But we did it anyway since it was easy for him to stop by each night on his way home.

So, if Butter was either deemed unsuitable for one reason or another, I wouldn't be surprised. But learning that of Goldie was disappoint me some in that she's in such good shape and seems so otherwise young. But that's all on the outside; could be a different story on the inside.

I do appreciate all the responses, and the emails, I've gotten! Please feel free to add!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

If Goldie was my mare, and i wanted a foal out of her again, i would sure give it a whirl! remember these are just statistics, spread out over hundreds of mares and breeding situations. Every mare is an individual and i think Goldie should try to beat the odds!

 

[Riverrose28]

Parm after some thought, I'm with Lil Hoofbeats, why not just go for it, and see how it turns out. I'm rethinking breeding my old lady too, and may try again with this stallion after I get my sale horses bred, and some money in the bank. Good Luck, let us know how it all turns out! Best of Luck, Terry

 

[Riverdance]

I have a 24 year old mare. Dam of multiple AMHA World Grand Champions. I got her as an 18 year old and she was in foal. Did not like the colt she had, did not like the stallion she had been bred to. What a waste of a good breeding in my mind. She is an every other year mare, so two years laster i had a really nice black colt out of her. Then the next year i bred her to a different stallion. Ultrasounded in foal, put her on Regumate, but no foal. Last year with the move, I did not try too hard to breed her...of course she is not pregnant for this year. I too would just love to try again, a filly would be nice... You would never guess that she was 24 years old. She looks and acts like a 12 year old. I figure, i will put her out for the summer with the stallion. Either she does or doesn't get pregnant. If she does, GREAT if she doesn't she still has a wonderful home for the rest of her life.

 

[Lizzie]

I remember when I was young, a horse of 17 was considered old. That whether mare or stallion/gelding. But things have changed greatly, over the years. There is so much more information out there, regarding quality care, food, medical care and more. I now consider old horses, those in their late 20's and over. I know of a Gypsy mare, who had foals every year, from probably 3, until she was over 25. Now, she fails to concieve. My daughter has 3 Arabians on her property, who are well up there in years. Not being bred, but are in superb condition. One older gelding, is in his mid 30s and still doing very well.

If older horses are in excellent condition, have had no previous foaling problems and have produced quality offspring in the past, I don't see a reason for not breeding.

There again, if mares of any age, have a history of difficult foalings, savaging their offspring or rejecting their offspring, then I think they should be removed from the breeding pool.

Lizzie

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

There again, if mares of any age, have a history of difficult foalings, savaging their offspring or rejecting their offspring, then I think they should be removed from the breeding pool.

Lizzie

So Lizzie (and others chime in also please), am I reading that you feel if a mare has had a previous dystocia, she probably should not be bred again. I'm not picking a fight with anyone, just wondering what other opinions might be out there. Butter is my one and only (thank god) difficult experience. I've heard others say they've rebred mares with a problem and had good experiences forward, but I don't know how common that is.

Either way, Butter has a home here. Her being able to reproduce is not a criteria for whether she gets fed, cared for, loved on, etc.

 

[Suzie]

I just have one more thing to add. When I first started in breeding horses, I agree, I was told 17 was "old". However, things such as nutrition and research on hay quality. ect have come a LONG way. The feeds now I feed are much more balanced with nutrients to support aging horses. etc. Just as the human life span and quality of life have been extended, science has been working hard on equines too. My "older" mares are in excellent shape and act like the younger ones on most days. I have a 32 year old gelding that my vet thought was 20. It could be the research done earlier is becoming out-dated quickly due to better quality nutrition. It will be interesting to see what the future studies reveal.

While horses in their 20s are still on the fertility decline, it may be we are pushing the stereotype of the "old" horse further and further out. Perhaps some of these 18 year old horses are now the previous 12 to 13 year olds, just as 60 is now the old 40 for humans. Wouldn't that be wonderful?!

 

[ohmt]

Parm-my vet and I agree that as long as a mare that has had a dystocia is healthy, inside and out, there is no reason why she should not be bred because of it. Most dystocias that I have had, the foal most likely died beforehand, which is what caused the dystocia. We have had a leg back every once in a while, but an easy fix. The ones where we have needed a vets help, the foal has had its head twisted around and in those cases my vet has said they are usually deceased already. The mare can not help that. There are so many different factors that goes into why there is a dystocia-i have never had a mare have a dystocia twice, but then again most of our mares are only bred for 5-8 foals in their lifetime so maybe mine are not the best examples to take from

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I'm with you, I love the older mares!! I would go with 10 years-15 yrs or older if I were looking for a broodmare. I love the experienced mares, they know their job! I have a 21 year old mare, and I know the facts that she is less likely to get in foal if I leave her open, but I know her and it's not been a problem. Yes, I expect at some point she will no longer be fertile, but that won't stop me from trying to breed her again! I don't think I will be breeding her this year, but I do really want to try again next year.

Just to compare, she was bred 95, 96, 97, 98, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 08, 11. I've had her since 2001 and I've given her time off with no problems. I've never had any trouble with any of the mares I've owned (all Minis) that skipped years, but I know as my vet explained to me in the past that any year you don't breed the mare and have her in foal, there is a risk she may not get in foal again. I've never considered any of my mares so valuable reproductively that they had to be bred every year.

Yes, I do plan to retire my mare from breeding, but she loves being a mom and having babies. I thought her foal born in 2011 would be her last, but she did so well with the pregnancy I see no reason not to try one more time.

I'd say if they are in good health, holding weight, and pass the repro exam, no reason not to try breeding them!