Time to talk,,,trusting,,,,,buying, selling

[Tony]

I am so sorry for the problems that you have had. I guess I am extremely lucky to have been in the business for so long and have had fewer problems than it sounds like you have had in less than two years. I have sold a few horses to people that were less than honest and have had to take the horses back, but overall have had many years of good experiences. Please hang in there, your luck will turn around!

 

[Frankie]

Tony,

do you sell on payments? And can the horse leave?

For sure, for me, that was my #1 biggest mistake.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

I've been lucky too - have had a few deals that didn't work out over the years - usually I ended up putting more money into the horses involved and losing it in the long run... but in the long run I've found that by "going with my gut" I usually come out OK.

We've worked hard to establish a reputatuion for being honest and fair, and I do have to say that I generally get treated that way. of course, if the "radar" says something isn't right, I don't go ahead with the deals.

I even tell potential buyers who come to look at horses for sale to "go with their gut' - that if one of my horses doesn't feel "right" to them, they shouldn't buy it!

 

[Frankie]

Thanks so much for sharing, I do appreciate it. I didn't mean to bring more bad news to the forum.

I just don't like being this way at all, it's not me. I guess I can't change who I am, and I just need to do all the right things, plus, go by what I feel.

Hope I didn't come across as whining, didn't mean to.

Thanks to all who were so much help that pm'd me.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

That is about the same as my situation.Put a deposit on a horse. Was told, " is an AMHR Show horse",

well, it was an AMHR registered horse that showed. And they claim to have said that.

I took it as it showed AMHR shows.  Again, my fault. I did back out of the deal. The horse had only been in fun/local shows, for mostly big horses.

It did win in all 3 shows, but were no other horses in the class.

I felt when they said it was an AMHR Show Horse, they meant showed AMHR.

It is up to us to make sure we understand the statement.

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Well lots of people put there show results up on there sale and or web pages however very few put how many horses were in the classes so I take show results with a grain of salt anyway unless it is a National class and even then depends on the class and if it has anything to do with my goals for my program.

 

[Tony]

Tony,do you sell on payments? And can the horse leave?

For sure, for me, that was my #1 biggest mistake.

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Yes, on both counts.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Carolyn, You have good reason to complain. These people who scam others need to be strung up. Not only do they damage us but they damage other people by making them leery of doing buciness with anyone. I sure wish there was a way to let them be known to unsuspecting people. It costs all of us. Hugs and here is hoping for the best outcome. Mary

Thanks so much for sharing, I do appreciate it. I didn't mean to bring more bad news to the forum. I just don't like being this way at all, it's not me. I guess I can't change who I am, and I just need to do all the right things, plus, go by what I feel.

Hope I didn't come across as whining, didn't mean to.

Thanks to all who were so much help that pm'd me.

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[HGFarm]

It's ok Frankie, sometimes folks just need to 'vent'!!!

 

[Cathy_H]

We are also fortunate in that all of our sales starting in the late 80's have gone well.................... As for trusting again, I will tell you there ARE still honest people out there............ I know what it feels like to have been used. I have experienced the disbelief that a person would cast aside friendship in order to gain worldly posessions. Time is so short on this earth - as the country song says , "Have you ever seen a luggage rack on a hurst"............................... It will take time to regain trust in people. As in my case, you most likely will never trust those individuals again. You will be leary of everyone in the beginning. One of these days when you experience a sale or purchase that turned out right, you will rejoice as dealing with honest people does make the heart feel good.

 

[horsefeather]

Wow! I could write a book! My husband and I are extremely trusting people. Yes, we have been 'taken' many times. Will it happen again? Probably, but I hope not

I have been very, very pleased, however, with my horses that I have sold, at least in 98% of the cases. I, too, sold a mare years ago to 'friends' holding papers until paid for. They moved, left no forwarding....oh well. At least I can sleep at night. I have NEVER, knowingly misrepresented a horse. In fact, I have lost sales because I was so brutely honest, even to the point (not too long ago) to tell the people, sorry, this horse just isn't for you and I don't have any that would suit you. After talking to them for 10 or 15 minutes, watching how they handled the little guy, I knew there would be NO sale!! They were new to minis, so I wasn't ugly, just suggested they look elsewhere. There was one incident that happened several years ago that was unfortunate! My daughter sold a mare in foal and I was there with her. After going over this sale 100 times in my mind, I 'think' I know what the misunderstanding was. Several months after the sale, the lady was very unhappy when she called me. I immediately offered to buy the mare back for the same price my daughter sold her for. They would only sell her back if I also bought her foal for x amount of money. I didn't feel I should have to purchase the foal. After several phone conversations and letters, unfortunately we couldn't reach a compromise. I hated that. Those of you who know Curt & I know we are honest to a fault!

If I had had the money, I would have bought both of them just so my reputation wouldn't suffer, but I just didn't have enough.

I have also been extremely fortunate in buying horses. Have dealt with truthful, wonderful people.

I guess what I'm trying to say Frankie, is please work on getting your trust back in people. Yes, there are those who will take advantage, but I fully believe there are many, many more that are as honest as you and me.

Pam

 

[Driving4fun]

Boy do I know how you feel!!!

This year has been alot like that for me. When I started in minis. The first one I bought was over the internet by video and pictures. Asked all the right questions which not all were answered honestly. Colt grew up to have the worst temperment and even bit my husband in the groin area. Later the breeder tells me "his daddy was just like that also". Of course this is years later. I sold him. Then I buy a mare who at the time was conformationally correct, later ended up with a stifle problem that was inherited from the stud which they "forgot to mention". Was going to use her for breeding. Sold her as a pet. Then bought a driving gelding that supposedly was shown and driven by a handicapped girl. Bought over the internet, video, pictures, the whole works. He is not what I would consider a childs horse which was how he was sold to me. Still have him. I drive him myself.

Later as time has gone on I have learned a little more about dishonest horse people. Bought some more mares that were already bred, sold the babies but decided breeding was just not for me! Never could get the right stallion and mares I wanted to enhance the breed for the better. ( I hate breeding, just to have a cute baby and say I did it!) then they end up in the wrong hands or at an auction.

So now concentrate on just showing and mainly geldings and pray when I buy a horse that I am doing the right thing!

Out of all the horses I have owned I have two that were what I was told they were when I bought them!

I always give anyone who buys from me all the inforamtion I can on the horse I am selling. I will be the first to tell them if the horse is not what they are looking for and try to lead them to someone else who has what they want!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, let me tell my news of the day!!!!!!

I was just told today about a mare that I sold early this summer to a man and his little girl, that she was killed last week!!!

I only sold this mare because the people came highly recommended to me by my very trusted ferrier! The people kept her at my ferriers place with the promise to move her as soon as they could get the fences up. Time went on and they never got the fence up, ferrier was getting tired of keeping her seperate from his big horses. He seperated her all alone in a small enclosure the day she was killed. She got out that night and ran in the road and a truck hit and killed her. This was a mare that kids could do anything with she would even go in the house with you!

I had been thinking about her for two weeks and finally found time to call about her today and this is what was told to me. My ferrier had said the owner had thought about calling me to see if I wanted her back but had not gotten around to doing it when this happened! If I had only called about her two weeks ago, maybe she would have been back home with me and be safe and alive!

This has been my guilt all day long today!!!

So I guess not only can I trust to buy but can not trust my judgment to sell them either!

Don't get me wrong, not on a pity trip here. Just it gets tiring after awhile dealing with this. I also have the worst luck with friends. I have had a 4 yr long friendship with another lady who we had everything in common with: loves horses, had them all her life, been there done that with them, outside country girl like me, we both have 4 yr old daughters, husbands liked each other, neighbors, so forth and so on! But , the only difference was I was the complete giver and she a great taker!!! I was used, used and reused over and over! Baby sitter, horse hauler, care taker of her horses while she traveled everywhere, owes me many dollars with "We will get straight later", house sitter, my vehicle and my gas used everytime we went somewhere - because she didin't want to put mileage on her new truck, and this can go on for hours with my negativity it all ended at a big horse show when I babysat, decorated her horse for costume, shared many training hours on her horse, clipped, groomed, shared a tack stall WELL LET ME STOP HERE! Lets just say she ended up oweing me big time for money and friendship! Then on top of it all accused me of taking one of her daughters trophies ( which she didn't earn because she was the only horses in the classes and did not even have to do anything but stood and talked with the judge) which she later found she had put it somewhere and forgot it! She lost a great friend, and I lost a piece of my heart. We still speak but I have put a stop to the tight friendship part and we see each other very little. I make sure I get her daughter on occasion so my daughter can still spend time with her, not fair to them in all this! Plus, I miss her her myself!

I am 43 and it seems making friends is the hardest thing I do in this day and time.

Not many women around me who would rather clean stalls than be in the house or shopping. Don't get me wrong I love doing it all. But, just can not seem to find someone who wants to give in a friendship from the heart and really be a friend through thick and thin!

But, through it all - I still want to trust everyone and I try to keep myself open to others. I have faith that God will see me through all my troubles and I am positive he will help you with yours!!!

Please take care!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Carolyn,

So sorry you feel this way. I don't know all the details but it sounds like you've had a horrible year. I would take some time to enjoy your horses, and regroup.

As for the trust issue - it's hard when live animals that we care about are involved. If it were model planes we were buying selling, much of the emotion wouldn't be involved.

I've been burned, badly by my mentor that helped me get into minis, and I've had to suffer with the 'legacy' of her dealings with others - the old painted with the same brush, as people assumed I was aware of her misdealing and did the same thing. Trust can be broken very easily, and is very hard to repair, but time really does help clarify things - for me at least.

I personally chose to look for the best in people, but I'm not blind or stupid. (God helps those that help themselves is very true!) I do my research on minis I want to purchase early in the inquiry stage - the studbook are a help, but a quick call to either registry will give you information on registration status, show history (I believe they may charge for that - but what is a small fee against the heartache?), foaling history, etc. References (vet, personal, etc.,) aren't worth much to me, as who's going to give a bad reference? So, I take alot of what people say with a grain of salt.

I also would not buy a horse without seeing them in person, I know alot of people do, but I haven't yet. It is far cheaper to spend the money to fly/drive to see a horse in person, than to deal with a mistake after the fact.

As for selling, I do allow horses to leave on payments, but the buyer must be personally known to me, or not be out of state. If it comes down to legal action, I want it to be in my state, etc. A visit to the location wouldn't be amiss either. We took a mare to one place I didn't think was the greatest to look at, but where the horses were kept was clean, the horses obviously well cared for (no long toes, water fresh, horses were clean and friendly), so I felt it might not be the way I keep mine, but there are lots of people that keep theres very different from ours too!

I was laughing with Jenn Davis last night about musical horses I've had with buyers this year - she started it - but we've had a four buyers, change horses this year from the orginal one they were buying. I don't mind, I do lose a few months of marketing time, but if it puts the right horse in the right home - that is my ultimate goal. So, I will take a horse back, or help re-market, whatever I can help with to give my minis a good home and have buyers happy with their purchase.

Caroyln, I hope sincerely you can enjoy the holidays and start 2006 with a positive attitude and outlook.

 

[Amy]

We have been lucky I guess. WE bought good horses from good people & have never had a problem. We have bought some & sold some on payments-- have brought them home to Canada & have never had a problem-- could return & buy form any of them again.

The only problem we ever had with a buyer was one from the forum here-- wanted to buy this mare in the "worst" way-- exactly what she was looking for-- Had to be ultrasounded in foal -- seemed reasonable-- so we ultrasounded-- had to have certain vacinations-- did that -- pulled the blood got the coggins-- asked for 25% up front - balance on delivery -- we would deliver her for no extra charge (15 hours one way) just to be sure she was transported properly). Got real indignant -- had never been asked for more that $200.00 up front -- that would not have even covered our gas for delivery). Finally backed out totally -- had found the same deal for less than 1/2 our price.

So we had spent over $200.00 for tests, vacinations , rabies etc for a horse that never left our farm -- so now, nothing more than an ultrasound will be done again iwthout a good downpayment.

Same deal??? Ours was ultrasounded in foal to a National Top Ten stallion-- free delivery - 6 years old -- & they bought a coming 2 year old filly (that translates as a yearling to me) !! for 1/2 price-- No more sale talk with that farm.

So, please don't paint ALL Canadian breeders with the same brush-- I know not all American buyers are like that one person.

We have made wonderful friends through buying horses. Bob & Frederika Wagner at FWF -- Lowell & Marie Boone, Little King Farm, & last but not least Walt & Fran Filipowicz. Great people & great horses --not everyone will agree with me -- but I take people as I find them.

Right now, we have 2 horses here that were sold last summer-- things happen-- we have them for the winter-- we know then that they will have all the care they need & hopefully life will be back on track for the people by summer-- in the meantime the little boy knows his horse will still be his horse.

 

[disneyhorse]

The way I keep everything in perspective is to remember that first and foremost... it is a HORSE. I NEVER assume anything is guaranteed with an animal... health, breeding or performance soundness, perception of conformation ("straight" legs, "good"bite), temperament, show record or show ability... I assume that what I am buying is going to be a little WORSE than I expect it to be, and that the price I am paying is for it at it's worst... that way I am pleasantly surprised if it's better than represented. I love to have recommendations on the horse or breeder, it makes all the difference in the world to me. I also happen to be a big "repeat customer"... If I have bought a horse from you and have been pleased by it, you can bet that you will be the first place I start to look again when I get a new horse.

I have never been burned by a buyer really... I am pretty careful to make sure that they go to the best home I can find, even if it means at a lower price than I'd like or that I have to wait a while to get the price I want to the right home too. I am also big on contracts and following them, whether I am the buyer or the seller. They have REALLY protected me in both cases as a buyer AND seller! I could have been seriously burned but my contracts protected me so you can bet that it is SUPER important to me to have them for ANYTHING!

I am a VERY honest person, and very trusting... I feel that if I expect it out of others, than I must be myself.

Sorry for your misfortunes... but that is life... and the most important thing is that you LEARN from them and how to avoid them for the future. They can be expensive lessons, but take them as you get them.

Andrea

 

[Sanny]

After reading all the post, I think we've been very, very lucky in the limited buying and selling we have done of horses.

When I first got into minis I was fortunate enough to discover the forum and was active on here for several months before we bought our first mini. I learned a lot and avoided many of the beginner mistakes. I haven't sold a mini yet but in switching over from big horses to minis I sold a few big horses.

As a seller, I've been very careful about buyers and if I've thought (or even just had a gut feeling) that a buyer and a horse are not right for each other, I've talked them out of buying the horse. We did sell one - a thoroughbred hunter jumper - as is, no vet check and without papers - and with a contract - for $5,500 and two months later after finding out via the discovery of his papers that he was several years older than even we had thought we did research to find out what his adjusted value should be and we refunded $2,000 to the buyer. Two years later they still have him and are happy with him and everyone involved in and aware of the situation felt it was the right and honest thing to do. We could have refused to do anything at all about it but that would not have felt right to me.

As a buyer I've been lucky and all the minis we've bought so far have met or exceeded our expectations, including having bought a couple long-distance via just a few photos and in one case, a video. I've been visiting websites and contacting farms about horses I've been interested in and so far I've felt all the potential sellers we've been in contact with have been very honest and up front about their horses.

Well...wait....we did drive several hours and arrive to pick one up only to find out he was missing most of his tail (I didn't think to ask if a tail was included or not

and he had one in the pictures we'd received, the seller said he was primarily a performance horse so he didn't think a missing tail was important) we never got the whole story on the missing tail and I spent a lot of time feeding supplements and massaging Shapely's MTG in to encourage it to grow back. We bought him anyway and he had a fantastic year finishing with winning the ammy hunter title at nationals with my husband.

Along the way I've learned too, that the mini world is very small and it doesn't take long at all to develop a good or bad reputation and it is VERY difficult to overcome the bad/negative reputation once you have it. As a newbie I had lots of people warn me about certain people, trainers, farms, etc. and though I eventually formed my own opinions based on what I saw and experienced first-hand, I did take all of that advice with a grain of salt and avoided learning what would have been some very expensive lessons.

On the same token I also had just as many people steer me TOWARD those in the industry that were honest and knowledgeable and helpful and whether good or bad not one thing I've heard about someone or their horses has been proven to not be true yet.

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[Frankie]

I really want to thank you for your responses. There have been a few comments that have helped greatly and I appreciate it. I think we can all learn from this in a number of ways.

I also wanted to add, with other things going on,,,,,,even though I did not go into detail about my cases, even though small amount of information given, I would not have brought them up at all if I did not have proof that they are all true. I have kept everything and with what I have I could convict the Pope if he had been the one involved. I do not mention these things lightly, and want you to know I can back up in great detail, each and every claim.

I would take some time to enjoy your horses, and regroup.

What simple, great advice.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Face it guys - this is life and there are good people and bad people in all walks of it! It is not just a "horse people" thing. The thing I do when I meet up with someone who is one of the bad ones is remember all of the good ones that have been and still are in my life. For every bad thing that happens to us there are probably dozens of good things, it is just the bad moments that really stand out probably because they hurt so much.

When dealing with horses we can do a lot to make our own luck - good or bad. Learn as much as you can about your breed and the people in it. Talk to everyone you meet about the horses and the people they know or have dealt with. Research every buy or sale. Know that you have done everything you can on your part to be happy with what has transpired and if you are disappointed with either a buy or a sell chalk it up to experience and learn from it - don't let it get you down by dwelling on the negative.

 

[xxs]

It is too bad that some people think they need to lie or talk "around" the truth. But, I do understand why they do it. I have a mare for sale that is tall..that is, 37.5-38"...I never get the same measurement twice in a row. I have had MANY inquiries about her. And, I always tell them she is tall, and not for young kids..she isn't mean, just very opinionated.

I always answer promptly and NEVER ONCE! have any been nice enough to just say "no thank you" . They just don't reply EVER! I could never do that to someone..just leave them hanging.

And, after once replying to someone, within 2 days time there was someone who posted that they asked about a horse and was told that it was tall...and said that was so rude. I would like to ask...How is someone being honest, being rude??? Now, I don't know that the post was about me, but it was just that it happened so close to when I replied to that person. AND...the funny thing was that people on here were sympathising with her that yes, it was rude...that one STILL has me confused! I could have lied to her and said that yeah..the mare is 36.75 like her papers say...but she isn't!!

So, am I wrong to tell the truth? I think not! I will never not be truthful about any of my horses!

On another note, I have had several purchases that I made on trust..three by pictures only,and one that was completely sight unseen..and they were both more than I could ever have hoped for. So, I do trust people sometimes. I think there are more good people than bad.

 

[HGFarm]

Frankie, after re reading your post, I am not sure why you are letting one experience with a bad buy ruin your life and your trust in people. It seems a bit overly sensitive in regards to what happened and sounds like it has been a while but you are still really dwelling on it? No the person was not completely honest with you perhaps, but I cannot judge that as I dont know who they are or what you were told in regards to your purchase. (I have always found there are two sides to a story and if doesnt directly involve me, I take none)

I have bought a couple of horses that I was not quite happy with, and found out later the people hadn't quite told the truth either, and they were resold. Yes I was angry and I just learned my lesson, cross those people off my list of folks to deal with, and move on. There are too many NICE people out there to let it continue to ruin my life.

There is an old saying of 'buyer beware' and that is up to the buyer to make sure things are 'in order' before the purchase. If you are not sure, ask questions. Never 'assume'.

If there are questions about things, put it in writing, whether buying or selling.

To xxs, I HOPE that the comments were not directed to you about being rude. Being honest is not being rude!!! I would rather know what's what up front, and dont like to beat around the bush about things. I find some folks are just a bit hard to deal with and have difficulty figuring out their perception on life in general. Ah well. It's what makes life interesting, eh?