To me, this is child abuse

[Pepipony]

I have an illness that can be passed to a child ( not a 100% given, but a good chance) , so, we dont have any, I will not take that chance. So this queary is soley based on an illness/disease that a person has, that they can pass and that they have stated that they wouldnt wish it on their worst enemy. This isnt about an illness/disease that can be dealt with and is more a nuesance than a problem. And I am NOT making light of that type either.

About 5 years ago a young woman joined a list for this illness and she wanted a baby BADLY. Dreadfully so. She was told by people living with it, Drs etc that she could pass it along but she went ahead and got pregnant and as luck would have it, passed it to the child. So now she has a developmentally/Physically challenged child. Her husband left because he couldnt deal w/both of them being ill, she never told him there was a risk.

I am in shock that we value life so much, it doesnt matter the form , that this isnt considered child abuse. Or child endangerment. This poor woman is always on complaining about how this illness is effecting her, yet she has willingly and wantingly submitted another to it. Boggles the mind.

The people that have this illness are split, obviously so. I can see both sides, but I want to see the view of the unwilling participant in this.

So, how do you feel?

 

[Jacquee']

Well, I would agree with Pepipony. I do not believe in "life at any cost". Personally I think that is wrong. Is this not the very thing we are grateful for in veterinary medicine? That when the suffering is so great, we can choose to end it for our dear horses? In my opinion, this should apply even more to a child. If the woman Pepipony is speaking of wanted a child so badly, why did she not adopt one of the many very needy children there are in the world? To me, this speaks of selfishness. I am very saddened by this.

 

[nootka]

I feel that this person took an unnecessary risk with a life that was not yet begun, and she did not likely consider the effects it would have. It sounds to me like she was thinking of her OWN needs and noone elses.

To have a child to feed one's emotional "hunger" is never a good reason. There is so much to raising a child, a healthy one, even, that to go with the great risk of having a sick one is sad and unnecessary.

So many little ones are needing good homes and love, and I'm sure it may have been a possibility or maybe genetic counseling of some sort could have helped...perhaps testing prior to conception like they do with the fertilized eggs (not sure if this is possible, but I know in some cases that it is).

I do agree with you on this one, and I myself could have never lived with my conscience had I intentionally brought an injured/damaged child into the world when there were other options. It happens often enough without that choice, and I know some will say "but god wanted it to happen or HE would not have let it happen" etc., to me this is not a valid excuse, we have to be more responsible as human beings, and we have to have our own sense of right and wrong, and to me, this is wrong.

Believe me, I have a couple of step sisters that had child after child because they "loved babies" and think they're cute, etc., and guess what, both were addicted to heroin and/or meth, but they kept on having them and the state kept taking them away so these little children have broken lives, health issues all because their stupid mothers wanted something to cuddle. In one case, the baby was born to her in jail, and she never really got to spend more than a few hours with the baby as it was taken to its foster home right away. This is JUST TOO SAD and I wish it were possible to sterilize people like this, but it's not and there are issues there.

I'm sorry for that baby and I'm sorry for the father who unknowingly got involved, but how is it that he didn't know this disease would be passed on, and why didn't he take measures to "cover himself" if you know what I mean?

How sad...I hope for the best for the little one, who deserves all the mercy he or she can get.

Liz M.

 

[wade3504]

There's a possibility that a child could end up with something whether the parents passed it on or not. The doctors said there was a chance she could pass it on. Was it a 100% chance? I have been told before that I could have children and the doctors said I probably wouldn't pass it on. How do they know? They don't know how we even get diabetes. I never tried even though I wasn't told I couldn't. I am happy knowing that I can adopt but some people really want to have their own. So, I don't consider it abuse as even though the child now has a disease it is not like she intentioally did it to give the child the same disease. There was also a chance that the child would not have it. If I knew my mother had done that to have me I think I would rather have been born with a disease than not be born at all. If my mother knew I might have diabetes so she shouldn't have me I wouldn't have wanted her to change her mind. So, I do not consider it abuse or endangerment. At least that child has someone to turn to who has and is going through the same thing whether the father is there or not.

Amanda

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]If the child happened to be concieved... by accident or that really isnt a good word because God doesnt have accidents..... Then no it isnt abuse for that child to be born but rather to me it would have been murder to abort it. A life is a gift of God and only He has that right to end it. I do think that it is selfish to want the child and have a "no matter what" attitude.... Depending on what the illness is, since it isnt stated here we cant surmise , diabetes, for instance is manageable. If it was something like Tay Sachs, ( a jewish marker) or Thalacemia major , Something that is life threatening to the child , and it was me deciding, I would elect to have a tubal to prevent pregnancy. Once the pregnancy occurs then that is a life and has God given rights to be alive.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[mininik]

In my opinion, there are way too many people having way too many babies, period! :new_shocked: There are now approximately 6.5 BILLION of us here on earth and over FOUR MORE people are born EVERY SECOND. If some people would stop breeding and others would stop having more than one child per couple and still others would have no children and just adopt our population would be able to balance out and the world would be a much better place for everyone. Until that happens, I think it's abusive to bring any more people into this mess, healthy or otherwise!

:

 

[Pepipony]

I'm sorry for that baby and I'm sorry for the father who unknowingly got involved, but how is it that he didn't know this disease would be passed on, and why didn't he take measures to "cover himself" if you know what I mean?

I think he just turned a blind eye. Sad to say but with an 'invisible illness' the spouses are at a loss, we look good, therefor we must be. Add to that the fac that the medical field is split on treatment, some say treat, others say no. Its a big ol mess.

Amanda, hon, this wasnt about an illness that can be treated. I know the devastation that diabetes can bring, and did bring you. This is about an illness that is far worse, one that a person would state "I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy", then willingly pass it to a child. To me these are 2 completely different things.

While I do believe in the preciousness of Life, I do not believe that it is a given thing, a right. As someone stated we lovingly and caringly will put our fur babies out of misery, yet we allow our loved ones to suffer needlessly. There comes a point when breathing isnt life anymore. I have seen this first hand w/my father. Bless his soul, he languished far longer than , probably, any of us would have allowed our fur babies too. So this subject is near and dear to me. Again, this isnt about letting someone die because they went blind, or lost a foot or somesuch, but someone that is just 'alive' and no more.

Mininik, you are after my own heart LOL :aktion033:

 

[Miniv]

If there was over a 50 percent chance of my child having a dabilitating condition and I consciously went ahead and purposely got pregnant....I would say I was being horribley selfish.....even MORE so if my husband was not informed of the situation!

You all will think I'm crazy here.....but in the grand scheme of things, we ALL have choices. The mother made a choice to get pregnant and NOT tell her husband the risks involved. The husband and father had his choice on how he was going to deal with it....(stay and be a dad or leave)......and believe it or not, the child's Spirit had a choice on whether or not to be born into the situation. Yes, we do choose our parents or "non"parents......often as awful as they end up being. But I happen to KNOW that with each life we choose, we are choosing to go to this school of life on earth and it can often be filled with heartache and tragedy. (Go ahead and Flame.)

The beginning of all this is the mother's "choice" in her life. And that is the tragedy. She never needed to "give birth" to be a mom. She and her husband could have adopted. Why don't people ever consider that option???

MA

PS: I just wanted to add.... Does anyone remember the poem written by Robert Frost about the "Path Less Traveled By"? I think Mr. Frost was an amazing enlightened man and was writing about our Choices in Life. Unfortunately not enough people have read it.

 

[Chaos Ranch]

My opinion is.... should one kill oneself if they discover that they have a heriditary illness? No way.... not at all. Is anyone's life worth less because they have a hereditary illness? No way. Would society be better off with that person gone? NO. Do I think we would live in a better world if everyone was born wihtout blemish. Not even close! Should we be selectivly mated to "breed out" our faults and imperfections... now that's just silly..... that's a very emphatic, no.

We're living in a soceity that is promoting perfection. Perfect car, perfect home, perfect body. Phooey! Perhaps it's simply the lack of compassion and empathy that drives these people to wish that imperfections didn't exist because they cannot deal with imperfections properly ????

:

I have a hereditary disease. It causes you to go blind, or nearly blind. It has NO cure, and there is no treatment to slow down progress. I have a 50% chance of passing it on to my children. It travels on the "X" sex gene so if one of my son's get the disease, there is a 100% chance that every female child they produce will have the disease as well and a remaining 50% chance that every son they sire will carry the disease. So far, out of five children (I suppose I am one of those people who are "breeding for children" but I just cannot find a reason inside myself to apologise to anyone for that.) my two eldest sons have been diagnosed with the disease. My 3rd child is a daughter, she has also shown signs of having the disease (it's a progressive disease and we have to wait until she is older to diagnose her). So far, my fourth child, a son, shows no signs, but again it's an age progressive disease and he may just be too young yet to show signs. My youngest daughter shows no signs yet, but she's only 5 and it doesn't normally "show" well until they near the ages of 12-16.

If God or a doctor or anyone had come and told me when I was 16 about the way this disease works. about the probability of reproduction of the disease, about everything.... would I still have 5 children.... 100% absolutely, without a doubt, enthusiastically Yes! Am I sad that they are affected. Yes. And, No.

Yes, and no... what kind of an answer is that. My kids will most likely be blind...what kind of an answer is that for me to say.

Simple. Those little imperfections that set some of us apart from each other....that some say cause us to be weaker, or less desirable as friends, or family to others..... those imperfections quiet often concieve the most compassionate, caring, understanding, kind hearted, generous, and intelligent people in all the world and I would not trade that for perfection any day.

That's my opinion.

:

Edited to add that Robert Frost had a "disease" also that is heriditary. His family had a history of depression and nervous disorders, yet he had children. 6, a son who passed away and a miscarriage included. Robert Frost had trouble staying in school as a young boy because of his nervous disorder, his sister had to be commited because of hers, and his daughter was miserable in her marriage and divorced because of hers, daughter Irma was institutionalized because of her mental depressions, and his son, Carol commited suicide late in life because of his depression. Frost, after the death of his wife Elinor became very emotionally unstable as well. Also, his wife suffered great manic episodes of depression as well during her life. Though not what many consider a disease...depression can render it's afflicted as "disabled" as many other diseases.

 

[mountain_waif]

Kim, your post is beautiful.

I really don't think that unless you have been in a situation like this that you can judge another. However, I don't think it should be classified as child abuse.

Lois

 

[Relic]

Very well written Chaos Ranch.

 

[mininik]

: Just two words: Birth Control! :worshippy:

 

[Pepipony]

Once again, this is being misconstrued, or maybe I wasnt clear enough. This isnt about an illness that can be dealt with, this is about a fully life altering illness with no chance of treatment. The child is nearly 4 now, cannot speak, cannot crawl, has no real control of motor function. To willingly DO THAT to a child is no better than shaking the fire out of it or giving it drugs. This is the worst case of this illness in an invitro passing that I have read about. Usually the problems arent quite so severe, bad, but not this bad. its a luck of the draw what you get.

Something that can be dealt with , that still affords a decent quality of life is different than this.

 

[Chaos Ranch]

Once again, this is being misconstrued, or maybe I wasnt clear enough. This isnt about an illness that can be dealt with, this is about a fully life altering illness with no chance of treatment.

Retinitis Pigmentosa ("RP") is an illness that cannot be treated nor cured. The only way it can be dealt with is to sit back and watch the lights fade.

It alters their lives. My sons will never be able to drive around or "cruise" at night with their friends because it causes total night blindness. No taking their family anywhere after dark unless their wife drives. No night hunting. Movies, dark places to dine, dark homes,.... it's very embarrasing to crash into things all the time. To try to talk to someone when you cannot see their face. Loads of things in your life change when you cannot see. Take my dad for instance. He has never seen the face of my children. He cannot see the smile on his wife's face. He cannot work and support his family.

Can't play ball, or sports because no high impact possibilities.... could cause retinal detatchment. You cannot go many places because you cannot see. You become helpless to the disease, and it just slowly robs you of your visual world.

Slowly chronologically, but in emotionally, it happens way too fast.

I may never see my first grand-child. I may not see my youngest daughter graduate high school. I may live to become nothing more than a burdon to my husband. That alters many lives.

I do, however, to be honest and fair... understand about the terrible afflictions. Say a person who is HIV posiitive. I do not believe they should have babies... but I do belive... that it is not my choice to say whether they can or cannot, nor is flattering to my attitude to downgrade them or belittle them because they choose to do so. That little life would be as precious, and as important, and as love-able and love worthy... as any other life. A sad and tragic end ... yes.... but a true and honest love and a bond that is unforgettable that absence of life cannot take away.... I still wouldn't trade it for anything in the world and will never regret my choice to have my children.

 

[Miniv]

Edited to add that Robert Frost had a "disease" also that is heriditary. His family had a history of depression and nervous disorders, yet he had children. 6, a son who passed away and a miscarriage included. Robert Frost had trouble staying in school as a young boy because of his nervous disorder, his sister had to be commited because of hers, and his daughter was miserable in her marriage and divorced because of hers, daughter Irma was institutionalized because of her mental depressions, and his son, Carol commited suicide late in life because of his depression. Frost, after the death of his wife Elinor became very emotionally unstable as well. Also, his wife suffered great manic episodes of depression as well during her life. Though not what many consider a disease...depression can render it's afflicted as "disabled" as many other diseases.

Good grief, my dear. Don't take it too the extreme. We all have something wrong in our heritage somewhere. Although, I doubt that back in Robert Frost's day, they knew anything about what we know now of depression and nervous disorders.

We also have choices to make in this life. Some choices are selfish. But I don't call what that woman did as "child abuse". I also feel the husband in the initial post made a selfish choice as well....regardless that he didn't know the full circumstances. I'm not condemning -- those are just the choices they made and have to live with in this life. And I also believe (if you read my previous post) the CHILD made a choice to come into that situation! That child's Spirit made the ultimate choice because he/she could have decided NOT to be born. Yes, it's hard to understand but we all make decisions we have to live with and learn from.

My statement was made as if *I* was put in such a position, if you read my post. And no, nothing is ever Black and White. That's why people have these kinds of discussions.

In the end, the original situation that was described is tragic. The mother has an untreatable illness and brought forth a child with the same illness. And the father is no longer a part of their lives. Some day all three will know what life leason they were to learn from that. And who knows? Perhaps during THIS life they will offer something positive to others as well! (Like Robert Frost did). You just never know........

MA

PS: I was just thinking......Chaos -- My posts have all been made though a spiritual outlook and I didn't have a personal connection.

I'm sorry you took anything I posted personally because of your own life situation. I understand that every life is different -- with so many ins and outs and details and decisions. Somehow I believe your own life is very different from what the original poster described and I also believe that if your children were ever asked if they would give anything up with the life you have provided them -- they would say "absolutely NOT"....... I do not think you should try to compare. There would be TOO many differences. Like Apples and Oranges. They are both FRUIT, but that's about it.

 

[Chaos Ranch]

In the end, the original situation that was described is tragic. The mother has an untreatable illness and brought forth a child with the same illness. And the father is no longer a part of their lives. Some day all three will know what life leason they were to learn from that. And who knows? Perhaps during THIS life they will offer something positive to others as well! (Like Robert Frost did).

Very well said... I agree.

I find Robert Frost very interesting, and his writing to be very thought provoking... I didn't mean to take him to extreemes... just shared a bit of background on him to sort of point out that even one of the greatest intellectual minds known to man (in my opinion) has a defeciency... yet he triumphed and has had a profound effect, and continues to have a profound effect on the world through his writings and recorded lectures.

I find it very interesting that a great number of what are considered profound or highly noteworthy inventors, musicians, artists of all variances, and authors .... are people who have a disability or defect of some type... but that in no way reduced their influence... if anything, their reduction in one area amplified their ability in other areas... and I, myself would be greatly disappointed if their families had decided that there might be a chance they could be less than perfect, or affected/afflicted with something less than perfect health and decided not to have them at all.

It's a very hard decision for one to make,... and a person living with or faced with the possibility should learn all they can about what they are living with, and that person should make the choice on their own to have children or not have children.

I do see a big mistake on her part by not letting her husband be fully informed of the situation so HE could make the choice as well. The choice is hers, AND his. She choses to, he should have had the choice NOT to as well. Leaving may not have been my choice or my plan of action if I were him... but he never had a chance to be fully informed, and fully prepared for what he was faced with.

I do not believe at all that it is child abuse. I believe it was not fair to not inform the husband... I do, however, consider it to be neglectful if she chooses to not inform the child of everything she knows about the disease so that the child can be fully aware of it. (if that's possible in this case... I'm not sure of the details.)

If someone has a disability, or an inability, or an illness, or something that would complicate the life of someone else... they should fully inform the people it will/could affect... and they should fully inform themselves. (in my opinion)

PS: I was just thinking......Chaos -- My posts have all been made though a spiritual outlook and I didn't have a personal connection. I'm sorry you took anything I posted personally because of your own life situation. I understand that every life is different -- with so many ins and outs and details and decisions. Somehow I believe your own life is very different from what the original poster described and I also believe that if your children were ever asked if they would give anything up with the life you have provided them -- they would say "absolutely NOT"....... I do not think you should try to compare. There would be TOO many differences. Like Apples and Oranges. They are both FRUIT, but that's about it.

: You are right ... there are many differences in the situations... I was just trying to give my opinion as someone with first hand experience of a hereditary disease that causes you to be unable to use an integral part of your body... and as an afflicted woman who chose to have children with the possibility of passing it on to them.

I am also a mother who gives that choice to my children by fully informing them of what they are at risk for, and the likely-hood of passing it on to their children so that THEY in turn can make their own choice as to have children or not. (I also fully informed their father before we had children.) I have informed my boys (not instructed, but informed) then that if they choose to they can have a specialist help them conceive male children, because their male children will only have a 50% chance of getting the disease.... they can go a step further and have the DNA examined to check for the RP factor on the "X" gene it travels on in our family....or ... they can let God decide and not try to interfere with His plans.

I'm not at all offended, upset, bothered, or anything. I sure don't want anyone to think I am.... I was just trying to voice my own ideas on the subject and wanted to build on the conversations because I find it very interesting.

 

[Miniv]

Kim (Chaos),

I completely agree with your above post. An absolute DITTO.....and very well put.

MA

 

[stormo41]

i think it is wrong. If she wanted a child she could have adopted a child who is already alive and needs a home.

as for myself I know i am not having childeren of my own, although i am able to have them if i wanted to. I know i will probaly get "flamed" for saying this but i strongly believe that every child in the world should have a home before anyone else has any more kids. and yes i do know how hard adoption is and how much it costs.

 

[Chaos Ranch]

MA... I just read your signature....

** "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. Protect the rights of all who are helpless."Proverbs 31:8 **

:aktion033: :aktion033:

:

To be un-informed is to be un-armed... to be un-armed is to be defence-less (or helpless)....

There is an un-limited amount of information out there for any of us who find a weakness in our life or the life of one we love... whether it is physical, mental, or financial.... a weakness looses effect with knowledge. One does not feel so help-less to fight the monster against them when they can see the monster in it's entirety and know it's every fault and strength.

If she had informed her husband... he could have been prepared for the battle that a child with the affliction could be faced with, and he could have armed himself properly and been prepared to fight, instead of being thrust in the face of a monster that just looked too big and scarey for him to beat... a monster who's victory came at the expense of the life of his child.

 

[wade3504]

There was a chance this child wouldn't end up this way either. It could have been perfectly fine. As was stated it is one of the worst cases seen. I do not believe it's child abuse as she did not have this child in hopes that it would get this disease.

As for some people should breed, others shouldn't at all, and you should only have one there is no one to decide that but God. What if, for those who think that, that your parents thought that before you were born? As far as having only one child I and my other brother and sister wouldn't be born, but then again if my mother had decided to have me completely checked out before I was born and wanted a perfect child I wouldn't be here today.

I have worked with mentally and physically handicapped children. They do have lives, they do bond, they show love. Some of them have passed on but what they bring into this world is incredible in its own way even if they have a disease and cannot physically or mentally communicate like we do it does not mean they shoulc not be here.

People are put on this earth for a reason no matter how many there are.

Amanda