Tobianos With Paw Prints

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ohmt

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On another thread someone was asking about paw prints on a horse they had. I got to thinking and I did a little research and realized that I have yet to see a horse with paw prints that does not have sabino. So just out of curiosity, will those of you with tobianos that have paw prints please post pictures? I'd like to see if I can find one that possibly does not have sabino. I have heard many times that the paw prints are a sign that a horse is homozygous for tobiano, but I have my fair share of those with paw prints that are and those that aren't, so I'd like to find a horse with the paw prints that has no signs of sabino to see if that theory could be true.

Thanks everyone!
 
I'm sure this horse doesn't fit the description but he does have some ink spots on him. I call him a dun tovero. He has spots on his side there a little bit on the other side, spots down near his hooves and on his face. I never did test him when he was a stud but he threw a solid foal and another that was sabino/tobaino out of a sabino/tobiano mare that also had ink spots and she never threw that much color with her 2nd foal.

I've heard of these horses being homozyogous but I also don't find that to be the case. Personally these sabino horses can really throw the color.

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Diane-here is a good description of 'paw prints' that I copied from www.stallingspainthorses.com

These unique and distinctive markings are usually located in the 'white' hair areas on a tobiano and are small dabs of spots or color (1-3 inches) surrounded with prominent "blue zones" (white hairs on black pigmented skin that give the hair a blue appearance) surrounding the 'spot'. Usually there will be groups of prints that look like dog or cat tracks.
Now I have been looking at my computer for the past few hours and my eyes are burning, but from what I can see it looks like all three of your horses probably have sabino as well as I think I see some feathering/unevenness around the spots. I might change my mind when I've had a few hours rest though
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What makes them sabino also ?

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Tobiano is noted for smooth lines between the colored area and the white area. Sabino has rough, jagged lines and sharp points. Sabino USUALLY puts some white on the face also, but not always. I have a couple that clearly carry Sabino who do not have face white. There are many different genes classed generically as Sabino. The only one that can be tested for is SB1. Visual markings may range from a faint scattering of white hairs throughout the body, similar to Roan, but affecting the head and legs equally to the body, white socks, blaze face, all the way to a Max White with almost no color at all.

Your horses clearly show jagged lines and sharp points where the color meets the white. VERY pretty. I think it is very difficult to find a Tobiano that does not also have some form of Sabino.
 
This is interesting. I'm still confused about tobiano and sabino.

I have 4 pinto girls. I was told my hard keeper was tobiano. All of her marks have clearly defined edges. She has white on her face. There are no "spots" or "paw prints" anywhere on her. Both eyes are brown.

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Baby, has a white strip/snip on her face but she has a couple "paw print" spots and there are "blended areas" where the sorrel and white meet on her sides. Her left eye is blue. ETA: She definitely has that "blue" look to a couple of her paw prings. You can just see the one that is just above where her neck and shoulders meet.

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More in the next post...
 
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Ethel has no "paw prints" and her markings also have very distinct edges with no "blending" like Baby does. Both her eyes are blue.

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I don't have good pics of Lucy but she has white on her face, left eye is blue and she also has a couple of "paw prints" that weren't obvious in these photos where she's still got her winter woolies. I love how her face/head is black and there's a patch of black that goes around her tail and under her "bottom" and everything in between is white.

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Everyone has blended tails.

So is my hard keeper a tobiano? And are the other three sabino?
 
I've got an interesting one here .. I am assuming these are paw prints both her parents are black tobiano
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It is hard to see but she has a bunch on her legs too
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Here's my (now 23 yr old) gelding. He has paw prints on both sides.
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Wingnut-all of your girls appear to be tobiano as well as sabino. They all have the uneven edges (like someone drew the lines with a marker and the marker bled just a little bit) which indicates sabino and then if a tobiano has facial white you know there is another pattern going on there.

Devon-I think those are paw prints-she definitely has sabino as well. She is just gorgeous by the way!
 
This is interesting. I'm still confused about tobiano and sabino.

....

So is my hard keeper a tobiano? And are the other three sabino?
I think most people's difficulty in understanding Pinto genetics is that they get the idea that they must be one pattern or the other. NOT true. They can have all the patterns combined together.

ALL of your horses pictured are Tobianos. BUT, like most all Pintos, they also carry other genes. The first one you referred to as your hard keeper appears to be Tobiano + Sabino. Baby appears to be Tobiano + Sabino + Splash. Ethel and Lucy are definitely Tobiano + Splash + likely Sabino.

Keep in mind that there is not yet a test for Splash or for many of the Sabino genes.
 
Here are some of mine to check out.LOL If you want more I can come up with more paw printed
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mares.
 
Thanks Nancy! Your girls all look to have sabino (hard to tell on the one mostly white though) as well. Any of yours that might be without the sabino?

P.s.-Love the white 'mask' on the first!
 
All still have sabino, but that seems to be the best way to get those loud pintos! Thank you very much for sharing. Your horses are all lovely
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this is the only one of my pintos that has paw prints , I think she has tobiano , sabino ( halos ,jagged edges ,and some areas of roaning) and maybe splash ( bottom heavy blaze) too her sire is tobi+ splash and her dam is tobi + sabino , so it is at least possible for her to be homozygous

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I think we must remember a few things connected with colour. First of all, I suspect that very few horses of colour, only are that which we see. Most no doubt carry many other patterns and some of which there is no test for yet. The phenotype seldom tells the real story. We must remember also, that different registries often name a colour or pattern differently. Also different countries.

Small spots on tobianos are sometimes and indicator of homozygosity and sometimes not. Many horses without small pawprint spots, are homozygous. Purists will say that a true tobiano, must have an all black face and absolutely smooth edged markings, but most horses we would class as tobianos, don't.

Many patterns which have been formerly classed as sabino, are not now thought not to be. Current thinking is that many supposed sabino patterns/colouring, is actually splash. At the moment, we can only test for Sabino1. There are a ton of other sabino patterns out there which have been detected, but for which no testing is offered. Testing is not offered, since the cost would be prohibitive for an owner to test for all.

For sabino, on the typical "normal" horse markings, white stays on the nose bridge of the face, causes lip spots, when in combination with other patterns, it likes to keep color on the eyes, causes socks, stockings and can cause belly spots, also causes minor body roaning and and the leg markings generally follow the inside of the leg, but can be jagged or pointy, does not cause blue eyes.

Splash causes very crisp clean sharp markings, white that falls off the side of the face and bottom heavy white face markings. Splash also causes bald faces, leg markings are fairly flat topped and can cause belly spots or bands of white. Splash also causes blue eyes. Also causes colour to have 'halos' around it. Splash also causes some horses to have dark 'smiley' markings on the lips. Looks like this horse of JMS Miniatures has this, although difficult to tell from the pic.

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As time goes on and we can test for the patterns not offered now, some of the above thinking might change. Ideas and findings do change often. But what fun colour is.

The best idea, is to always test for colour one thinks might be in the horses they breed. Phenotypes hardly ever tell the story and one can never go by the colour on registration papers. In breeds which carry frame, then that opens up another huge can of worms and something which breeders must consider carefully when breeding. Even when breeding solid appearing horses. Frame brings pretty patterns, but also harbours a dirty little secret.

Lizzie
 
All still have sabino, but that seems to be the best way to get those loud pintos! Thank you very much for sharing. Your horses are all lovely
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Wow I didn't realize how many I had with sabino. I too have had horses with lots of paw prints that tested not to be homozygous for tobiano.

I do have pretty good luck getting those loud pintos with the mares I have and my homozygous stallion Ritz, of course they are always pinto but, he also seem to produce a lot of loud colors.

Thanks for looking at my horses, sorry they were not the pattern you were looking for. I guess all of mine have sabino, as most of mine look like the ones I shared here.
 
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It was exactly what I was looking for, thank you Nancy! I just wanted to see any horse with pawprints to see if maybe I could find one that might not have sabino in there as well. I will keep searching though!
 

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