Tongue over the bit

[ShadyGrovePonies]

I have a shetland that I have had in training since October. A professional trainer comes here three times a week to work with him. We had trouble finding a bit that the pony liked and have finally settled on a glory butterfly bit. He has gotten much more quiet with his mouth using the butterfly bit, but he is still getting his tongue over the bit. He especially will do this when more contact is used. We are debating what to do about it and wondered if any of you have had this trouble and what you do about it? We do not use an overcheck. He is not being trained for breed shows.

 

[RhineStone]

If you have done all the work as far as fitting and trying other bits, it could come down to it being a habit, ESPECIALLY if you are stopping work and fixing his tongue. The horse learns really fast that "I don't have to work if I put my tongue over." He is "training" you. It may sound "cruel", but unless the horse is having a total hissy fit that might cause a wreck, don't let him stop. Be careful with his mouth if you suppect that the tongue is over, but don't fix it. You don't need to ask for a whole lot, like lots of turns, etc., but just do an average working trot while his tongue is over. If he can get it over, he more than likely can get it back and he will decide that it is much more comfortable with it under than over with the pressure on his bars.

Horses can use all kinds of "tricks" to get us to release the pressure. One of the hardest problems to fix is horses that go behind the bit and won't take contact. What do most people do when the horse goes behind the bit? Release! You have just "rewarded" the horse for doing that! We were talking with a very experienced driver, trainer, judge and she said that you have to "bump" those horses when they go behind, so that it becomes uncomfortable for them to do that. Make the right answer comfortable, and the wrong one not comfortable. My husband tried this on a friend's mini, and whalla, the mare took up contact!

If your pony has a fat tongue and lips, he also may not like the snaffle setting and you could gently try the curb. I have two horses that are really not happy with any direct rein pull, and would rather have a mild curb anyday. Also, make sure the bit is wide enough and not bumping the sides of his face. Minis' and ponies' faces can sometimes widen quickly above the lips, and even though the mouthpiece may fit, the purchase (part above the mouthpiece) may bump their face, especially with thick bridle leather running through the rings.

Myrna

 

[ShadyGrovePonies]

No, we don't stop work when he gets his tongue over the bit. We push him forward and let him figure it out. His butterfly bit is a mullen mouth - not a snaffle. Yes, he does tend to get behind the bit when he is fussing with the bit and we do snap him and get him moving out. We are hoping he will stop doing this as he gets more comfortable with his job.

We have thought of wrapping the bit with latex. Also, thought of trying to find the rubber bit holders that they use on standardbred race horses that go over the nose?

 

[RhineStone]

His butterfly bit is a mullen mouth - not a snaffle.

A Butterfly cheek has a snaffle setting (top ring) and a curb setting (bottom ring). Snaffle actually refers to the "location" the rein is attached, not the mouthpiece. It is a common misconception, with a lot of people referring to "snaffle" as a single jointed mouthpiece. You can have a mullen mouth snaffle or a mullen mouth curb with leverage. You can also have a single jointed curb as well (although I don't recommend that bit for any horse...

)

So what I am saying is that you can try to put the rein in the curb (or lower) ring on the Butterfly. Just be careful doing it if the horse is really light mouthed.

Yes, he does tend to get behind the bit when he is fussing with the bit and we do snap him and get him moving out. We are hoping he will stop doing this as he gets more comfortable with his job.

I would think so. You may also want to try to "change it up" to give him something else to think about besides the bit, especially before he gets his tongue over. Show him some obstacles, set out some cones to drive around, get a thick piece of plywood or an old rug to drive over. If they are bored, they are more likely to fuss when they are learning to carry the bit. And the steering will get him used to the bit in the meantime. Just make the obstacles wide and flowing.

Latex can work for some horses, but with small horses, you have to make sure the mouthpiece doesn't get too thick.

He needs to learn to carry the bit on his own. I am not a big fan of "contraptions" to keep the horse from doing something. What happens once you take it off if they haven't learned to hold the bit? You are back to square one.

Myrna

 

[ShadyGrovePonies]

A Butterfly cheek has a snaffle setting (top ring) and a curb setting (bottom ring). Snaffle actually refers to the "location" the rein is attached, not the mouthpiece. It is a common misconception, with a lot of people referring to "snaffle" as a single jointed mouthpiece. You can have a mullen mouth snaffle or a mullen mouth curb with leverage. You can also have a single jointed curb as well (although I don't recommend that bit for any horse...

)

So what I am saying is that you can try to put the rein in the curb (or lower) ring on the Butterfly. Just be careful doing it if the horse is really light mouthed.

I would think so. You may also want to try to "change it up" to give him something else to think about besides the bit, especially before he gets his tongue over. Show him some obstacles, set out some cones to drive around, get a thick piece of plywood or an old rug to drive over. If they are bored, they are more likely to fuss when they are learning to carry the bit. And the steering will get him used to the bit in the meantime. Just make the obstacles wide and flowing.

Latex can work for some horses, but with small horses, you have to make sure the mouthpiece doesn't get too thick.

He needs to learn to carry the bit on his own. I am not a big fan of "contraptions" to keep the horse from doing something. What happens once you take it off if they haven't learned to hold the bit? You are back to square one.

Myrna

Oh! Ok - I got it. I wasn't thinking of the rings on the bit! I always think of a snaffle as a jointed mouthpiece. Maybe we should give that a try today.

You are right, he may be getting bored and needs more to think about. We have moved from the training area to the more open field. I will get some obstacles out there to change it up a bit.

Thanks so much for your input!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I'm no where near as experienced as Myrna on the subject of training a driving horse but a couple of things come to mind;

A)has he had his teeth checked? Does he perhaps have wolf teeth or sharp edges that are making him look for a more comfortable way to carry the bit? Sometimes changes in the mouth can happen over a very short time even tho we think we have the dental care dealt with. It would be worth having a look IMO

B) have you tried bitting him up and just lunging him (I prefer free lunging for this step) while he learns how to pack the bit? This will allow him to learn what works for him without any 'interference' caused by rein handling. Once he can carry the bit quietly while lunging you could put side reins on and begin to accustom him to rein tension.

I agree with Myrna,don't use any device to tie his mouth closed over the bit. Using anything at this point to force him is likely to create other issues that will be harder to deal with. Give him time to learn even if it seems to take much longer than you had expected, he will be a better driving horse in the end if you do.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Yes for sure if a dentist hasn't seen this horse that should be your first step.

When a horse plays with the bit in his mouth it is usually to relieve pressure or an uncomfortable feeling. With a green horse they will play with pretty much ANY bit you put in their mouth and you need to give them a bit of time to see if they will settle into it and stop playing around. If they are obviously uncomfortable then go ahead and switch it up right away but otherwise if they are just mouthing and chewing it leave them with it for a bit and see if they don't settle down. Getting their tongue over it quite often means they are trying to relieve pressure on their tongue. A ported bit in this instance can work wonders as long as their is room in their mouth for a port (their palate isn't too shallow) Start off with a low port and see if that doesn't help. Butterfly really only refers to the cheeks of the bit or the method of fashioning the cheek pieces of the bridle to the bit - a butterfly bit has the option of being a mild curb or a snaffle - and wouldn't really make all that much difference in tongue play as that is caused by the actual mouthpiece. A mullen, being a mildly curved mouth, probably gave him a slight bit of tongue relief hence a mild improvement in his behaviour. If you haven't already tried raising the bit in his mouth - try that. Some horses like the bit to lay higher than others and he won't be able to get his tongue over it as easily. That will let you know if he is objecting to the mouthpiece laying on his tongue or he has just discovered a new game. If he gaps his mouth and objects strenuously try a low port.

DON'T do anything drastic like tying his mouth closed or his tongue to the side until you have ruled out everything except the new game concept. You cannot tie their mouth or their tongue in competition but can use that method to teach them not to play games but I STRESS ONLY AS A LAST RESORT once you have ruled everything else out.

Stallions tend to be the ones that enjoy playing games with their bits although I have had the odd mare that did so as well. It can take a stallion as much a 2 years to accept any bit and close their mouth over it comfortably if they are the game playing type.

 

[ShadyGrovePonies]

Yes, he had his teeth floated prior to starting his training in October. He was started very slowly with the bit - first just carrying the bit and ground driving with the reins to halter. Then, we would switch to the bit for the last 10 - 15 minutes of his lesson. He does seem to like the mullen mouth/butterfly bit, so we will stick to that.

 

[keely2682]

i often use a french link bit on horses that get their tongue over the bit

(i like the half cheek ones carried by miniexpress best)

it sometimes fixes the problems

i have a few other suggestions that might work -

an overcheck connected to the driving bit, not an overcheck bit, will distribute some of the rein pressure accross the nose

i'm not a fan of overchecks but sometimes they help tongue over bit horses

tighten the sides of the bridle to hold the bit higher in the mouth and thus harder to put a tongue over it

it might fix a minor problem but doubt it would help a chronic problem

let the horse eat in a bridle

a leadline bridle with no caveson or blinders and no reins

the horse will quickly figure out how to get his tongue over and then back under the bit

some old trainers i know leave horses in bridles, or tie bits to halters, for days

i'm not sure i approve of this but the old timers swear it works

i try to break horses with a curb strap or chain over their nose

(like the sidepull i used to break big horses)

i attach it to the bit ring on either side and run it over the nose

this serves 2 purposes-

1. it keeps the bit higher in their mouth towards the roof so it is harder to put their tongue over it

2. the strap distributes the pressure across their nose in addition to through their mouths

i start with the strap quite tight and loosen it as they get used to working off the bit over the course of a month or two

it gets them used to the pressure from the bit gradually while not slowing the rest of your training in the meantime

this has worked on even the most difficult to bit horses especially while bitting up and ground driving

i also use it with a parelli lunging aid on my broke horses to keep some of the pressure off their mouths

also-

big horse catalogs have big horse rubber bit ports to prevent togues from getting over the bit

you might buy one and cut it down to fit

i know big horses these have worked on

 

[ShadyGrovePonies]

Thanks! We seemed to have worked out the tongue problem. He has been very quiet with his mouth the last three lessons, working very nicely and responding well. He is really coming along well.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

 

[RhineStone]

So what worked? What did you try?

 

[ShadyGrovePonies]

We have just been very consistant in pushing him forward and letting him figure it out. I guess he decided it was easier to stop fussing with the bit. He has done very well and we have figured out that everything we have done with him, the best solution is patience.