tongue over the bit

[Marsha Cassada]

My new horse is officially beginning harness training. His mouth is rather short, so it is easy for him to get his tongue over the bit. I'm planning to use a flash band on him for a while, so he doesn't form a bad habit.

He has his tongue over the bit before I even get the headstall straps all buckled, so it isn't a question of just keeping his mind busy while ground driving. I'm hoping he will only need the flash band for a little while.

Winter hair complicates things a little! I think I will try to keep his head tidied up a little.

I would be interested what other drivers do about the tongue over the bit.

 

[paintponylvr]

I haven't really had this issue with the driving ponies by the time we were ready to hitch. I did with a small riding pony that seemed to insist on getting her tongue over the bit - didn't matter what type of "tie" you did around the muzzle.

I used two different ways. 1 - was to take a regular western curbstrap (we used a nylon w/ chain - what we had on hand) and hooked it from snaffle ring to snaffle ring over the bridge of her nose. It was actually tightened all the way up on the holes in the curbstrap but we didn't add any. It held the bit up - it wasn't as effective as it could/should have been but it did work. She couldn't get her tongue over the bit that way. She couldn't be shown that way though...

I have some pics, but right now, the connection here in the hotel isn't allowing me to access them and post them here... I will try again tomorrow morning or later tonight...

2 - we did a "western trick" of tying a small string at the center of the bit where the "snaffle" is so that the two ends can be brought out of the mouth on either side.
Then it's taken up over the bridge of the nose and tied in a knot in the center and the two ends are then run straight up to the brow band, split then to the crown where it is tied off. It works similarly to the other way - but the center of the bit is kept up rather then the rings. I don't have any pics of this arrangement.

I have had youngsters that seem to insist on putting their tongues over the bit while ground driving. It seemed to be a "youngster thing" as by the time we were ready to hitch they'd stopped doing it. But we would just quickly get ther tongues back under the bit - usually several times in one workout at first; then less until finally we get thru a whole workout w/o them getting their tongues over the bit...

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I took him out today with the flash. It's hard to get it all adjusted before he gets the tongue over. I had to stop 3 times on our ground drive and redo. I am glad to hear it will end. I was exhausted by the time we got home! I made all the holes larger when I got home so it won't take so long to get the noseband buckled from now on. If I can get that on, I have time to tie the shoestring.

He is so furry the overcheck doesn't fit well; I'm reluctant to use it. But would it help? I tried it on him once, and it did seem as though it lifts the bit a little.

I have no one nearby to help with this.

I have to laugh at him while I'm working to get everything back on. He's such a character.

He's doing much better giving to pressure; I think he's starting to figure it out. Hopefully the tongue/bit will come pretty soon too!

 

[Kendra]

Is he super new to bitting? It's be inclined to let him carry the bit doing other things (go for a walk, work on showmanship or obstacles) and let him work it out. It's normal for him to mouth the bit at first, and that might include flipping it under his tongue and back again.

If he still seems determined to get his tongue over once he's more used to carrying the bit, then I'd try either a twine from the rings, over the noseband (similar to what Paula described) to lift the bit in his mouth, or a flash as you're already planning. But I think it'd give him a chance to try and figure it out on his own, without trying to ground drive him or add any other complications.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I agree with Kendra. Give him time and let him learn how to pack his bit. He is putting his tongue over the bit because it is a new sensation to have it in his mouth and he is trying to find a comfortable way to carry it around since he can not spit it out.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I agree with Kendra. Give him time and let him learn how to pack his bit. He is putting his tongue over the bit because it is a new sensation to have it in his mouth and he is trying to find a comfortable way to carry it around since he can not spit it out.

Well, I'm not so sure. I've been bridling him for about 5 weeks, letting him wear it awhile, even doing a little ground driving. The tongue over the bit just started. I do not want him to get into the habit of this. I can tell right away when it happens, as he puts his head down and is less responsive to rein cues. He is very smart.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I know it seems after 5 weeks he might have it worked out and you know your own horse best, but my experience has been that some of them start with the tongue over the bit only after they have enough confidence to begin to actually try different things. I have a gelding here (my problem child lol, he put me thru all sorts of new things) who was at the point of being ready to hitch when he suddenly started to slip the tongue over the bit. I know it was an evasion on his part but instead of forcing the issue i made my rein cues BIG for a time and did lots of bumping (tug release, tug release) to get his attention on turns. I also had him stand tied with the bridle on with out reins or harness at the end of a work session. One other thing that I have found helps is to use surgical tubing as side reins and lunge the horse. I use an open bridle and free lunge (because I have access to a round pen) and let them work thro where the bit should be on their own. I put just enough pressure on the side reins to have contact but no more and because the reins are surgical tubing they give if the horse pulls so I don't need to worry that they will hurt themselves if it is a hard lesson not to carry the bit under the tongue.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I saw an article on The Horse.com about stretchable material on reins. It was not recommended, as it does not release pressure quickly enough to be a reward. I do not think the application you are talking about is the same thing at all, but I am not sure I have enough focus and experience to try to experiment with it. If I had someone, like yourself!, nearby who could work with him like that it would be a good thing. Unfortunately, I am on my own here.

I do not have a round pen; my ground driving is out and about. We have traffic passing, go up and down ditches, around fencing, anything I can find that makes us maneuver. I have tried keeping his mind busy with cues, half-halts, and other things I've learned about on here. Part of the problem is his short mouth--I cannot keep the bit far enough back in his mouth without shortening the headstall too much.

btw, I waited till he had his teeth done to introduce the bit. He was good to go in that area. We also had a chiro appt two weeks ago. He is not shaking his head any more, and is much more supple on the right side now. He had tmj, his poll was out, and right shoulder and left hip were out. Actually, the tongue-thing may have started after the chiro appt. Maybe he is feeling more flexible now??

It's so good to be able to discuss this training problem here! Thank you to everyone offering constructive advice.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

From your past posts that I have read I think you have good instincts. It is (IMO) always best not to get to locked into any one way of doing things. You can only work with what you have (no round pen - I've been there and altho nice it isn't an absolute need- you do what you can with out) If after a time you aren't seeing improvements with the techniques you are using to lead your horse to understanding then there is always another way to try. Asking on a forum can give you loads of different ideas to help you stay flexible as a trainer. There is a chance that having the work done means his focus has changed. He may have had himself locked up tight (I picture his jaw clenched) trying to guard against actual or expected discomfort and now that he can think about other things has decided to mess about trying to find a better (by his reckoning) place to put that dang bit.

Good luck. My best advice is to try to remember that even when the horse is finding ways to actively evade your requests it is nothing personal. Either they don't understand what you are asking or they misunderstand your intent and they are doing their best to look after themselves until they can believe that you will look after them.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My best advice is to try to remember that even when the horse is finding ways to actively evade your requests it is nothing personal. Either they don't understand what you are asking or they misunderstand your intent and they are doing their best to look after themselves until they can believe that you will look after them.

He doesn't have a mean or vindictive bone in his body. He's just been running with his herd for 4 years and hasn't figured out that life has changed for him.

Have not tried again for a few days. We had a significant weather change, and after his colic episode I'm paranoid about any stress during that time. As soon as weather settles down, I'll try him again.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

We finally got to go out again today. I didn't use the flash, but did tighten the nose band securely. He is much more responsive every time we go. He did bolt with me when a trailer went by, and also for a covey of quail that burst into flight by us. But then returned to a calm manner. On the way home I checked the bit and it was under his tongue. I fixed it, but when I got home it was under again.

I did some trotting with him, and that works much better to keep tension on the reins and keep his mind occupied, but I can't trot far! I haven't allowed him to trot before as I want him to learn to work calmly. I was very pleased with his easy trot. We worked on transitions and I believe this will do him the most good. We will do more trotting.

Anyway, I think I've decided take advice here and just let him work out the bit for a while and not get worked up about it.

I love it when noisy traffic goes by so he can become accustomed. The quail flying up was good, too.

 

[paintponylvr]

Like Reignmaker stated, you don't need a round pen.

However, if you would like to have the "support" of one - you can make one on the ground in a variety of ways for visual aid for you (as it wouldn't actually "contain" your horse). The simpliest would be lime or some type of powder - drawing a circle (mine would be lopsided!! ROFLMAO) on the ground. The best way to get the circle is to "make" a compass. Put a stake in the ground where you want the center of your "round pen", attach a string 1/2 the width of your finished "r-pen" and walk it around. If you want a 30' circle, you'd use a string 15' long. Haystring works well for this! I also use this trick to put the posts in the ground for my "r-pen". You can use a corner of a fence in your paddock or yard as 1 or 2 sides (so that section is "straight" - who cares?).

IF drawing it doesn't work, then again use your "string compass", and use bricks, weighted containers (coffee cans, laundry containers, little water bottles, 2 ltr bottles, ??) and put them out like posts in your circle. Or use boards, landscaping timbers - etc - you get the idea. Who said a round pen had to be permanent when it's a training aid? Unless you want to do free lounging or use it as a pen, there are lots of ways to use visual aids for an "arena" - even a simple stake in the ground w/ a paper plate attached as a marker (think dressage arena).

if you want more substantial, you can put up step in posts and use some type of rope. Or put up actual posts with rope. Or use the 16' panels like I've used and you can build either a temporary or a permanent r-pen using them. The smallest circle I would use would be 30' and go up from there.

********************

If you aren't comfortable with "stretchie" side reins, you could also do balancing side reins. For those you use a solid "line" and put it in the shape of a "v". You can use two separate lines - one on each side (for lounging circles, you will need to re-adjust them when you switch directions or have them just loose enough that they can bend - but understand that they won't be able to do a deep, rounded body bend) OR you could do one continuous line (clothesline or paracord works really well for this) doing your "v" at the top by running it thru the ring at the top of your surcingle or around the terret that the check attaches to (allowing the cord to move freely so that they can bend/turn). Then you can adjust how much tension you want on his head/mouth and he can have freedom to move his head up and down while learning to carry the bit and give/get soft. If you use a continuous line, he can bend as deep as you like provided the cord moves freely. All string - even hay string - has some stretch, so no worries there unless you make it short enough to crank his chin into his chest (don't think you'd do that) - this set up is pretty forgiving while working wonders!

I did experiment with making some balancing side reins and have used just simple hay string tied from the girth thru the bit to the surcingle again... I only have pics of this - lets see if the hotel connection will let me add pictures now?

 

[paintponylvr]

"Anyway, I think I've decided take advice here and just let him work out the bit for a while and not get worked up about it.

I love it when noisy traffic goes by so he can become accustomed. The quail flying up was good, too."

YAY!!

 

[Marsha Cassada]

We did not ground drive yesterday. Instead, we went for a walk. Afterwards, we played under a tarp. When I shook it out, he freaked. But then I asked him to walk over it and that was a piece of cake. So I got under it with him and pulled it over the top of us. He didn't much like that, but after a while we walked around under the tarp and he seemed to think it was rather cool. I got out and led him, with the tarp draped over him, and he did fine with that. So then I laid the sleigh bell strap over his back and THAT was scary. He wasn't happy with that noisy thing at all.

I'm hoping he will become less reactive over time; at least take time to think before bolting at something unexpected.

I think there is new philosophy about round pens; some trainers are not using them any more. I found this article very interesting:

http://www.lessismorehorse.com/Round%20Penning.htm

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Interesting article but in my mind trainers have been lunging horses for a very very long time and there is a reason for that. If all you want to do in a round pen is chase the horse around in circles then the author has a point but a great deal more than that can be accomplished in a round pen if it is used effectively. I use mine as I would a lunge line and it helps my horses learn balance, collection, verbal cues and much much more while I am never in a position where I might pull on the horses head as might happen on a line. I do not use it strictly as a form of exercise and often my horses do not break a sweat or breath heavily. In some cases a fresh horse will want to run and play and I will allow a bit of this before we start to work but in doing so I dis-associate myself from the activity, actively avoiding eye contact or physical cues that could encourage the horse to include me in his behaviour, sometimes that means removing myself entirely from the round pen until the horse has 'worked the kinks out'.

I love what you are doing with desensitizing your guy. I made the mistake some years and horses ago of introducing a strap of bells to a horse (who I thought of as well trained) by merely attaching them to her harness before we set out on a cross country drive. She was less than impressed and only her solid foundation before hand and the fact that we had spent many hours together driving allowed her to tolerate them with out creating more excitement than was healthy for either of us. From that I learned there is no such thing as introducing too many things and that even well trained horses may need to be desensitized to something new.

 

[paintponylvr]

reignmaker's post - LIKE< LIKE> LIKE!!

**Edited to add** - You were able to put into words a lot of what I was trying to impart and in a very understandable, shorter paragraph.

Also - I have often gotten more "training" and "learning" while using the visual aids laid out on the ground and an actual lounge line. While laid out on the ground, the horse soon learns the boundary of the "ring" and will then learn to work w/I that w/o pulling on the line - giving a similar effect to working one loose in an actual round pen. Because I learned lounging at a young age, and learned to use it as a form of both conditioning and learning, I am able to get more from that than working with the horse loose in a round pen.

I also try to avoid the term "round penning" - because it does mean to me (and quite a few others) just "chasing the horse in a circle". While trying to understand how to properly use some of the NH round penning techniques (read the horse differently then I already understood how to do), I have actually injured several horses/ponies. Why? Because I was trying to use the type of training w/o understanding how to read/understand what the horse was telling me or the premise behind the techniques. Whereas the trainers I grew up learning "under" and later "from" (to me there is a VAST difference when understanding suddenly blossoms), I was taught what we were looking for right from the beginning and shown BEFORE I was "allowed" to use that particular training technique on my own horse(s). That sounds terrible - but in reality it wasn't. Since I was a child when I was first learning to ride and about horses, I was always supervised anyway - so it was no different and it wasn't anything I rebelled against at that time.

As I got older, and as we moved around and didn't always have direct, constant access to instructors/trainers - I started reading/researching. I rode predominantly western at the time BUT had been started in classical dressage type riding for more advanced lessons SO my reading/research covered a WIDE variety of training types/techniques. In fact, many of the first texts I read in the 70s were pre-ludes to the boom of NH trainers!! We did get the Western Horseman, Horseman & Horse of Course magazines, but I was at barns that also had Eqqus, Horse Illustrated, Horse & Hound etc, etc and also had the benefit of seeing a wide variety of trainers brought in for lessons (both private and group) and clinics. For a while, when we didn't have horses, we attended horse shows and I "audited" many, many lessons (I ate up watching others do what we couldn't do at the time). My mom also believed in different learning styles and she found magazines/books for me that included SOME different beliefs. Now, since I was on my own, I learned thru "trial and error" - the same as many others.

You know, a lot of people today downgrade "cowboys" and the cowboy style of riding - but what many "newbies" to horses of any kind don't realize is that many of the original cowboys were often well schooled folks (both men and women) who could/did ride English and jump a wide variety of obstacles or performed in the dressage rings who could also train both horses/people that moved west to do "more" or to breed the type of horse that could do things. They raised cattle and learned cow horse stuff as a means to support themselves, families and their breeding programs. The top western riders today often have a "background" in all types of riding - because they are students of the horse and because their own mentors were mentors of mentors who started in a classical background. But then again, there are others that don't have that background.

In some ways, the specialization that has happened in all breeds is a bad thing in my opinion. Over the years, that seems to have created the animosity and strife between different disciplines and styles of riding as well as training. Once upon a time, good trainers incorporated many varieties of styles and if they couldn't accomplish what they were trying to do, they often went to other disciplines to get help. If you read the fine print in many of the larger NH type trainers - they will tell you that their techniques do not work on every horse or for every person and that if one thing DOES NOT WORK, you try others until you FIND WHAT DOES.

Personally, that is the premise behind all horse training OR it should be.

Also, there were trainers that didn't want you to know their "tricks of the trade" - so they would come up with gimmicks that they would "show" at a show/event. There are a lot of stories out there of TRAINERS and PROFESSIONAL SHOWMEN who did many stunts that they actually trained at home for (or worked the horse with to become familiar w/ it even tho it may not have been a real training style they used). The person who saw it and took It home and copied it often have EPIC FAILURES... sometimes with accidents/injuries to themselves or their horses. Some of these stories are passed down only by "word of mouth" - in other words as stories being swapped at the bar or fireside. Others have actually been published - in single format in magazines and in actual books/biographies.

SORRY - as usual I have jumped up on a soap box and stolen a thread... thinking about deleting this or moving it to another thread all on it's own...

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I offered that link about the round pen for this very reason--to initiate discussion. Thanks to reignmaker and paintponyluvr for responding.

I am one of those folks who, I fear, cannot longe properly. So I elect not to, but rely on alternate methods for training. I am more into being out-and-about, using natural obstacles. This works for my area and my temperament. Though never a world class trainer, I hope to have a safe, sane driving partner.

I have used my corral for teaching a horse to come to me. The flight factor/or being driven from the herd can be utilized there, imo. It is a square, not a circle. Some trainers now suggest a square instead of a circle pen--gee, I got lucky there!

It's good to look at different ways of training, but sometimes all the information can be overwhelming.

 

[paintponylvr]

Marsha's post - LIKE< LIKE< LIKE!!

You are right on all counts...

I, too, have done a lot of the "out in the open" type training - both while riding and while driving. Personally - it too, has it's place in training!

I have had both great and bad experiences w/ corners - in pastures, stalls and pens/corrals. A horse getting "stuck" in the corner is a very real possibility as is using it to teach a horse to come to you. Again - it all goes to learning to read your horse and understanding that pretty much every time you work w/ your horse you are either training or "un"-training him.

And your horse knows the difference between coming out to visit/play and coming out to work with him... At least all of mine do!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

if one thing DOES NOT WORK, you try others until you FIND WHAT DOES.

Personally, that is the premise behind all horse training OR it should be.

Yes , I absolutely agree with these statements

SORRY - as usual I have jumped up on a soap box and stolen a thread... thinking about deleting this or moving it to another thread all on it's own...
Don't move it it is pertinent to the discussion and makes very good points IMO

Marsha, I think you have good instincts and your caution in using methods that you have no confidence in is sensible. It has been my experience that there are many roads that will lead us to our destination and I think yours is going to get you there just fine.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Finally able to go out again today. I left the nose band off and just used the headstall. We're going to try just working through the tongue-thing naturally for a while. I did remove the bit twice, as his tongue was totally over the bit, not just coming and going.

Much easier to keep tension on the reins while at the trot, but I can't trot behind him that far, so a lot of transitions. But he is so much better every time. A couple of startles today, but he didn't over react.

We went under the tarp again today. Ground drove over it. Windy, so it was flapping pretty good.

I'm using the french link. I wonder if a mullen would be less manipulative for his tongue? Do you think I should order one to try? Maybe the link is causing the problem.