Unexpected breeding : /

[Suebe]

Hi everyone I'm new to the board, happy to find it as I have a few questions & concerns and was hoping for input. Two of my mini mares escaped their pasture for the first time ever a few nights ago, they managed to knock off a wood panel. One is about 6 years old, 34 inches and the other is 32 inches and going to be 2 at the end of May. Well these girls walked all the way to the other side of our property where we keep a couple regular size geldings and our Haflinger Stallion, 14HH. I'm pretty sure they were teasing him because he ended up jumping a 5 foot fence to be with them without touching it! By the time I realized something was going on it had probably been a couple hours. Around 2am I heard the stallion neighing and something didn't sit right with me so I walked out to find them all grazing together. The fact that he was calm and just grazing tells me the excitement was over if you know what I mean, I plan on giving the horsey morning after pills/injections at 20 days post possible breeding?! Do you think he could have managed to breed to these shorter girls? Does that medication cause any dangerous side affects? Is it risky? I heard it causes sweating & cramping and I'm afraid it will make my younger one sick! Wondering if you thought it was ok to let the older mare have the baby if she's pregnant but for sure terminate the younger ones pregnancy if she is in fact pregnant???? Thanks in advance!!!

 

[lkblazin]

Wow!! I do not exactly see how that would have been too successful. There probably would have been some serious well back problems on the mares side. Very lucky they are not hurt.

No I would not let the older mare proceed with the pregnancy ( if she is indeed pregnant) the fetus would kill her. Call a vet right away to find out if they have ever come across this before. I may be completely wrong so hopefully someone else will respond. If in that case disregard my post. I hope you get this figured out.

 

[Suebe]

Wow!! I do not exactly see how that would have been too successful. There probably would have been some serious well back problems on the mares side. Very lucky they are not hurt.

No I would not let the older mare proceed with the pregnancy ( if she is indeed pregnant) the fetus would kill her. Call a vet right away to find out if they have ever come across this before. I may be completely wrong so hopefully someone else will respond. If in that case disregard my post. I hope you get this figured out.

Thank you! Appreciate your thoughts!!! Actually I called my vet immediately that morning! He's the one who explained he could give them basically the equivalent of a morning after pill except it's given at 20 days post breeding. He also said never in his 25 years as a vet has he seen a mini horse give birth to a baby too large just because of a breeding to a regular size horse, he said the body knows it's limits and the baby will not get bigger then the uterus will allow. The mares were completely unharmed and not distressed at all. I'm guessing he stood over them not on top of their back if it happened at all, that would make no sense since they're a decent amount tinier. They're rears and down there legs were suspicious of moisture but they were probably squirting and teasing him

 

[Suebe]

I guess I'm really hoping to hear what you all have to say about a possible pregnancy in the older mare, do you feel the stallion could have succeeded??? A for sure termination at 20 days post breeding for the younger one. Has anyone given this hormone that puts the mare back in to heat?! I hear it can cause side effects but my vet says he hasn't seen anything to awful ugh nervous because he says sweating and cramping but supposedly not colic type cramping?!!! Also has anyone had a mini mare give birth to foal from a large pony stallion???

 

[chandab]

Plenty of minis have had horrible dystocias due to an overly large foal.

 

[Suebe]

Here's a photo of the stallion standing next to our grey mini gelding and the buckskin in the back is the younger mare he might have bred to. The other mare is at least 2 inches bigger then the buckskin. This is purely for you to see the height difference, might help.

 

[Suebe]

Plenty of minis have had horrible dystocias due to an overly large foal.

My question is...are you sure that dystopias is always due to a foal being to large? My vet is conviced that there are many reasons for that to happen and isn't usually related to size?! Just a thought, thank you

 

[AnnaC]

It is not just the height difference between a mare and a suitable stallion but more about bone structure. The mare MIGHT be able to restrict the foal's size but a small 'heavily' built foal is certainly going to cause trouble at the birth with probably a fatal outcome. Sorry but there is no way that I would take the chance of a pregnancy under these circumstances. Go ahead with the termination injections - yes your girls will probably have a couple of uncomfortable days, but they will recover and you will have two happy healthy mares to breed in the future should you wish. Good luck!

 

[MyGoldenSunny]

Hi, and welcome!

Your horses are beautiful!! From the pic, it looks like your stud is short enought to breed them. I don't put anything past a stud! I have even heard of miniature studs breeding "big" mare as they are laying down. They find some way to get the job done. And as you said they were all calm.....like he did breed them. If he had not I'm sure he would have still been trying.

I would be worried for your little girls tho. I hope everything goes good for you and your girls!

I just got two new mini mare that before I got them the owner gave them an abortion shot last summer. Although I didnt see or know the mares at that time, they are fine now and I dont see any bad effects that may have occurred.

 

[lkblazin]

Interesting I never new they could restrict the size. I thought genetics would control that. Either way I do agree with chandab

 

[Suebe]

Thanks everyone I do see what you're saying and of course wouldn't want anything to happen! I have 6 minis all sizes never really measured them just guesses on height. Well today after hearing what everyone was saying I walked out and measured a few of them. The actual low down, which surprised me is...I measured the 6 year old mare at 39 inches! :O and my stallion closer to 13.3HH Btw my almost 2 year old mare was 36 inches. Knowing this and seeing my stallion is not big boned or big in anyway, does that change anyone's feelings on just the older mare going through with it, assuming "it" happened of course?! There's no question on the younger mare, she's getting the hormone injection to terminate. Thank you for making me feel more comfortable about the hormone injection as well! I was surprised that my tiniest boys were 30 inches haha! I really thought they were smaller

 

[Suebe]

Here's my stallion next to the 6 year old mare he might have bred with, she's the one behind the smaller gelding in the front. He is on down hill a tiny but really the height difference isn't that extreme for these two, do you agree at all?

 

[MyGoldenSunny]

So that means he is only 13" taller then her correct? If that is the case I would say he was very much able to breed her!

I would not say "extreme" difference in height, but not sure about the build. Is he full haflinger? Haflingers are in the draft family and that would be my concern. They are quite heavy built. And her being taller, but a smaller frame is worrisome. It has to do with both hight and build.

To me it would be how much you like your mare, and if it is worth the risk. A lot of minis have trouble even when bred to a smaller stallion, and I have known people who breed miniatures to welsh studs and they do fine. Personally I would never do that.

So really I think it's up to you and what you feel comfortable with : )

 

[Suebe]

So that means he is only 13" taller then her correct? If that is the case I would say he was very much able to breed her!

I would not say "extreme" difference in height, but not sure about the build. Is he full haflinger? Haflingers are in the draft family and that would be my concern. They are quite heavy built. And her being taller, but a smaller frame is worrisome. It has to do with both hight and build.

To me it would be how much you like your mare, and if it is worth the risk. A lot of minis have trouble even when bred to a smaller stallion, and I have known people who breed miniatures to welsh studs and they do fine. Personally I would never do that.

So really I think it's up to you and what you feel comfortable with : )

I love my minis! I love all my animals, my everyday life basically revolves around them

) yes he's a registered haflinger stallion but much more slight frame then our registered Haflinger mare we planned on breeding him to, she's very stocky and actually larger for her breed at 14.3 HH, then we were going to geld him as he's a wonderful boy to ride! I've met several of my stallions half brothers and they're all much more slight then the Belgium breeding of our Haflinger mare. The difference in height between the 6 year old mare & the stallion is about 15-16 inches.

 

[MyGoldenSunny]

Well he is beautiful!!! I once had two Haflingers, most amazing horses!!! Haflingers and miniatures are my two fave breeds. As of now I only have 4 minis, but I'm saving for a haflinger gypsy cross! Can't wait for that!

I hope all goes well with your girls, whatever you decide! May I ask where are you located?

 

[Suebe]

Well he is beautiful!!! I once had two Haflingers, most amazing horses!!! Haflingers and miniatures are my two fave breeds. As of now I only have 4 minis, but I'm saving for a haflinger gypsy cross! Can't wait for that!

I hope all goes well with your girls, whatever you decide! May I ask where are you located?

Thank you!

)) Gypsy Vanners are by far my very favorite breedSo that should be quite an impressive cross!!! I'm located in Southern California where there's next to no Gypsy Vanners unless you're willing to pay about 15k. I hope your share a pic when you get that beauty!

 

[Suebe]

Interesting I never new they could restrict the size. I thought genetics would control that. Either way I do agree with chandab

Actually I did a little research the last day or so since my vet is not concerned in the least but others seem to feel different. I found claims supporting how you and the others feel but also people that have had this happen, with a greater size difference in some cases and interestingly enough the babies were born the size of mini foals but by yearlings most were well over12hh. My vet insists while genetics plays a part in size it will show up as the baby grows after it's birth. I'm very torn on what to do only with my more mature mare. Not sure I want to terminate a life if the situation is ok. Which I'm still not totally convinced either way. The other mare is way to young! Babies should never have babies.

 

[MyGoldenSunny]

I'm going to PM you

 

My advice is to treat both with the morning after shot. While there are those that believe the size of the mare will determine the size of the foal I don't believe that by a long shot. I've known too many times when a mare has tried to deliver a foal that is too large for her and the consequences were the lose of the foal AND mare. Over the many years of breeding, I have personal experience with this on three occasions. The first was when a mare I purchased -- a 28" mare -- I found had been bred to a 36" stallion. I was able to extract the foal but the mare never bred again, even though the vet said she was healthy. The second was a 32" maiden mare I purchased bred who after 2 hours we had to put down. Autopsy showed a huge baby that never would have been delivered. she was only bred to a slightly taller stallion and the reason for the huge foal was, I believe, the heavy bone structure of the stallion lines. In the third case we saved the mare but she had neurological damage from the difficult birth, and I sold her as a pet so she would 't be bred again.

We do the best we can for these special ladies, and I personally wouldn't take the risk the vet's prediction would be wrong.

 

[Suebe]

My advice is to treat both with the morning after shot. While there are those that believe the size of the mare will determine the size of the foal I don't believe that by a long shot. I've known too many times when a mare has tried to deliver a foal that is too large for her and the consequences were the lose of the foal AND mare. Over the many years of breeding, I have personal experience with this on three occasions. The first was when a mare I purchased -- a 28" mare -- I found had been bred to a 36" stallion. I was able to extract the foal but the mare never bred again, even though the vet said she was healthy. The second was a 32" maiden mare I purchased bred who after 2 hours we had to put down. Autopsy showed a huge baby that never would have been delivered. she was only bred to a slightly taller stallion and the reason for the huge foal was, I believe, the heavy bone structure of the stallion lines. In the third case we saved the mare but she had neurological damage from the difficult birth, and I sold her as a pet so she would 't be bred again.
We do the best we can for these special ladies, and I personally wouldn't take the risk the vet's prediction would be wrong.[/quote

Thank you, appreciate your thoughts