Watched the Western Regional AMHA

[susanne]

Did I miss a page of this thread or something? I simply did not see the attitude some have suggested.

I found Myrna's observations to be very interesting and open-minded; she commented upon the differences, and mentioned her surprise at some things, but I never read her comments as arch or condescending.

I believe that Myrna is taking undeserved heat for an imagined slight..

Yes, there was a slight bias in favor of ADS on several posts, but so what? People have their preferences -- this is true of all disciplines.

And whatever the discipline, just because "that is how things are done" doesn't mean it won't have its detractors -- look at what people say about the Quarter Horse Western Pleasure driving classes!

I really don't want to see the Driving Forum become part of the teddy bear sweatshirt brigade, where nobody dares state an opinion for fear of bruising someone's feelings.

Then again, this is just my opinion, and we all know I view the world from my left-handed, all-around lefty perspective.

 

[Sue_C.]

Did I miss a page of this thread or something? I simply did not see the attitude some have suggested.

I found Myrna's observations to be very interesting and open-minded; she commented upon the differences, and mentioned her surprise at some things, but I never read her comments as arch or condescending.

I believe that Myrna is taking undeserved heat for an imagined slight..

Yes, there was a slight bias in favor of ADS on several posts, but so what? People have their preferences -- this is true of all disciplines.

And whatever the discipline, just because "that is how things are done" doesn't mean it won't have its detractors -- look at what people say about the Quarter Horse Western Pleasure driving classes!

I really don't want to see the Driving Forum become part of the teddy bear sweatshirt brigade, where nobody dares state an opinion for fear of bruising someone's feelings.

Then again, this is just my opinion, and we all know I view the world from my left-handed, all-around lefty perspective.

What she said...

 

[R Whiteman]

Yes, there was a slight bias in favor of ADS on several posts, but so what? People have their preferences -- this is true of all disciplines.

And whatever the discipline, just because "that is how things are done" doesn't mean it won't have its detractors -- look at what people say about the Quarter Horse Western Pleasure driving classes!

Well said, Suzanne. I think what we can all agree on is that everyone comes to this forum with a slightly different perspective, based on their personal interests and histories. The written word is without emotion and this can be good and bad. Bad, because we cannot see each other's faces, gestures, and we sometimes perceive the "word' as something it is not.

We are incredibly lucky in the west, to have access to a lot of different activities in the horse world. We have friends who show every kind of horse imaginable, as well as rodeo, race, game and ride endurance horses, even "big lick" walking horses. We have to be careful not to paint them all with the same brush. Not all walking horses people are soring their horses. Not all race horse trainers are using drugs and running their horses sore. And not all of us are showing our minis in a "disrespectful" way.

I have sat in with many people with many questions about the way we show our horses. Some questions, like Myrna's come from curiousity and interest in the differences. But a lot of them come from people who want to condemn what we do simply because it is not how they do it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those (or the most memorable ones) come from other driving venues.

Myrna,

It hasn't been that long ago, that all driving horses were lumped into the same classes. At that time they were all "pleasure driving" horses. The class specs called for two trots. One was contained and called collected and one was lengthened (sometimes called extended, sometimes working). Then the driving classes were divided into Single Pleasure or Open Pleasure for the high steppers and Country Pleasure for the less extreme. At that time they started calling the "contained" trot for the Single horses, collected. The same trot for the Country horses was the pleasure trot since it was to show a little less animation. Now we have added the Classic and they are all still trying to figure out how the horses are supposed to look there. This is the first year that it has been a part of the show program and the horse you saw win the Grand is at his first show as a "classic driving horse".

I am always excited when a judge of an AMHA show also holds an ADS card; I'm not sure the halter folks share my enthusiasm.

As to the disrespect shown the judges in the line-up, I'm sure that none of those people thought of it that way (well, at least most of them) It is the same to them as when the judges finish with the halter horses and everyone stops showing and moves off to the rail to visit. If you continue to show your horse, you will be standing out there all by yourself. I think it is a practice that looks bad to those watching for the first time (or anytime), but it is the way it is done, none the less.

Dorothy

 

[ClickMini]

Well said, Dorothy. At the last show I was in the lineup, frozen in place in a driving stance. Patty was heading for me, and she said, "Amy! Amy, RELAX!!!"

I tend to get very tight when I show. I needed that! Patty is a carded judge herself.

I am very glad that they did the webcast and people got to see what the shows are like. I wish I would have been able to take the time to watch, too. When I heard about the Classic division, the very first horse I thought of was the Reserve Grand at that show: Sky Blue Remington's Ricochet. She has the most incredible floaty motion, but she definitely has a lower set neck and a very flat outline naturally. I love this mare! She is going to be an awesome all-around horse in the years to come.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

As to the disrespect shown the judges in the line-up, I'm sure that none of those people thought of it that way (well, at least most of them) It is the same to them as when the judges finish with the halter horses and everyone stops showing and moves off to the rail to visit. If you continue to show your horse, you will be standing out there all by yourself. I think it is a practice that looks bad to those watching for the first time (or anytime), but it is the way it is done, none the less.

Dorothy

Generally the only time halter horses go to the rail is after the announcement is made that they are "excused to the rail" to wait for results.

I watched the end of one driving class on the webcast where two ladies were in animated conversation during the line up - so animated that they were talking with their hands... one of the ladies (someone I hold great respect for in most cases) not only had put down her whip, but had her reins in her lap while she chatted and relaxed... at one point even putting her feet up on the dash of her cart! I actually exclaimed out loud to my computer screen when I saw that!

I've only shown in breed shows and local open driving shows, and I'm all for having fun - that's why I show too... but there's a balance between enjoying yourself and just plain "decorum" that does show a respect for the process, the judges and the rest of the entrants. There's also a line involving *safety* that you don't cross if you're not alone in the ring.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Point well-made, and right on target, Appy!

I have been showing in breed rings, open, and ADS-rules(ONCE, the Open Driving classes at our State Fair 'went for'ADS approval, TD and all, but the cost was so high, it was never tried again)since the early '70s. One of the most well-respected riding instructors in my area, a man who trained you to train your horse AND present it at its best, taught that it was important to keep showing until you were 'released', so to speak, and I believe in doing so.

In the miniature breed ring, there are even today a considerable number who really don't 'know' much about horses or the showing of them; this may explain a lot of the sloppy stuff you see...but back when, it was expected that you'd STUDY and LEARN about a subject you intended to immerse yourself in, so not knowing is really not an excuse. Standards exist for a reason; when they are allowed to fall, so does successful accomplishment.

I did the 'breed show thing' for a good number of years, esp. in miniatures, and with good success --even though I never traveled extensively(and didn't want to; I wanted to ENJOY it(and I DID-- believe me, I DID!)--but, not feel DRIVEN by it.)As my 'education' in driving progressed--AND, things changed in the miniature breed show ring, from the friendly easy-going atmosphere when I began to an increasingly widespread 'anything goes as long as I win' approach, complete with what I consider abuse of horses(NOT SAYING everyone does it; that's never the case, in any breed...but the sad fact is that more and more DO, in about EVERY breed)...I lost my desire to participate in much of what's offered there...so I don't, and I won't, again.

Susanne, what you wrote was just 'perfect'...and I'm a confirmed 'righty', in MOST but not ALL, ways!-- I really admire what you said-went right to the heart of the matter.

I am not particularly 'PC', so I would say that I think a couple of you owe Myrna an apology. You know, it is NOT against any law for someone to hold their own opinions,have faith in the evidence of their own experiences and education, and not walk in lockstep with the opinions some of you may hold.(And to allude to the 'stick up some ADS members'rumps' is, I believe, needlessly insulting, and quite beneath the dignity of the one who posted it.There may well BE some 'elitism' among the ADS'ers on the coasts...so what else is new?--but to point a snide remark about it to a fellow LB Driving Forum member who did NOT deserve it was uncalled-for. Yes, my opinion.

Frankly, I am one who has come to GREATLY prefer ADS-style, warts and all, over miniature breed ring manner and style--and I'm not shy about saying so... so shoot me!! (I started in the '50s with QHs, and I don't care ONE BIT for the sick, sad way they have been 'prostituted'over the years, either, in halter conformation and ring movement(rail, mostly)- and I don't hesitate to say so, including how they are driven and 'go' in the breed ring!) Additionally,in a breed show(AMHA)-I have(gasp!) gone right ahead and circled to an open space on the ring on occasion...when going deep into the corners and other practices haven't been enough. I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING, and how to do it! Often? NO, but when I had to...I don't think it ever 'hurt' me. I did know the rules, made it a point to when I was showing...but I also trust my own experience and judgement.

I also have(gasp again!!) used breeching in the breed ring, and when I had a good 'go', did well under judges who truly knew their subject(many still do NOT, in the miniature breed rings, at least where driving is concerned.)

Being an ADS-carded judge is not a 'guarantee' of being a 'good' judge, either...as in ANY organization, there are some really GOOD ones, and some who are really NOT so good.

Fire away; I'm old and my hide is tough. I have, and have had, some mighty good horses; well-trained and reliable. I am at the point where I will enjoy them outside of most 'show rings', but I feel I have the right, based on experience and a great immersion in the subject in general, still to have valid opinions and comments on the direction of the sport. I admire those of you who are active and always working to be 'better' at this,BTW--that's what it's about, not imagining offense where none was intended.

Margo

 

[Marsha Cassada]

When I was volunteering at an A show last summer I was running around pretty much in different directions. A spectator asked me what was the difference in the gaits in the Pleasure Class. The spectator suggested the difference in collected trot and working trot was speed. I gave the quick answer, becasue I needed to be somewhere quickly, which was yes. I wish I had had time to give the long answer--as I understand it: The working trot should have more extention. Correct?

One does not often see it at the shows; I think it takes lots of training for a horse to show extension, and most of the driving classes are more to show the horse CAN work in harness.

I like the observations about correct manners in the line-up. Sometimes we need to be reminded that we are on camera at those events and representing our organizations and horses. We ask our horses to be well groomed and mannerly; why should we expect less of ourselves?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I do appreciate that my comment was snide and apologize for giving offense. I too would hate to see honest appraisal and frank conversation censored on this forum but I felt that the comments about our whips being SO HEAVY and our carts SO UNCOMFORTABLE were so condescending that they deserved a response. I know they were said with an edge of humor- so was mine. Do any of us really have to sink to that level?

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

Speaking of reading carefully...

I addressed the Pleasure trot issue in my last post. I may not be RIGHT, but I did try!

We must have been posting at the same time, or I was drafting.

OK, I have let this mill around my head for a while. I think this is a case of, "I know you think you understand what you think I wrote, but I know that what you read is not what I meant."

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understood that I wasn't trying to be critical with ANY of my comments. I also wasn't trying to show any bias towards ADS events, but trying to show the differences. Apparently, it didn't come off that way.

 

As far as my joke in regards to carts being uncomfortable and whips being heavy, you have to understand where I am coming from. Here is a video that I found that illustrates how long we are in the ring at an ADS show, and it doesn't even include the inspection of each turnout, which usually takes another ten minutes or so.


(This is a Championship class, with one horse from each division in the class, hence all the different sized horses.) 

I remember thinking the first time I showed at an ADS show ten years ago, "Wow, when are they going to call for the walk!" I couldn't believe how long we had to trot! We never worked that long at any other show I had been to, 4-H, open, or breed show. Now, when I work my horse, it isn't uncommon for me to trot (different speeds) for 25-40 min. straight.

 

More than likely, I too saw the class that Karen did where the lady put down her whip and practically dropped her reins. When I think of how long we have to drive a class, some of the webcast's driver's "reactions" when they were done with their five minutes of rail work seemed "comical". I read it as, "Whew, that was a tough drive!" Many of us here do CDEs where you are out on the course for a 30+ minutes! Now, granted, I know that some of the drivers are showing in multiple classes all day/all weekend.

 

You also have to understand that I started showing ADS shows in a Wagonner show cart. That WAS the absolutely most uncomfortable cart that I have EVER rode in! It was literally like sitting on a board! And it had no backrest. (Here is a photo of the turnout we used. This is my sister driving, and (gasp!) we didn't use breeching either when we first started out.)

 

I also noticed that many of the drivers held their whips straight up, and like we have had discussions about before, that IS tiring! Some of the drivers held their whip at a 45-degree angle, and that way is not as tiring, especially if your whip is well balanced.

 

In the big scheme of things, there are some ADS drivers who "relax" some in line up when the cards are turned in, but most of us have already sat up for almost 20 min., what's another few? And as you can see, the photographer is not in the arena like the breed shows, and actually it is not uncommon for there to be multiple professional photographers snapping shots. Here is an example of a shot taken of me this year in line up (which I didn't know was being taken).

　

 

Can you imagine how this photo would look if I were in my typical relaxed slouch with my hands on my legs? Yuck. Therefore, I choose to have me and my students stay "upright" for the whole class. I didn't say that anyone was lazy for not doing so, I said that is what I choose to do and teach! (I didn't even think anyone was lazy for doing so. I did think that it wasn't overly professional to do even before the cards were in, and like has been said, I wasn't imagining this.)

 

Now, as to the differentiation of gaits, if you go back to the YouTube above, you will see that when they call a Strong Trot, the turnouts definitely move out. It is what is expected at all levels. If you want to place well, it is primary (besides manners). Look at the difference especially between the Slow Trot and the Strong Trot. The horse's frame is different as well as the speed. I do think that the video actually slows the horses down more than they look in person, though. Maybe this is the case with the webcast, too.

Again, a few years ago when I was a Novice Driver learning what a Strong Trot was, I remember thinking, "OMG, this is so fast!" Granted, I was in a cart with a Morgan, but we also show a big horse, and then I knew what Strong Trot meant. When I was defining the ADS gaits here, it was to help people understand where I was coming from in not seeing the differentiation in the webcast horses. I wasn't saying that ADS was better, just that when the Strong Trot is called, the whole class seems to be like a tidal wave of power moving past you, even the minis, and like I said before in relation to someone else's comment, I didn't see it in the webcast. Maybe the AMHA discourages that much speed. (The Strong Trot in the ring isn't anywhere near the speed produced on the obstacle courses, though! Obstacles rock! )

 

I can also see the idea of "showing on the rail" now. We don't have that rule persay, but as you see in the video, "grandstanding" is not a problem. I do remember one year that a gentleman showed up with an Andalusian. He spent most of his classes "bouncing around" the judge. It was annoying to watch. A lot of us were "dying" to see that horse move out on the rail, but he never did, which like I said, is what the judge wants to see. You could tell he was trying to "force" a placing, but it totally backfired and he didn't place at all. So I can now understand why you have such a rule, but like Margo said, I think that circling back would still be a good idea to show your horse to the best of it's ability, especially during the "big" trot, whatever you call it. When I first started showing Alax, I would try to "fit" behind another horse. Chad pointed out to me that Alax moved so much bigger that by not getting off the rail to find a spot, he never actually produced much of a Strong Trot. When I finally decided to let him go down the rail in our own spot, our placings got a whole lot better.

 

I was skeptical initially about posting this topic, but decided that it was very interesting for me to see the differences. I should have known that someone was going to take my comments the wrong way.

 

Myrna

 

 

[~Lisa~]

I guess it goes to show all ADS shows are different. The ones we have here they do not trot around nearly that long. It is pretty much as quick as the breed shows. Short of the ADT which of course takes a while to do the pattern . But again all shows and all areas are going to be a bit different.