What does AMHA need to do to survive?

[Margo_C-T]

With all due respect...if the horse is already oversize for AMHA, you couldn't honestly take him Permanent there anyway, so it's not really a matter of your 'choice' whether or not to 'register him with AMHA', but a matter of following the rules.

Margo

 

[Margo_C-T]

On the 4-H/unrelated youth issue---I can't see how that could be made to work. The 'concept' of AOTE I always thought was a good one.I was(don't breed show anymore, for several reasons) a prime example of an AOTE exhibitor--did ALL my own training, prep, showing, handling...which I LOVEDI have a genuine 'lifetime' of horse experience...took 'lessons' here and there, but didn't use 'trainers'...because through all those years, I became knowledgable about how to train, and love the immense satisfaction of bringing a horse to a highly usable level of knowledge and performance.

Unfortunately, I observed the AOTE rules (not 'always', but significantly, IMO)being subverted. It is next to impossible to 'police' such a program; in reality, it has to rely most heavily upon people's personal ethics. As I see it, the same thing would likely be an issue if AOTE horses were allowed to be used by 'any' youth in 4-H, or even in some of the other venues Charlotte mentions. It should always be remembered, too, that the 'law of unintended consequences' will likely rear its head in such situations.

Margo

 

[BriarwoodAcres]

With all due respect...if the horse is already oversize for AMHA, you couldn't honestly take him Permanent there anyway, so it's not really a matter of your 'choice' whether or not to 'register him with AMHA', but a matter of following the rules.

Margo

Correct, so in this case, there is no reason for spending the money on a membership when all of my mares are "R" only for his papers to be pulled is what I am saying. Does that make sense?

 

[sfmini]

To DJF, I am not sure what in my posts you are responding to so I have no reply on that.

By the rules, I can have my horse with a trainer this year and show it AOTE next year as long as I bring it home before Jan. 1. It also allows people to freely buy horses and show them AOTE the following year without worrying about pro trainers in the horse's past.

If you limit an AOTE horse to that division for life, you ruin sales potential. Same goes for open horses.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

As for the not being allowed to bait a halter horse, there is no rule forbidding that in the ring. For measuring yes, and heading a driving horse, catching at liberty, halter obstacle, no baiting. I find nothing in the rule book that doesn't allow baiting of a halter horse.

No stretching is allowed in halter or measuring, but there is a difference where the halter horse can have one hind leg back, and in measuring all 4 must be square. There are pictures in the rule book to illustrate acceptable poses for halter horses.

If you see people breaking rules, file a protest! If a judge is not doing the job correctly, ask for and fill out a judges evaluation form. They are read by the LOC and a copy without your name is passed on to the judge.

One rule I see broken constantly is dyed legs which are not allowed, but it is ignored.

PS, I am also a retired trainer, but my focus was dressage, no halter and no driving experience. I can train my own driving horses, but as I get older and more breakable I prefer to have someone start them for me.

 

[Minimor]

For those who say that people do not prefer multi-judge shows, that this is a myth or whatever the line was...I guess then the people who have told me outright that they would rather go to a show with 3 judges rather than just 1--those people were lying? Multiple people have told me that, and I have had no reason to think they aren't bring honest.

 

[minimomNC]

Minimor, I was just stating about memberships in general, not in respect to paperwork. Yes I know the person sending in the papers only need to be a member, but if someone is buying stock to use in breeding, they need to be a member to register their own foals. But to just be a member, you don't have to pay two full price memberships with either registry.

Briarwood Acres, its was confusing, you stated you had applications for A and R, but you then said the stallion is already registered but oversize. The right thing to do is send in his papers to AMHA and have them revoked. No need to transfer or get a membership. As for prices, some are higher in AMHA some higher in AMHR, I want to have horses registered with both, therefore I will pay the price for each one, I knew that when I got into minis 10 years ago. Now that we also have AMHA/ASPC horses, I again want the papers with both registries. My advantage is when AMHA still had life memberships, we got one. I do have to pay for AMHR every year for myself and my daughter. Membership has its priviledges LOL.

 

[BriarwoodAcres]

Minimor, I was just stating about memberships in general, not in respect to paperwork. Yes I know the person sending in the papers only need to be a member, but if someone is buying stock to use in breeding, they need to be a member to register their own foals. But to just be a member, you don't have to pay two full price memberships with either registry.

Briarwood Acres, its was confusing, you stated you had applications for A and R, but you then said the stallion is already registered but oversize. The right thing to do is send in his papers to AMHA and have them revoked. No need to transfer or get a membership. As for prices, some are higher in AMHA some higher in AMHR, I want to have horses registered with both, therefore I will pay the price for each one, I knew that when I got into minis 10 years ago. Now that we also have AMHA/ASPC horses, I again want the papers with both registries. My advantage is when AMHA still had life memberships, we got one. I do have to pay for AMHR every year for myself and my daughter. Membership has its priviledges LOL.

I think I realized what happened. I have 2 stallions, One of them has an application and the other one is registered but over the height requirement. I can say, the one who has an application WILL be sent in and an AMHA papered horse. I didnt know i could send the other ones papers in without a membership, Thanks!

 

[JWC sr.]

You know there are a lot of really good folks out there that want to keep, breed and show their small equine that have quit because of a number of different reasons.

We hear from them all the time as we were so heavily involved with the AMHA horses and now for the most part only shown AMHR/ASPC for the last several years.

The comments usually range from they hated the politics, they felt they were not welcome in the registry, they could not compete, the economy is terrible, down to they just did not have any fun at the AMHA shows anymore.

I listen and very rarely make any comment other than to say there is a place for all sizes of small equine and you should keep/show what you personally like.

We have continued to breed our AMHA horses and dearly love them as well as we do our Shetlands and B sized minis as well.

We also will be showing at a few AMHA shows this coming year again also. I went to the recent Katy show (AMHA) just to see everyone and they had a small, but really fun show. The only thing I did not like was how old it made me feel seeing all the great kids we have known for so many years growing up so durn fast. Oh Well, that’s what I get for getting to be an old codger I guess!!

My suggestions to AMHA are as follows:

1. Do everything you can to include folks in the registry. Make classes, shows and awards for all levels of competition and types of horses. I was once told by a AMHR official 5 or 6 years ago that their approach was “Inclusion is our prime goal, not exclusion for any reason” Pretty durn smart approach from the results they are seeing over the last several years.
   
2. Along those lines set up a foundation division like they did in the Shetland registry where a horse has to have 4 or more traceable generations of miniature registered parentage.
   
3. Continue to expand and encourage youth and amateur participation.
   
4. Encourage participation in local shows with national awards being given for show results based on local show results only.
   
5. Anything else they can think of to encourage registry, local show participation and the owners of smaller herds around the country.
   

Just my two cents worth anyway. I honestly hope they make thru these rough times also.

 

[Minxiesmom]

This was my first year showing in AMHA. I showed at three of the NWMHC shows and the Western Regionals. I come from a background of showing the last 5 yrs in Pinto in the NW with very successful results. I showed my Sr. Gelding in AOTE, Amateur Lvl 1 and Open Halter, Color, and AOTE Classic Driving and Amateur Lvl 1 Classic Driving. I did all my own grooming. I learned lots of tips and tricks from the other Amateur and AOTE gals that I became friends with. I, too, had heard that AMHA was no fun to show in because it was full of unfriendly and cut throat people. What I found was a WHOLE BUNCH of really fun, horse crazy people that I enjoyed and learned so much from!

I was successful showing my gelding, winning Western Regional Champion AOTE Sr. Gelding and Champion Amateur Level 1 Sr. Gelding. I got a Reserve Champion in Color. At no time did I see anyone showing in AOTE that was a trainer or had a horse in training. Granted, I didn't personally know everyone in my class, but I knew many of them. If someone's horse had been with a trainer after Jan 1, that was kept very secret.

AOTE in the NW is VERY COMPETITIVE! There are lots of people that have been showing for many years and are very good at it! I chose to become friends with those people and they took me under their wing and showed me the ropes. I have learned from one of the best and my results proved that I listened!

I love that Amateur is divided into Level 1 and 2. It gives newbys like me a better chance. It doesn't bother me one bit that some of those horses are in training. It just makes me become better at fitting and feeding my horses to compete. I even had the nerve to try showing in open!!! Hey, I wanted to see how I stacked up against those BNT. Did I win...no...but I wasn't too far behind them and I actually placed pretty repectably!

AMHA is fun. AOTE is fair. The people are nice. Even some of the trainers that ignored me the first couple of shows, started warming up to me and talking to me by the last show. It is all in what you make it to be! I can't afford to go to the World show because it is too far away from me. It's ok. I proved myself, to myself, at the Regionals. Maybe someday, I'll save enough and have the right horse to make the trip to the World, but probably not. I will be happy staying in the NW and showing my little geldings! I will enjoy the process and enjoy all my new friends!

 

[joylee123]

I agree with what all of you have said, but my take: when we started showing years ago the clubs in our area, like a three or four hour drive, would host AMHA & AMHR, the entries were always less at the AMHA shows so they stopped hosting them. this is just my opinion, but the big time trainers have taken over AMHA, the ammy classes are really not ammy classes, as I've seen trainers hand the horse off to the ammy, so they are pro trained.

AS for AOTE, the rule book states that in order to qualify the horse must be trained by the Owner and not have been at a trainers since Jan of the year being shown, so people will have their horse professionally trained then enter the classes.

Now really nothing wrong with that if you have the money to hire a pro. I can't flame those that do, cause I've done the same myself. Most people that are new to mini's just don't have the money to pay a trainer thousands to show & travel, it's only a few that have that kind of money in this economy. Now that attendence is done, locally and the shows are further away there is added costs involved for the average Joe owner, only to spend all that money and lose to a pro. Believe me I've gone to shows where I havn't had any horses entered, just to watch and seen the horses with trainers place, when they shouldn't have, some act up in the ring and the judge gives the trainer extra time to set up, but will walk past the AVerage Joe that is having trouble, not always, but just sometimes.

It would help the organization to go back and encourage the clubs that hosted their shows in the past to do so again, also the regional shows need to rotate locations, as in my area it is always in the North and too far away. One year it was hosted just six hours away and that worked for us as I'd be willing to attend every other year. Yes they need to pomote more, and have an ammy class for AOTE exhibitors that actually trained their own horses from day one to encourage new people with little money to show up. Also I belong to both organizations, but havn't been able to show for a couple of years, but would like to get back to it.

I understand what you are trying to get at but how many large breeds break their own horses to show? In AOTE you still have to do your own conditioning, all prep work like clipping, facials and you have to be good enough to maintain the training gone into the horse to begin with which is why it is so nice to have the different levels to allow beginners to grow and learn:0)

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

I second the ordeal that cost is a huge ordeal with AMHA.. It can be expensive to show at their shows in comparison to some AMHR shows. I honestly do not own any AMHA horses at this time and didn't even renew my membership this year either as I knew I was not going to be showing with them. Kinda a bummer but thats not to say I won't in the future though. I also have to say that show at the World show would be a big deal its just costly. Showing at Nationals is hard to, yes you might not have to qualify on a point basis but to place top ten out of 30+ horses to me is a big deal!

 

[joylee123]

Take advantage of the dissent in AMHR right now - there are MANY people in AMHR who are unhappy - at Nationals it was obvious, everything from the Shetland influence and prevalence ot the measuring (there were some BIG horses in both divisions). If AMHA could take advantage of that, they could gain many members. All the things you are talking about are ways to take advantage - lower fees, more shows, etc., but probably the biggest is for AMHA to ACTIVELY WELCOME new members. Whether justified or not, when talking to people about why they stay R and not A, the attitude of the members is the biggest reason. I've been told AMHA is more "snooty", "snobbish", "arrogant", and a number of other terms, by not just one or two but dozens of people. Whether this attitude is real or just a perception, it has to change in order to really grow the organization.

I'm in an area where I could easily attend multiple (at least 3) AMHA shows a year, but don't. I have both overs and unders, and half my horses couldn't show A. For me, I can really only show one registry, so it is the one that all my horses can show at. However, a lot of R breeders are concentrating on unders, as with the Shetland influence in R's, many breeders who don't want to "go Shetland" feel they can only be competitive in the unders. THOSE are the people AMHA needs to target!

I used to show AMHA back in the early 90's and for personal reasons not related to the horses stopped for a number of years. Several years ago I re-enterd the show ring (AMHA) and started attending several shows a year. I personally( we are a small little known farm) have been made to feel welcomed, have made bunches of friends, have been helped by both regular members and the professionals, and I in turn help anyone I can. I feel a MAJORITY of the individuals I've had the pleasure to meet involved with the AMHA ( members and staff) have been friendly, helpful and very nice! The show management folks I have dealt with have been exceptionally helpful, pleasent and very professional! I think in any horse show field you will find "snobbyness" I sometime think that can be a "horse" thing LOL! but my and my husbands experiences have been nothing less than wonderful!

 

[joylee123]

This was my first year showing in AMHA. I showed at three of the NWMHC shows and the Western Regionals. I come from a background of showing the last 5 yrs in Pinto in the NW with very successful results. I showed my Sr. Gelding in AOTE, Amateur Lvl 1 and Open Halter, Color, and AOTE Classic Driving and Amateur Lvl 1 Classic Driving. I did all my own grooming. I learned lots of tips and tricks from the other Amateur and AOTE gals that I became friends with. I, too, had heard that AMHA was no fun to show in because it was full of unfriendly and cut throat people. What I found was a WHOLE BUNCH of really fun, horse crazy people that I enjoyed and learned so much from!

I was successful showing my gelding, winning Western Regional Champion AOTE Sr. Gelding and Champion Amateur Level 1 Sr. Gelding. I got a Reserve Champion in Color. At no time did I see anyone showing in AOTE that was a trainer or had a horse in training. Granted, I didn't personally know everyone in my class, but I knew many of them. If someone's horse had been with a trainer after Jan 1, that was kept very secret.

AOTE in the NW is VERY COMPETITIVE! There are lots of people that have been showing for many years and are very good at it! I chose to become friends with those people and they took me under their wing and showed me the ropes. I have learned from one of the best and my results proved that I listened!

I love that Amateur is divided into Level 1 and 2. It gives newbys like me a better chance. It doesn't bother me one bit that some of those horses are in training. It just makes me become better at fitting and feeding my horses to compete. I even had the nerve to try showing in open!!! Hey, I wanted to see how I stacked up against those BNT. Did I win...no...but I wasn't too far behind them and I actually placed pretty repectably!

AMHA is fun. AOTE is fair. The people are nice. Even some of the trainers that ignored me the first couple of shows, started warming up to me and talking to me by the last show. It is all in what you make it to be! I can't afford to go to the World show because it is too far away from me. It's ok. I proved myself, to myself, at the Regionals. Maybe someday, I'll save enough and have the right horse to make the trip to the World, but probably not. I will be happy staying in the NW and showing my little geldings! I will enjoy the process and enjoy all my new friends!

Well said!!! It pretty much mirrors my experiences! Love my AOTE and Ammy classes and have done pretty darn well in my open classes too! Congrats on your awesome year!!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I used to show AMHA back in the early 90's and for personal reasons not related to the horses stopped for a number of years. Several years ago I re-enterd the show ring (AMHA) and started attending several shows a year. I personally( we are a small little known farm) have been made to feel welcomed, have made bunches of friends, have been helped by both regular members and the professionals, and I in turn help anyone I can. I feel a MAJORITY of the individuals I've had the pleasure to meet involved with the AMHA ( members and staff) have been friendly, helpful and very nice! The show management folks I have dealt with have been exceptionally helpful, pleasent and very professional! I think in any horse show field you will find "snobbyness" I sometime think that can be a "horse" thing LOL! but my and my husbands experiences have been nothing less than wonderful!

I think this is true and for the most part I would say being made to feel unwelcome is not the issue at all for me. There are places I will never show because of attitude, have had people say "no point in showing against *** because they are no competition" and while I have been disappointed to be in a class where I felt I placed (or won) only because the others in the class had horses who were either notably poorer in quality or poorly turned out and presented I would not pull my entry (nor avoid entering) because those people need to try showing too and may be my biggest competitor next year when they have learned more or purchased a better horse. The vast majority of people I have met with minis are open and friendly, happy to talk to you and offer help to anyone who wants it. We really do have the nicest people in miniatures regardless of which registry they join IMO.

PrestigeMiniHorses says "It can be expensive to show at their shows in comparison to some AMHR shows." and I have to say that in our club's experience it costs us so much more to host an 'R' show and there are so many fewer horses to enter the classes that it is not worth it for us. We tried hosting a combined show and found the extra expense of 'R' was not worth the entries.

My complaint and that of others I have talked to is AMHAs inclination to charge for every little thing. In full sized horses when a foal is registered it remains so and the registry will not require you to pay again to register the horse as an adult. It does seem that the membership requirement to do anything with the registry is a trend and I know other registries do it as well but I know a number of people who will not bother to transfer a horse because that would require a membership and if it is a youngster then several years of memberships as well as 2 fees to register, DNA etc etc. So in my experience it is not the people it is the $$ that is keeping new members (and driving old ones) away.

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...

Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.

There would be Champions and Grand Champions within each height division but NO COMPETITION between height divisions... Not fair any more than showing Quarter Horses against Arabians or Arabians against Morgan Horses. QH and Morgans have their roots in the Arabian Horse breed but are never shown against each other as far as I know (unless it is an open show and breed doesn't matter, just performance).

One registry and members could show their horses according to height with only one membership. No other breed of horse that I know of has two registries... Why two (or three if you count WCMHR) registries for Miniature Horses?

The one common mantra I see is everyone wants the Miniature Horse to be a horse BREED and not a HEIGHT breed. As long as there are three registries no one is going to agree on a breed standard. The Welsh Pony & Cob Society has Sections for A, B, C & D, according to size and/or body type horses (One Breed; Four Sections) and they show accordingly... why not do the same for Miniature Horses?

Go to: http://www.welshpony.org/index.php and read the descriptions of the four Welsh types...

Kari

 

[Norah]

I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...

Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.

There would be Champions and Grand Champions within each height division but NO COMPETITION between height divisions... Not fair any more than showing Quarter Horses against Arabians or Arabians against Morgan Horses. QH and Morgans have their roots in the Arabian Horse breed but are never shown against each other as far as I know (unless it is an open show and breed doesn't matter, just performance).

One registry and members could show their horses according to height with only one membership. No other breed of horse that I know of has two registries... Why two (or three if you count WCMHR) registries for Miniature Horses?

The one common mantra I see is everyone wants the Miniature Horse to be a horse BREED and not a HEIGHT breed. As long as there are three registries no one is going to agree on a breed standard. The Welsh Pony & Cob Society has Sections for A, B, C & D, according to size and/or body type horses (One Breed; Four Sections) and they show accordingly... why not do the same for Miniature Horses?

Go to: http://www.welshpony.org/index.php and read the descriptions of the four Welsh types...

Kari

I agree with this 100 percent ! I showed my ASPC mare in an open registered class against a quarter pony , and welsh cob ...i don't know how the judge could judge fairly in a situation like this . I would love to see AMHA allow all 3 registries at 1 show. If AMHA allowed this people could have AMHA registered shows in Europe , and still allow the other horses, AMHA would benefit financially .

 

[Minimor]

I am curious how a show that runs AMHA one day and AMHR the next could find AMHR so much more expensive? AMHR requires a steward of course...our steward costs our show about $600. Judges fees would be the same for both shows and the AMHR show sanction fee is $35 per judge, so $105 for three judges. Does AMHA charge nothing at all?

 

[I AM Ranch]

We too are new to showing. Our 3 rd AMHA show was this year's World show. I was pre warned about the people being not as friendly as the AMHR folks. Well, the people were incredible! Everyone was super nice and super helpful! I was there with my 3 daughters and they would come back to our barn all excited over meeting different people and how helpful they were. One experienced "shower" even took my 15 year old up and gave her a private lesson. Another person gave me some needed paste electrolyte. Another brought me dresses to try on when we unexpectedly qualified for the Grand driving class. I had only brought one dress for each of my classes. Another person took us to the bling store. Another offered us a shower in their camper. Another group fed us dinner one night. Another person helped pack up our trailer at the end.....I could just go on and on about the kindnesses shown. This next year, we are aiming for AMHR but that is only because we want to see the over 34" horses drive. But, I will always be grateful to our new and old AMHA friends for making our first World show a wonderful experience.

 

[disneyhorse]

I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...

Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.

There would be Champions and Grand Champions within each height division but NO COMPETITION between height divisions... Not fair any more than showing Quarter Horses against Arabians or Arabians against Morgan Horses. QH and Morgans have their roots in the Arabian Horse breed but are never shown against each other as far as I know (unless it is an open show and breed doesn't matter, just performance).

One registry and members could show their horses according to height with only one membership. No other breed of horse that I know of has two registries... Why two (or three if you count WCMHR) registries for Miniature Horses?

The one common mantra I see is everyone wants the Miniature Horse to be a horse BREED and not a HEIGHT breed. As long as there are three registries no one is going to agree on a breed standard. The Welsh Pony & Cob Society has Sections for A, B, C & D, according to size and/or body type horses (One Breed; Four Sections) and they show accordingly... why not do the same for Miniature Horses?

Go to: http://www.welshpony.org/index.php and read the descriptions of the four Welsh types...

Kari

There are actually several breeds that have different registries for the same horse. I have friends that breed and show big horse breeds.

Andalusians have the PRE registry as well as ILAHA.

Friesian horses have the FPS as well as the FHANA registry.

It is common especially with foreign breeds but there are similar challenges ( some consider one registry more prestigious, others prefer the cheaper registries...)

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I am curious how a show that runs AMHA one day and AMHR the next could find AMHR so much more expensive? AMHR requires a steward of course...our steward costs our show about $600. Judges fees would be the same for both shows and the AMHR show sanction fee is $35 per judge, so $105 for three judges. Does AMHA charge nothing at all?

The cost of judges is the same for us regardless of which registry they judge for but since we must fly everyone in the extra person (steward) is a chunk of change for us when you add up flights, accommodations. meals and day fees, there are also the ribbons and whatever the champions receive beyond the ribbon, then to see only 4 or5 'R' horses entered it just isn't worth us running a combined show. AMHR is not popular in this province for the most part, there are a few out there but the owners don't seem terribly interested in showing. Or at least they weren't interested in hauling to our show so why bother. Even people only 5 or 6 hours away didn't enter so for us it was not worth it. In fairness we have not had exceptionally good turnouts for our 'A' show either and this year our club will probably not be going to the expense. Why spend all that money on a show when only our own members enter and many of us can not since we work the show. There is another club who has also dropped their show as well so there are fewer choices for those who do wish to show and they will now have to haul greater distances to take part. But that is another subject entirely

Disneyhorse is correct about there being other breeds with more than one registry, I believe even Arabians have at least 2 and maybe 3 registries.