What Is The Future For The Miniature Horse?

[SampleMM]

I'm curious to know other people's opinions on this matter. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately because it's been a long, cold winter and spring and I guess I've had too much time on my hands. During my thinking sessions, I've been asking myself this question and pondering these things. Is the market going to continue to be so pitiful that a registered mini can be and is being sold for a couple of hundred dollars? Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive? Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros? Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? Do we need to buy a 34" Shetland which is really 36" (triple registered) in order to keep up with the current trend? Agree or disagree with me, I'm okay with that.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I am not qualified to speak on all topics, so I will limit myself to just one of your questions.

Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending?
I do not believe that miniatures by are prone to dystocias based on their size alone. Instead I believe miniature breeders have inadvertently selected for mares and stallions prone to dystocias and worse yet they have attempted to 'fix' the problem by keeping them more confined and watching them even closer. I was unable to find a study in horses, but I would like to refer you to this study's conclusions done on dairy cattle and I encourage you to consider if maybe these points are applicable to minis.

The economic costs of dystocia are four
times greater than the treatment
costs alone.

Confinement is associated with increased risk of dystocia, particularly in
heifers.

Dystocia rates tend to be lower in industries where selection indices have
prioritised calving ease over many years.


In cows, the primary cause of dystocia is
abnormal foetal position associated with sire, breed of sire, fetal gender and fetal mortality.

At the national level, control of dystocia is dependent
upon genetic selection programmes and
producer education programmes.

At the farm level, control of dystocia is dependent upon
sire selection, heifer rearing
and veterinary-led investigation of high dystocia herds.

At the animal level, control of dystocia
is dependent upon calving
management and the adequacy of obstetrical assistance.

Dr. Matthew Taylor

 

Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? Agree or disagree with me, I'm okay with that.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I've only had 3 losses among all the foals I produced due to a bad dystocia. In all 3 cases the vet was in attendance once I determined we had a problem that would require extra hands and vet experience. Although I lost all 3 foals, two mares were saved and went on to produce perfectly fine in the future. Two of them were "new" mares to me, purchased in foal, so I had no prior knowledge of their foaling history or the sire's production history.

The girl I lost we had to euthanize, as after 3 hours of work, she just looked at me, and I knew it was time. Upon autopsy, we found that there was no way we would have ever gotten that foal out.

I think Dr. Taylor's comments on confinement and assistance are important to remember. Mares require exercise and room to roll. All mares here were out daily -- only being brought in after dark, and only so they could be monitored overnight (I slept in the barn, sometimes in the stall), and then out they went again in the morning. No extended confinement, as I believe they need their normal exercise patterns, the ability and space to roll babies into position and being part of their normal herd to keep stress levels down.

Personal education on what problems can arise and what to look for, and steps you can take to help resolve problems -- even when waiting for vet assistance -- to me is critical to getting these little ones safely on the ground. I've foaled out mares less than 27-28" tall with no problems and no dystocias. Two of the 3 girls mentioned above were 33-34" mares, only one was a teeny one who was purchased bred, and I found later the stallion she was bred to was really 34" tall (not the 31" they claimed he was) -- something I would never breed to with a teeny one. Baby was just too big for mom to produce on her own, and was hip-locked, but she went on to produce fine after that experience.

 

[MountainWoman]

I think it's going to be a problem selling miniatures for a long time unless you are a well known farm. I send my horses out with a trainer to show and I'm doing it for me and for my own pleasure - not because I think my horses will sell for more money. I could never recoup my showing costs with the prices my minis would bring even though I have World Top 10s. But I love seeing my horses out and about and to me the pleasure of it is worth the money. I expect nothing back in return and I don't consider it an investment I'll ever recoup. If I did, I'd be better off buying stocks.

I for one am phasing out of breeding. I've enjoyed it but I don't think there are enough quality homes for foals or even long term homes. I don't want to see my babies spend a year or two at one farm, sold to another when they've fulfilled their broodmare duties or stud duties and on it goes. And while it's so awesome to have a new life arrive, it's also a huge responsibility that we have brought another living creature into the world which is why all my foals are still with me.

Anyway, I'm just going to enjoy my minis and do other things with them besides making babies (just had the vet out gelding two incredible boys the other day) and I have no plans to go get a triple registered horse just to follow some trend that will be here today and gone in a few years.

Life is too short to worry about what everyone else is doing and no matter what horse you have someone out there will always have a better one and so it goes.

 

[bunni1900]

And while it's so awesome to have a new life arrive, it's also a huge responsibility that we have brought another living creature into the world which is why all my foals are still with me.

Well Said, MountainWoman! I never have and never will expect my horses to create a profit. I am simply happy owning them and being with them. I will perhaps have a couple foals a year, but will never breed more than 4 mares annually (if that).

I got into the minis because of my love for the breed as a little girl and cherish the fact that I am now able to have my own! I am looking forward to my first foal crop by my young stallion in 2015 (a whopping 2 foals expected LOL). My older stallion (who is 23 this year) will get a couple mares every now and then and most likely many (if not all) of those foals will be kept for our enjoyment.

My frustration is with those who breed to make "a quick buck" i.e. "backyard breeders" who breed them more like beef cows to be sold in quantity. I have vowed to myself and my horses that I will not allow myself to become overwhelmed by acquiring too many. Each one of my horses is given daily individual attention and I plan to keep it that way. 3 of my mares have been through upwards of 5 homes (the oldest of these mares being 11) and this will be there forever home.

As for the "phase" of the triple registered horses, it, as others, will pass and people will move onto the next one.

 

[Riverrose28]

Wow, Debbie, we think alot alike. I stopped breeding a few years back although I did breed four mares that foaled last year for their new owners, (at least three did, I retained one as a no sale and foaled her out). I can't answer the question of the market ever recovering, if it does it is way to late for our farm. As for the triple registered horses, I'm not so sure it is a fad that will just go away. I saw my first AMHR/ASPC horses at Nationals in I think 2005, I hadn't really noticed them here in the east before I saw them there, but they could have been around. They were the ones placing in halter in the B division, and top A spots. I'm very stubborn and at that time said it was a fad and I wasn't going to jump onto that band wagon, problem is now I wish I had. soon I was seeing some top of the line breeders jump onto that wagon and have dispersals of their top winning AMHA/AMHR horses, and buying triple registered. Soon the top breeders/trainers were winning all the top spots in halter not only at Nationals but Worlds. WE used to have a trainer show our horses and although exspensive was wel worth it,or so I thought at the time. Now I think it really didn't have any effect on being able to sell foals, it was more for our own vanity to see our farm bred horses shown and place. Also all of my breeding stock were bought from top breeders/trainers, and I paid top dollar, can't recoup that money with their offspring, no way. Also I'm bad at marketing, period. About showing, I don't mind that the trainers train, show in halter then hand the trained horse off to an ametuer, but I think that there should be height divisions for AOTE, so that the true ametuer/tainer doesn't get discouraged. Maybe also add somekind of newbe classes to AOTE, maybe call it a schooling class and maybe don't point it. ANyhow it is my sincere opinion that if you don't have a triple registered horse you will not place high in halter at Nationals or Worlds, so I will not be attending these shows again as I don't have the money to change my program or to even continue it.

 

[Gone_Riding]

I agree and wonder the same things...

I bred my mini of excellent breeding to the best stud I could, but it was so I could have the foal and have no intention of selling her. After that experience, I may or may not breed again. If I do, it will be the baby when she's much older so I can keep her baby. There's practically no market for minis where I live, so I'll leave the breeding to the fancy farms. It cost me $500 just to get my baby on the ground due to expenses, and that was me saving the baby, not a vet. The stress alone was horrible! Well bred, registered geldings are $200 here. It costs at least that just to geld the guy, so I don't know how the farms are making money off their babies (except for the ones that have been shown). Even then, the cost of showing sucks up that profit.

I'm in the process of trying to show my mini in our first show. And I mean for both of us. I am a TRUE amateur that has no clue what I'm doing, and I'm worried that I'm just wasting my money by even attempting it. I debate back and forth, "What am I doing?" I have no trainer nor training. I'm terrified of trying to shave my mini, because it still hits the 30's at night, even if it's 65-70 during the day. I worry that she's just going to get sick. Or worse, I'll do a lousy job or can't finish shaving her. YouTube How-To videos can only take you so far... I don't even want to shave her! I've got a family that I could be taking on a nice vacation for what I'll be putting into showing this year. Is it worth it? I think that ALL DAY long...

I also worry about the size issue... I bred my 37" mini (that's what is says on her papers, but I believe she's really 39") to a 32.5" stud to hope for a real 36" mini. The crossing for whatever reason popped out a midget. She'll be the same size as her dad. Now I have a baby that will be smaller than I wanted for driving. Since I live out in the country with a nice long 1/2 mile walk to the mailbox, there are lots of places for me to drive her. She won't be as strong as her mom will for the job. And all because I wanted to make sure the baby was showable.

As far as the showing, I still might back out. I have the premiums for two shows all made out, just ready to put a stamp on and mail them out. I'll be honest, I'm waiting for the last minute to mail them. Because of the pure fact that no one else has handled my mini but me and I have never shown before except for a local "hick" show when I was 14. That was over 20 yrs ago, and I didn't have training back then either. For me to mail them out, I'm going to have to swallow that it would just be an expensive hobby with hopes of not placing last.

 

[disneyhorse]

Maybe I'm not seeing the same things....

The ASPC minis have been around a long time and they were really a force at nationals back in the late 90's so it's been a good long time.

I'm not seeing the horse market as very slumped... But what exactly is an "ideal" price for a mini? $1,500? $5,000? I'm seeing plenty of quality horses selling for these prices and higher.

Other breeds are far more expensive to show, more expensive to send to a trainer, and some breeds have inspections/keurings which add expense.

There are backyard breeders of every type of animal, that's just part of the "market" that has been and always will be.

Foal losses happen in every size... The lady breeding andalusians and percherons where I board has proportionally had a good number of dystocias but the births are always attended. Valuable horses usually have attended births... Why invest that much stud fee, time, and mare care to lose it at the final hour? And yes, I agree with Dr Taylor that it can be genetic (and I also believe late-dropping testicles and kicking stifles to strongly be in this category too).

 

[MountainWoman]

I wonder if prices are regional to some extent? There are also many markets within the miniature horse world and those of us looking for horses that will show are going to be spending more than someone looking for a companion. I see lots of top quality big name farm horses selling for good prices (I've purchased a couple myself) but if you're talking about the average unknown farm trying to sell a mini at least in my area they aren't going to get a high asking price just because you can go to a well known farm instead.

RiverRose, I have a question because I'm still learning. My horses aren't tripled registered. Most of them are A only and not R at all and all my horses that went to AMHA Worlds placed last year in the top 10. How would the judges even know if your horses were tripled registered? Are the triple registered horses looking different from the straight AMHA horses? Is it the Shetland influence?

 

[secuono]

As just a pet horse owner looking in, I wonder how or why any of you keep breeding and showing. The market is flooded with junk that is both cheap and expensive. There are a lot of perfect show horses out there as well, cheap, cheap and occasional expensive one. Very few new people are buying the pricey ones. They're getting the cheap ones, breeding them and hoping for something better to come out of it. I'm sure there's a separate world in the ring, like there is with show rabbits, but the same issues can come up.

Was the stress you mentioned not of labor issues, but the overall stress on the body of the horse being bred over and over? With an unknown future for the foal in this market? I don't think it's worth it right now. I'll never show/breed horses, dogs or cats, there's no need and thousands of excellent animals are tossed aside due to money issues or other problems.

I think slowing down and only breeding truly perfect animals for awhile would be better than to continue as is and just hope the market/interest picks up.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

The issue is simple - supply and demand with no realistic market for culls. Horses are livestock. Livestock is stock. Stock needs to have a salvage value to be profitable.

When the market was good, there was a demand for horses. When the economy crashed, no one had money for luxuries (aka horses) anymore, so the demand stopped, the supply didn't. Somewhere in that time frame horse slaughter then became illegal and effectively shaved $600 off the price of every horse in the country in the process. Instead of Fluffy going to the plant and maybe one or 2 auctions first, Fluffy now goes through auction to auction to auction where he eventually ends up in Backyard Billy's Barnyard after being sold for $50 where he eventually just withers away in the back 40. Horse's dropped in value hard and fast because of the lack of 'salvage value.' it might be blunt, and this probably isn't the thing to say to a group of horsemen - but bringing back horse slaughter would not only provide more food for the nation, but would increase the price of horses, stop the market from being so flooded, and therefore the price will eventually turn around.

I am a dairy farmer. I ride the market for a living. My market swings MUCH more than the horse market, and instead of a hobby it is a business that supports 6 familes. In 2009, when milk hit an absolute 'why even bother' price, we lost money. We knew we were going to, but the truly excellent farms got through it. This is maybe the Miniature horse world's '2009,' the best will get through it, the rest will go out, but regardless, it WILL turn around someday. Dunno how, but have faith!

I agree with Doctor Taylor 100% - the main cause of dystocia is human error and poor choices with breeding! I disagree with confinement on heifers though - 4 years of college and a Dairy Herd Management degree later I have still never even heard of that. My girls are in 'confinement' housing in a freestall - and we have to pull maybe 3 to 5 a year out of 800 or so calvings. The reason for that? Healthy, properly conditioned animals and GENETICS. In cattle, pasture is not needed to effectively manage them and keep them healthy, they are not horses though and horses are a TOTALLY different story.

Here, all animals are bred to Bull's that have a less than 93% chance of having calves that need assistance to be born. Heifers are bred to bulls that have less than a 95% chance of a rough calving. All bulls selected have a +1 or greater DCE score, or daughter calving ease, meaning that their offspring will be small as calves, then grow to be ladies with 'good birthing hips.' However, the cattle industry is FAR more advanced in terms of genetics and reproduction as opposed to the horse industry. We don't have those numbers on stallions because their get is not scrutinized and studied like cattles are, they don't have the volume of offspring cattle do to come up with reliable numbers, or even a way to determine a stallion's produce value that's not 110% subjective.

It's all based on show winnings, a judge's opinion, or our own personal opinions on how his 'babies look' - and in the process of that we end up with DUDs. Its a fact of life, when stud companies test bulls we get DUDS, but because of genomics ( an emerging technology that maps the genome and correlates amino acids sequences with genetic traits ie an adenine here means he will probably sire posty legged offspring ) we are getting less and less. But in cattle, we sell those duds for beef after we milk them awhile and just don't keep her calves. There is a market for those culls. In horses, we try to pass that dud along to the first sucker that will pay cash for it, market it as a 'real nice horse,' and they take that dud and breed it again, making more duds for the next sucker to buy, flooding the market and driving down the price of even the nicest horses because of it. There is no realistic market for these culls.

Do all breeders do that? No. Does everyone who gets a dud breed it until it can't anymore? No. There are a LOT of really good, really responsible breeders and homes out there that we often forget about. We should take a moment to recognize them instead of always griping about Barnyard Billy. It's really not all that bad out there! First world countries are the only ones that geld and spay their problems away, but the only ones with overpopulation problems, therefore its OUR fault! however, its no more Barnyard Billy's fault for pumping out dwarfy unregistered critters than it is Showring Susy's for selling her duds - it all boils down to an over supply and an under demand. One of the two needs to change. How? Don't ask me. But I think the VERY first step is to stop pointing fingers at either side, and to come up with some kind of realistic market for culls.

 

[little lady]

Many great points already made so without getting on my soapbox for days I just want to say...each individual must be happy with what they are doing for themselves and quit trying to be like the Jones's. You should do what makes you happy with your horses. If it is showing at worlds and or nationals, if it is raising foals, if it is trading horses, if it is showing at your local shows, if it is rescuing the unwanted or if it is just having a fuzzy lil one to bury your nose in be HAPPY with YOUR choices.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think IMO you have to be known in the miniature horse world to be able to successfully sell foals at a good price. That means going to shows and be involved in your registry. I'm not a huge well known farm by any means, but those who I see all the time at shows know who I am and vice versa. I would have a better chance at selling cause people know what I have, all my horses got shown. Yes showing is expensive but you got to get yourself out there, and you don't need to hire trainers to do it but I've hired trainers in the past and have one currently with a trainer.

Also you don't need to breed so many, two is plenty. A lot of these big farms breed for so many but at the same time you see them having lots of dispersals, or auctions and its just not worth it. Breed the best and keep them and show them or keep them til you get the price you want, and don't breed again til you get them sold.

If you have miniature shetlands it will help but if you have good AMHR or AMHA stock people will buy, but it may just be a little harder.

IMO if the registries continue to improve to help the miniatures then I think they will be fine, perhaps not like they were over 10 years ago when they were pretty high in demand, but the miniatures need a strong backbone and that's our registries. I got out of breeding but hope to do so again next year. I got myself a nice mare that I have personally trained and shown and she is close to being a 3X Hall of Famer so I consider her worthy of breeding and she will be bred to a top notch show proven stud who is worthy of remaining a stallion. I am not looking to breed to no bodies anymore.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I don't breed and rarely show. I have no farm to promote and cannot absorb very many horses. But I sure hate seeing bad horses making more horses. It is a heartbreak for the owners--if they care. But irresponsible animal breeders/owners aren't ever going to go away.

I think the registries are doing a great job of building up miniatures and ponies! Creating an educated and discerning market is the best way to ensure the value of our horses in the future. I belong to AMHA and AMHR. I feel my membership helps, even if I am not very active.

OP, maybe with warmer, sunshiney days coming you won't have to think so hard and can get out and play with your horses instead!

 

[Marty]

Here's my take on the questions at hand

Is the market going to continue to be so pitiful that a registered mini can be and is being sold for a couple of hundred dollars?

Yes. In general it absolutely is going to be pitiful and contrary to popular belief, it is not solely due to the economy as so many would care to believe. It is mostly the fault of the greedy breeders that can't seem to control their numbers.

Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive?

That depends entirely on if you have money to throw around that you don't need. Showing cost money. You can hire the best handler and trainer in the world and that is always going to be a crap shoot.

Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros?

That depends on your attitude. If you are out for fun, it shouldn't matter much who is in the ring with you.

Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending?

Of course not.

Do we need to buy a 34" Shetland which is really 36" (triple registered) in order to keep up with the current trend?

Plenty of people jump on the bandwagon every time there is a new fad. Doesn't mean you would be any closer to a big win.

If it were me, I would show the kind of horse that I love; the kind of horse I am passionate about.

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive?
That depends entirely on if you have money to throw around that you don't need. Showing cost money. You can hire the best handler and trainer in the world and that is always going to be a crap shoot.

Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros?

That depends on your attitude. If you are out for fun, it shouldn't matter much who is in the ring with you.

Marty I agree with you. Showing isn't all about winning. Yes I am competitive and yes I love to win, but I can't afford to hire a trainer or buy a horse for big bucks. For me the challenge is YOU making YOUR horse a winner. I do my best and know that I honestly trained and did everything myself. You can't win it all, if you keep improving and keep learning you will do better.

 

[MiniNHF]

I got into miniatures because of my ability to no longer train horses, especially TB's from the track, due to a car accident I was in 5 years ago and I was lucky I have recovered enough to even enjoy riding.

My first love is training and then showing horses and the miniatures have opened up a whole new world for me but have also brought me back to what I love. The market is saturated with breeders and showing is expensive yes but that has not deterred me. In the future would I like to breed, yes but like I said that is the future and not in the next couple of years.

Did I get my boy cheap yes I did, but he was not priced cheap by any means before I purchased him, the barn owner wanted to help me get into miniatures with a well bred younger horse she had left. One thing I have learned is that if you are new and have a younger horse they will teach you things and you will both learn together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him, he is built well and has been to worlds etc. Is he a challenge yes but I enjoy it.

What I dont understand is the farms that take especially the mares, show them one year and after they win big that first show year they throw them into their breeding program and they never show again? It reminds me of what the TB's go through.. if they are 5 years old they are getting to old to race and need to be pulled. Seems like I never see the older miniatures competing (like the teens). I competed my older horse big horse until he was 20 before I retired him.

Is showing in general expensive yes, but just a rated show for my disciplines (in the big horse world) will cost me a few hundred in entry fees for just a one day show and then not adding on gas, food and other expenses. There are plenty of non-rated shows that will be less expensive then the rated shows. All depends on what kind of showing you want to do. This year since I am getting into miniatures and showing I have chosen to do a few local rated and a few local non-rated so I do not break the bank and its a learning experience. You dont want to spend the money for Regionals, Nationals, Worlds or what have you when you are still learning its just a waste of money and can deter a new person if they dont do well etc.

 

[HGFarm]

I show because it's fun for me, win or not. I love hanging out with the wonderful folks who also have this passion for horses and doing fun stuff with our wonderful equines.

Is the stress of foaling worth it? Yes- it's part of breeding any kind of animal/bird/whatever. For the MOST part, foaling goes well with only an occasional issue. My mares are never confined. They are only stalled at night when they are VERY close to foaling. I have still had an occasional dystocia or issue, so not sure what the answer is there, but I agree that confining pregnant mares is not a good thing. In nature they would move around all day and would require keeping up with the herd.

I think quality horses still sell well. Maybe they are not bringing what they were 10 years ago, but there is still a market. But then houses, property, and other things are not bringing what they were back then either, so it's all relative.

 

[Amoreminiatures]

I believe the Small Equine / Miniature Horse is here to stay, they cover a large market in our population, first time owners, large horse owners whom have decided the reach is a bit to far up and the ground is hard, children, so on.. I do believe the market is changed in the CONFORMATIONAL desires as a lot of owners are looking for a more refined sleeker type, which has been in MINIATURE HORSES for a extremely long time, if you are a oldie you remember certain bloodlines that were way before their time, and if you are even a older timer you realize MINIATURE SHETLAND was the norm and even they have evolved, so I do not think that is the SHETLAND or it is this or that.. I know toooooooooooooo many people bought a stallion and a mare and thought hey this is a great way to make a buck and the enjoyment of miniature horses of course but people bred like there was no tomorrow to CONFORMATIONALLY challenged horses and produced ..... and continued the cycle, instead of SELECTIVELY breeding horses an thinking what if.. I can't sell, something happens, what if.......... Now, look at what happened............... overbreeding, and not looking at the true realist market and trend, now that folks have stopped over breeding and things are settling down maybe we will see MORE VALUE in our Miniature Horses.. Remember folks there is nothing wrong with GELDING also......... And by the way I am extremely PROUD to be the owner of a TRUE 33" ANYDAY EVERYDAY ASPC AMHR AMHA Stallion whom produces TRUE AMHA AMHR ASPC SIZE miniature horses with babies / FULL ADULT AGE OFFSPRING 31.50" - 33 ... Just my personal opinion...

 

[Jean_B]

I figure I will do what I want, how I want, when I want and where I want...according to my budget and my goals, to the best of my ability. And when it stops being fun, I will quit. Until then, I will continue to STRIVE to breed a truly kick-a@@ mini that makes my heart skip a beat. And what the rest of the world thinks is really none of my concern. Guess I'm going back to my 60's roots.