What is your opinion about the long toes seen on some driving horses

[Sanny]

Farrier was out yesterday and we talked about this.

I've seen some driving horses with pretty long toes at shows, especially at nationals, and I've been told by many people to "take down the heel and keep the toe long on the driving horses".

I'm told it increases the horses leg action and they have a longer stride and so will look better in the ring.

Kind of like how we would look if we were trying to run with clown shoes or swim flippers on our feet. We'd be forced to take longer strides and raise our feet high in the air.

Do you agree or disagree with doing this.

After talking to the farrier he felt for our horses a longer toe would make it harder for them to jump high and also harder to run faster. Since they are "all-round horses" not just driving horses we decided it was more important to have a well trimmed foot that felt good and natural to the horse and either they will have the "leg action" naturally or not.

What do you do, and how do you feel about the long toes.

 

[Warpony]

i much prefer a balanced hoof that is trimmed to work with the leg in the best possible way over a long toe to increase action. My brain tells me log toes would put more stress on the joints and I'd rather avoid that... but then again I want an all around pleasure horse and I don't show.

 

[Kim]

Long toes on driving horses is one of my biggest pet peeves and is not something that I would ever do to my own horses. I am very concerned with not only my horses' short term well being, but also their long term health and soundness, and I am not willing to compromise either for an advantage in the show ring.

Long toes are detrimental to a horse's soundness and put unnatural stress on tendons, joints and bones. Long toes can make a horse succeptible to problems (eg: navicular, laminitis, lameness) that would likely not arise had it been trimmed in a balanced fashion. Besides, to me it's questionable how much long toes will even increase a horse's stride anyway. As an aside, I have thankfully not noticed excessively long toes as being much of a problem in the AMHA showring in recent years, although they used to be quite prevalent.

 

[Fred]

We tend to do a little bit of everything. I tend to keep the feet a little longer because I do drive and I would rather have them sound than short and tender. Proper trimming and angles and TRAINING is what makes a good driving horse. A good driver doesn't hurt either. I don't like excessively long feet and if the horse is good they will go well if they have long feet or not. Linda B

 

[Minimor]

IMO there is a difference between "long feet" and "long toes". Morgans (and Saddlebreds & Hackneys) are generally shown with long feet--everyone refers to toe length, but in reality the hoof is at the correct angle; toes are long, but so are the heels. This extra length of hoof will enhance the lift of the feet, due to extra weight...particularly when you add shoes and pads with toe weights.

Long toes, on the other hand, I think are hideous. They are very bad for the horse IMO because they are just that--relatively normal heels and excessively long toe length. Think "shovel"! I've seen people show their horses with feet like this--one trainer came up to a show here one time & had her horses all done up that way. It looks very bad, as if she couldn't get her farrier to do a long overdue reset, and so she decided to show the horses anyway. It gave them more reach, all right, but it ruins the stride overall. It totally changes the breakover so instead of a nice round stride (Morgans are supposed to have a nice round stride--I won't describe it here) the horse's feet are kind of out in front of him--he picks the foot straight up & flings it out in front. I can picture it perfectly, but I'm not describing it very well! It's, well, hideous and no, I would never trim a horse that way.

A little bit extra hoof to enhance the action just that little bit, okay, maybe, but long toes? No, absolutely not. Ugh.

 

[disneyhorse]

I totally agree with Minimor on what she just posted.

AND I also think that breeds should stick with what SHOULD be "appropriate" to the breed.

For instance... miniature horses are supposed to have hooves trimmed round, and as short and compact as possible (or something to that effect, as worded in the breed halter standard in the according Rulebook). They just shouldn't have long feet or toes.

Modern shetlands should have a long foot and weighted shoes, as preferred in the section of the Rulebook.

Going against the breed standard to gain an edge is not something a breeder or showman should be striving for, in my opinion.

I am growing my Modern shetland's feet out so she can be competitive in the ring (most Moderns have long feet). Her angles are proper and my farrier is monitoring her for hoof wall separation (as can happen with these unnaturally long feet) to maintain her foot health.

Am I growing out my miniature's feet, because he is also driving? NO. That's not what the breed rulebook seems to call for.

That said... yes a longer foot DOES enhance motion. If it didn't, breeds such as Morgans, Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Modern Shetlands, etc. wouldn't do it!

Andrea

 

[Boinky]

I agree linda! My ASPR pony has what i consider pretty darned big action. I was always told to let the toe grow out to help with action. well coming from a saddle horse background it bugs me to see them longer..LOL he also has pretty much been standing in the pasture since i got him for various reasons....so i hacked those puppies off to a nice balanced foot..and guess what..he has MORE action with a regular trim than long. I think your right if the horse has it..it probably will have it either way and slight length might help it but you shouldn't need any extreme measures to get it!

 

[Sandee]

I had not heard this argument before my farrier brought it up last year. He left my driving horse with longer toes in the back with just that reason "they look nice and they make him step higher". After 8 weeks I told him to put them back like they should be with the proper angle as his frog had with drawn on those back feet and I was concerned about not having the cushion!

I'm still not sure EXACTLY who is right or wrong but could that have been part of the cause of my lunging problems with him? Did it make it so he didn't even want to run or work? Don't know but we won't be doing it again!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I've heard that horses that naturally grow longer toes on their back feet do make excellent driving horses, I've got several of them and I find that too be true, but they are trimmed like they are suppose to be

:

 

[Warpony]

IMO there is a difference between "long feet" and "long toes".

well said!!! :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[Fred]

A short compact foot that may be appropriate for halter may not work for a driving horse as they may wear the foot down more. Balance is the key [angles]. I have a mare that the trainer showed with long feet and it took away her motion, brought her home cut her back and man can she move. Boinky saw her at the last show in Maine, and she'll vouch for me. A horse either has it or doesn't. You may be able to skate by for a while with long toes but they will catch up eventually. Long feet truly are another matter. Some horses are sensitive and can't go with long feet it throws them off, some it won't bother at all. Linda B

 

[Boinky]

yes she showed better at the MMHC show! nice action!

 

[Sanny]

This is what I like about the forum. Being able to pose a question and get good information and advice and hear about other experiences.

So now I am wondering if I actually need to be careful not to keep their feet too short if they will be doing a lot of driving, I don't want them getting tender feet. How long do you usually go between trims? In warmer weather we try to have the farrier out between 6-7 weeks because I want to be sure their feet are in good shape.

Is that too frequent?

 

[Fred]

I really don't like to do my guys too often in the cold weather because the ground is like concrete. I also only trim my driving horses when they need it during the warmer months. Some will go 8 weeks some will go longer, it depends on the horse [and sometimes if I have the time!]. At 8 weeks I am not trimming off as much as I am shaping them and checking angles. If a horse is going really well I tend to leave them alone just before a show. Not because they will be sore but because I like the way the horse is moving. I'll tell you when I worked for Rolling Ridge I was constantly getting static about my horses feet being too long. Yes, I show in halter but I WANT my horse to be SOUND in driving and they [Rolling Ridge] carried the short foot to an extreme. They were so paranoid about measuring in and the "look" of the foot they didn't take into account the horse needs a foot to stay sound. I did their horses they way they wanted and I kept mine the way I knew they should be. Linda B

 

[CharmedMinis]

I asked my farrier about this last year, and he said, "Sure they look nice and have better action that way, but it's horrible for their legs and tendons!".

 

[willowoodstables]

We tend to do a little bit of everything. I tend to keep the feet a little longer because I do drive and I would rather have them sound than short and tender. Proper trimming and angles and TRAINING is what makes a good driving horse. A good driver doesn't hurt either. I don't like excessively long feet and if the horse is good they will go well if they have long feet or not. Linda B

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner!

Seriously, I remember someone at a show questioning the longer feet and I mentioned that especially on gravel or hard packed surfaces you need to have some cushion. I DO NOT advocate long toes..it does NOTHING for the motion except put a strain on the knees and ankles. NATURAL angle to the fetlock is what I use. The way I look at it, I'm going to get a placard made to wear at shows that states..if the shoulder doesn't move the rest won't move!

Kim

 

[DakotahMoon_Ranch]

I prefer a nicely trimmed hoof that is balanced, but I will say... we bought a 36" mini stallion at an auction who's hooves were WAY overgrown so we had our farrier trim him to make sure there was no founder (there wasn't, he was just way long)....but I have to tell you , that boy had the most amazing movement !!! He's now a happy fat gelding living in central FL - and I HOPE that the plans the buyer had to have him trained to drive went through because I can still picture him in my mind and he was just WOW. So I do think it must 'help' them in the way of making them pick up their feet and extend more when they move - I just wish there were a better way to accomplish that if it's not a natural trait that they are born with.

 

[Fred]

Maybe I should start a thread on proper trimming. The long toes are supposed to promote reach, you actually see racehorses have a longer toe and lower heel [supposed to promote reach]. Higher heels are supposed to promote lift. There is a tendency to think more is better. Not so. Balance is what is needed. A horse should move forward freely. Linda B

 

[Margo_C-T]

I totally agree with the term 'hideous' to describe the length of toe I've seen on some horses, both 'in person' and in photos in the breed magazines. I can't imagine that anyone who really knows anything about what constitutes proper hoof health/care, or has any regard for their horse's bottom-line well-being, would allow the horse's feet to be trimmed like that....

I also agree that there is a distinct difference between 'long toes' and 'long feet'. However, I do not think EITHER is conducive to a horse's well-being, and would not subject any horse to either! I call long feet 'stovepipe hooves',and wonder if people don't realize that allowing the entire foot-heel AND toe-to grow so long, removes any possibility of proper ground contact pressure on the frog? Even IF proper angles are maintained(matching the angle of hoof to the pastern angle), when the whole hoof is so long, and the frog is quite literally 'lifted' well off of any chance of ground contact as the horse moves along, the likelihood of such detrimental results as contracted heels increases expotentially! And yes, IF shoeing, you can add packing and pads-but with those come another set of potential problems(horses' feet need to be able to 'breathe'; having the sole and frog'suffocated' under pads and packing is NOT the healthiest situation for them...). I do agree that it can be wise to leave a bit more overall hoof-maintaining the proper angles, not leaving 'more' toe OR heel than is correct for that individual--when using the horse. A bit more hoof wall can allow for the wear that comes with driving or other activity, especially if it is 'real world' work, not just round and round an arena. Honestly, I have never 'met' a miniature that I thought needed full hoof trims as often as every six to seven weeks....though it will vary from horse to horse, I have over time found it to be more like 8-10 weeks-though there may be the occasional individual that needs a 'touch up'-compensation for excessive or uneven growth. Main thing is, keep a good eye on how their feet look, and perform maintenance accordingly.

Do all of these machinations 'increase' the horse's 'action'? Perhaps, a little bit...my question is, why is doing these things 'worth it'???? As I've said before, and will say until my dying day, I thought the idea was to BREED FOR desired abilities? If they HAVE them(as many horses do--and yes, I KNOW you can't 'create' high/extreme action in an animal with no inherent potential--I'm talking about this apparent human 'need' to 'enhance, enhance, enhance' those that already HAVE natural ability! Why is careful and considerate DEVELOPMENT of a horse's natural abilities through proper and unhurried TRAINING so often apparently 'not enough' to satisfy?

Yes, this IS a 'hot button' issue for me, I fully admit. The old expression 'no feet, no horse' is more applicable today that ever, I believe. It is NOT just the 'long feet' breeds who have and are still creating problems for their horses by poor breeding AND poor shoeing practices---humans of ALL persuasions can share in the blame, believe me---just look at the straight pasterns and tiny, narrow hooves of many 1300 lb. QHs, for instance...and it was an apparently very 'nice' local Morgan breeder/owner who asked my then-farrier(one of the best in the state) to weld 'buttons' of metal on the hoof-contact surface of the shoes-right over the white line, on all four, so that the horse would be IN PAIN at EVERY step, but step high!--he refused, BTW--my sad point is, it's everywhere. Where minis are concerned--though when I first 'got into' them, 23 years ago, I felt it didn't much matter, I have come to pay much more attention to the size/shape of THEIR feet, certainly when evaluating them for use. A high percentage of miniatures, in my observation, have both extra TINY, and very narrow, 'mule' feet--because they generally do not bear extra weight, it is probably NOT as 'big' a deal as with bigger horses-but when choosing a driving prospect, I want to see a larger, rounder hoof of excellent hardness and horn quality, even in a mini. I would also pass on breeding to a stallion with such feet(there is at least one in my local area; lovely in several ways, but those BAD feet....

Sorry if this got a tad OT, but on the other hand--we are talking about probably the most important 'part' of a horse--at least, a horse that is actually expected to DO something!

Margo

 

[ownedbyapony]

Linda and Kim,

I couldn't agree with both of you more. Heel, Toe, Shoulder the basics of a good motion discussion., but no discussin is complete without the mention of quality of motion "how pretty it is". High is great, reach is great but neither are worth a nickel if the presentation is sloppy and labored. Excessively long toes lead to those "sloppy" movers that just aren't a pleasure to watch. Great discussion, one that is overdue, keep it coming.