liver help, please!

[HersheyMint]

@amyjoy85 sending you positive and encouraging words and hoping this gets figured out soon.

 

[MaryFlora]

Learning so much reasing through this thread. I’m very sorry you all have had this to go through. It’s an awful situation.

Hopes and prayers your mare pulls through and you get a definitive answer.

 

[Cayuse]

Thanks for that. Sorry your pony has liver problems too. It seems to be more common than I thought it would be. I just read about the newer parvo virus for horses and it looks like it could be added to the options of what's going on. Our vet didn't mention anything about it but I will bring it up and see what he thinks. How did they test yours for it?

Blood tested all three and all were neg. My pony ended up having an ultrasound and a biopsy and they found a blocked bile duct. They think he had an infection in the liver and he had a long course of SMZ's, 8 weeks or so think.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Updates on your horses, please?

 

[amyjoy85]

Updates on your horses, please?

Yes, sorry I've been MIA. It's been a busy roller coaster around here. Thank you for the reminder to get on here for an update.

My one mare is getting worse numbers wise. We did a re-check this last week and her GGT level was almost 2,600 when it should be under 24 (with no added zeros behind that)!!! AST and LIP went back down and I think both were normal or almost normal this time. She's been on 3gm of milk thistle, finished her SMZs, and is on the steroid every other day for the next handful of weeks. I took her off the milk thistle this week and am trying to find a horse specific milk thistle supplement locally. That's literally the only constant now besides dirt. Who knows, maybe it's the dirt and toxins in the ash from the wildfire 3yrs ago.

Our other horse, her levels from the first test (ggt was 23 I think) went up to 34, so there seemed to still be an issue. I haven't re-tested her yet for a 3rd time.

We are pretty sure there is pigweed in the hay they were on (likely not the initial culprit as what I've found says that affects kidneys, not liver) as there are patches of pigweed growing only in areas we have fed hay. They aren't getting that anymore though. After the first tests, we switched to certified weed free hay, but they stopped eating it well and I thought maybe there was something in that, especially after her ggt levels raised so much. They are now on haystack orchard grass pellets, triple crown senior (may switch to TC low starch as the 3yr old is getting a bit overweight), and beet pulp pellets. It takes forever to feed every day since they get 3-4 meals a day and the 3yr old scarfs (slurps since it's soaked?) food and the other takes 30+ minutes to eat. That plus having 4 kids under age 10 and being 7 months along with the 5th has been exhausting physically and emotionally.

We also had our water tested for just about everything except pesticides and herbicides and it came back clean. Our well is over 400ft deep, so I don't think those other two things would be a big problem. Our land hasn't been sprayed for 40+ years, but our neighbors spray on occasion.

A friend talked with a vet she knows today to bounce ideas off of and they thought maybe EPM. We do have opossums but haven't actually seen any for a couple years. Symptoms don't fully match up, but I may ask for a blood test on that to see if they have been exposed and maybe the other test UC Davis does as well. Probably wouldn't do the spinal tap.

Our vet said he would contact the university hospital a few hours away and get ideas from them, but he said it can take a while with phone tag sometimes. They only do phone consults for vets, everyone else has to actually take their horses into them to be seen.

Anyways, not fully good news, but at least good news that both are still alive and AST and LIP went back down. GGT went WAAY up for the one but hopefully we can get it back down. Our vet is still confused, as are we. We are just going day by day at this point. I'll probably get them both tested again this month sometime.

 

[Cayuse]

About the GGT going up, I think my vet told me that there is a delay in the time from when the initial injury/insult to the liver and when the level actually starts to rise. I think I'm trying and failing to say there is a delayed reaction . When my pony was sick, one of his levels didn't start to rise until 4 or so weeks later when he was actually doing much better.

 

[MartysMom]

Yes, sorry I've been MIA. It's been a busy roller coaster around here. Thank you for the reminder to get on here for an update.

My one mare is getting worse numbers wise. We did a re-check this last week and her GGT level was almost 2,600 when it should be under 24 (with no added zeros behind that)!!! AST and LIP went back down and I think both were normal or almost normal this time. She's been on 3gm of milk thistle, finished her SMZs, and is on the steroid every other day for the next handful of weeks. I took her off the milk thistle this week and am trying to find a horse specific milk thistle supplement locally. That's literally the only constant now besides dirt. Who knows, maybe it's the dirt and toxins in the ash from the wildfire 3yrs ago.

Our other horse, her levels from the first test (ggt was 23 I think) went up to 34, so there seemed to still be an issue. I haven't re-tested her yet for a 3rd time.

We are pretty sure there is pigweed in the hay they were on (likely not the initial culprit as what I've found says that affects kidneys, not liver) as there are patches of pigweed growing only in areas we have fed hay. They aren't getting that anymore though. After the first tests, we switched to certified weed free hay, but they stopped eating it well and I thought maybe there was something in that, especially after her ggt levels raised so much. They are now on haystack orchard grass pellets, triple crown senior (may switch to TC low starch as the 3yr old is getting a bit overweight), and beet pulp pellets. It takes forever to feed every day since they get 3-4 meals a day and the 3yr old scarfs (slurps since it's soaked?) food and the other takes 30+ minutes to eat. That plus having 4 kids under age 10 and being 7 months along with the 5th has been exhausting physically and emotionally.

We also had our water tested for just about everything except pesticides and herbicides and it came back clean. Our well is over 400ft deep, so I don't think those other two things would be a big problem. Our land hasn't been sprayed for 40+ years, but our neighbors spray on occasion.

A friend talked with a vet she knows today to bounce ideas off of and they thought maybe EPM. We do have opossums but haven't actually seen any for a couple years. Symptoms don't fully match up, but I may ask for a blood test on that to see if they have been exposed and maybe the other test UC Davis does as well. Probably wouldn't do the spinal tap.

Our vet said he would contact the university hospital a few hours away and get ideas from them, but he said it can take a while with phone tag sometimes. They only do phone consults for vets, everyone else has to actually take their horses into them to be seen.

Anyways, not fully good news, but at least good news that both are still alive and AST and LIP went back down. GGT went WAAY up for the one but hopefully we can get it back down. Our vet is still confused, as are we. We are just going day by day at this point. I'll probably get them both tested again this month sometime.

What a nightmare. You probably have seen this with all the research you are doing, but I was just reading this. It sounds like a different thing than your minis since this is in racehorses in training but I wonder if these supplements (CoQ10, selenium, omega-3) are worth a try. I hope you find an answer I can only imagine the stress.

 

[betwys1]

Yes, sorry I've been MIA. It's been a busy roller coaster around here. /// It takes forever to feed every day since they get 3-4 meals a day and the 3yr old scarfs (slurps since it's soaked?) food and the other takes 30+ minutes to eat. That plus having 4 kids under age 10 and being 7 months along with the 5th has been exhausting physically and emotionally. ///

Oh my: four smallish children, well along with a fifth; four horses, two dogs, a farm; feeding the horses three or four times a day. I surely hope you have a friend to lean on. What do you do with all your spare time?

 

[amyjoy85]

What a nightmare. You probably have seen this with all the research you are doing, but I was just reading this. It sounds like a different thing than your minis since this is in racehorses in training but I wonder if these supplements (CoQ10, selenium, omega-3) are worth a try. I hope you find an answer I can only imagine the stress.

I have seen that study. It was interesting to read! I felt like I've become even more of a nerd with all the research I'm doing, lol. I've thought about putting them on the CoQ10 but haven't. I may go grab some vit E just as a just in case it's partly epm as that is a supplement that helps with that. It is very stressful but I've noticed I'm almost on autopilot now with a good routine. That has helped. The bonus is I've been spending a ton more time with the horses, which has been nice. I just park my camping chair out there and sit and pet them as they eat.

 

[amyjoy85]

Oh my: four smallish children, well along with a fifth; four horses, two dogs, a farm; feeding the horses three or four times a day. I surely hope you have a friend to lean on. What do you do with all your spare time?

It is a lot, for sure. We are down to just 2 minis now though . We lost one back in November and then lost Bella back in May. I want to get more again, but won't til I know what is causing all this and/or know that it's fixed and won't happen again. I'm glad it's only the 2 I'm having having to feed so much and keep track of. It would be so much more work with more. I do have a great support system and my husband has been amazing in it all too. My mom's house is 100ft behind ours on the same property so the kids have been playing over there a lot more or outside more while I'm feeding. They love it. A bonus in all this is I'm getting to spend a lot of extra time with my horses. I sit in my camp chair and pet them while they eat. It is relaxing and I love it. I don't have much spare time, but I do get some. I have gotten a good routine down now so that has helped streamline it all and make more space in my brain.

 

[betwys1]

I am clutching at straws again, on your behalf: did you pet your other miniatures while feeding? None of the horses that I have handled seem to specially like being fondled - but they put up with it, so I suppose it could be a stressor - but it is a long shot.

 

[amyjoy85]

I am clutching at straws again, on your behalf: did you pet your other miniatures while feeding? None of the horses that I have handled seem to specially like being fondled - but they put up with it, so I suppose it could be a stressor - but it is a long shot.

Not a ton during feeding, mainly just a few quick scratches as I threw hay. My 3yr old filly loves scratches no matter what and tries to sit in my lap while eating sometimes if I stop petting her she makes it well known she didn't appreciate the petting/scratches stopping...we are working on ground manners and personal space more now. The one with worse levels seems to enjoy it, but it's an interesting thought about it being a stressor. I'll keep an eye on her body language more now that you've mentioned that and see if it's tolerance or enjoyment. Thank you

 

[Standards Equine]

Bless you and your family @amyjoy85 that's so much to carry!! I'm very glad to hear you have a support system.
It makes sense what @Cayuse said about delayed increase in levels. I just hope they'll start to come back down again. What a crazy/scary thing to be dealing with. I'm sending Canadian light and love cause it's all I can do.

 

[maewest4u]

First off, I'll say we have been working with our vet and he is stumped. He's been in practice over 50 years and specializes in horses. He said he's never seen a horse be like this before and that they've always improved, not gotten 2x worse in such a short time. Sorry this will probably be long. Trying to get ideas to fix issues, get her healthy, and keep her alive.

We put down a horse back in November who we thought (including vet) was just passing because of old age and his organs (including liver) were shutting down. I'm a bit suspicious of that now as looking back it was classic hepatic encephalopathy.

We just lost another at the beginning of June. She would have been 13 in August. Her GGT level was 1250 (the high limit is 24). At first (before bloodwork) we all thought it was impaction colic (which she was impacted for several days despite vet visits and treatment and had been at a show where we had a super hard time getting her to drink) until we got bloodwork done to show liver was the issue. Due to the timing of when she passed we couldn't get a necropsy done as we had no way to keep her cool for 2.5 days before the state vet hospital was open a few hours away and could take her. They are the only ones who do horse necropsies and biopsies in our area, but it's quite a drive.

We immediately got bloodwork done on our other 2 minis and 1 of them had extremely elevated GGT levels of 364 and slightly elevated AST. The other was within normal limits (23 of 24 for GGT, but slightly elevated AST of 399 out of 340). Our vet put both of them on milk thistle 3grams daily, off of all alfalfa (they were on an orchard/alfalfa mix and now are on certified noxious weed free timothy from Standlee), and we penned them up on a full dirt area so there was no way to get into anything they shouldn't.

We do have tansy in the field they were in that gets pulled when it pops up and we keep 24/7 hay out for them during that time to help avoid nibbling. There is a buttercup groundcover that we discovered is toxic and also snowberry--but can't find anything definite on the snowberry and toxicity. The one we lost in June had eaten snowberry for sure.

So the 364 GGT level was taken June 13th. On July 5th I took her in for a re-draw and her GGT is now 790. Something seems to still be poisoning her despite changing diet, environment, and giving milk thistle. Our vet is stumped. We turned in water samples for testing but that takes a week and a half to come back. We are hauling water now from a friends house in the meantime. I mixed their milk thistle in purina sr active and the vet is fine with that, but that is the only other constant besides the water. I also had given them another salt block (small trace minerals, no selenium)--but is now removed. I switched the grain this week to beet pulp to try that and see if it helps. On the 5th, he gave her dexamethazone and an antibiotic (trimeth sulfa) to try to fix it and redrawing blood on the 28th. We really need this to work. It's not fair for something here to be hurting/killing them and I feel horrible about it all. Our other mini that was mostly within limits is going to be getting blood drawn again on the 11th to see what her levels are doing.

We consulted two other vets but they want to do their own work-ups and can't see them for almost 2 weeks. We also had a wildfire 3yrs ago and everything was covered in thick, nasty ash when we got home so not sure if the deposited toxins in the soil or what they had breathed during that time are contributing to anything. The one horse that was okay bloodwork wise was not here for that fire and is only 3. She came from a different part of the state.

I've been scouring the internet all month in addition to picking our vets brain and my brain is fried. If you've made it this far, thank you. Does anyone have any ideas of what else we are missing or can do to help the horses? Bloodwork in June showed no infection. He didn't check that this time, just liver enzymes. Billirubin is normal. AST is slightly elevated and increased since the last visit from 380 to 427. BUN went down from 16 to 8, so it almost seems like she is starting to shut down. She is only 17yrs old and we've had her (and the other 2 we lost) for 12 years. No neuro symptoms at this point thankfully--those are horrible and I never want a horse to go through that again. I also have a call in to the vet about getting meds to reduce ammonia in the blood in case that is starting to be a problem, especially since we are heading into the weekend.

I'm so sad, frustrated, upset, etc about all of this. I want to go back to last summer to fix whatever the problem is before it became a problem that is deadly--so if anyone knows how to time travel, lol ( I know it can't be done and what is done is done, just wishful thinking)...

I’m so sorry to learn of all you are going through.Three years ago my two young minis were poisoned in their pasture by eating fiddleneck. Fortunately I caught it early, they were hospitalized and amazingly survived.
I know that horrible feeling you have. Feeling responsible, hopeless, desperate to find a solution. You aren’t to blame. Shit happens. You are a loving horse owner and you have gone above and beyond trying to solve this mystery. Hugs from Angels Camp, CA

 

[maewest4u]

I’m so sorry to learn of all you are going through.Three years ago my two young minis were poisoned in their pasture by eating fiddleneck. Fortunately I caught it early, they were hospitalized and amazingly survived.
I know that horrible feeling you have. Feeling responsible, hopeless, desperate to find a solution. You aren’t to blame. Shit happens. You are a loving horse owner and you have gone above and beyond trying to solve this mystery. Hugs from Angels Camp, CA

 

[amyjoy85]

Bless you and your family @amyjoy85 that's so much to carry!! I'm very glad to hear you have a support system.
It makes sense what @Cayuse said about delayed increase in levels. I just hope they'll start to come back down again. What a crazy/scary thing to be dealing with. I'm sending Canadian light and love cause it's all I can do.

Thank you. I hope levels come back down too. She is acting completely normal still so I'm hoping it was just delayed for some reason. Hoping to get levels re-drawn at the end of the month.

 

[amyjoy85]

I’m so sorry to learn of all you are going through.Three years ago my two young minis were poisoned in their pasture by eating fiddleneck. Fortunately I caught it early, they were hospitalized and amazingly survived.
I know that horrible feeling you have. Feeling responsible, hopeless, desperate to find a solution. You aren’t to blame. Shit happens. You are a loving horse owner and you have gone above and beyond trying to solve this mystery. Hugs from Angels Camp, CA

Thank you! I'm so glad you caught yours early and they were okay. It's scary being completely helpless knowing it can be a life or earth situation. ❤ Still hoping for the best and that both of the yo-yos we have left will be okay. They are both behaving normal so hoping that's a good sign.