What is YOUR standard of perfection

[muffntuf]

Wow! Clearly what I have seen is that everyone has their 'favorite' type of miniature. I have 3 left and they are the old standard that were winning 10-11 years ago. They are B sized.

I do ponies now for show. So I show Classic, Modern Pleasure and ASPR.

What I will say is I have a pony, yes she is a pony, that will size around 35" and she is a high neck, nice Modern Pleasure type head, and high stepped little girl. She is 18 months old. I doubt I see 38" on her.

Will I double register her? If she stays 38" and under, why not?

I do want to address the 42" got measured in as 38". At most - a shetland can measure about 1-1/2" shorter by the AMHR measuring standards, but 42-38 is 4 inches. That would be hard to measure in. A 42" pony now becomes a 38" AMHR? I don't think so.

So yes I agree with the comments, if a steward measured in a 42" to 38" to get AMHR papers- I would have their vision checked first. Second, I would question it. Third I would think about pulling the stewards card. I would do the same for a judge.

With that said - I do not see any issue with an ASPC pony that correctly measures in getting their AMHR papers, nor do I see any issues in a 38" miniature getting their ASPC papers, or ASPR papers. (Yes you can register if under 46").

And by the way - I love my big quarter horse butted miniature, she isn't refined, she is an older type miniature, but I still love her and she drives just fine.

Form to Function is the name of the game.

What will the miniature world do??? I have wondered myself - split into the different types as the ASPC has done? For the survival of the AMHR registry - I am thinking we will see it evolving that way. And I am not opposed to that, maybe my nice little QH looking miniature would have a shot again in the show ring????

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It all comes down to our stewards measuring in our horses and following the rules. Not saying all stewards don't there are some terrific stewards out there.

Lets review what the rulebook says when it comes to measuring a miniature horse. The animal must be standing squarely on all four feet and should not be permitted to stretch. The front legs should be on a vertical line directly under the shoulder. The back of the hocks should be in a vertical line with the animal's buttocks. The head is to be in a normal position. Stewards measure the vertical distance from the base of the last hair on the mane to the measuring surface. The crosspice, arm or bar must have firm contact with the animal but no additional pressure may be applied. Measurments are to be recorded to the nearest 1/4" unless over the required measurement for that division.

If you do not like the measurment of your horse you have 2 other tries. You can even get your horses feet trimmed but you cannot make it lame.

I don't see why we can get so many bad measurments if the rules are followed exactly what it says in the rulebook?

Also for these shetlands to be eligible for AMHR hardship registration they must go thru an ASPC/AMHR Steward and Judge, same goes with FMHA.

 

[bingo]

Why on earth should we have to show our horses the way you see fit Milo Minis?

Not every horse looks at it's best square.

Bottom line is simple if you feel you are showing and losing to a horse due to it being oversize protest. If hundreds of horses are being shown oversize then simply follow the procedures available to you and protest it.

I can say that you can not always tell just by looking at a horse.

I have 2 minis that are large one is a bit more hefty build with a head many call a modern pleasure head I simply call it a horsey head. That horse is is a true 38.00 I have another horse who is more refined and leggy as well as more upheaded with a longer length of neck. He also has a visable wither and for the record is not close up Shetland bred. Everyone is sure he is bigger then the first horse. In fact they are sure he is the one who for sure is over 38.00. The fact is he has been measured by several stewards, trainers and breeders and he is 37.00 inches.

His look and body type give him the appearance of being taller even standing next to a horse who is truly taller then he is. I am sure there are people out there who will tell you they lost to a oversize horse if they showed in his class with him and I can tell you I am equally sure they are incorrect.

 

[MiLo Minis]

It all comes down to our stewards measuring in our horses and following the rules. Not saying all stewards don't there are some terrific stewards out there.

Lets review what the rulebook says when it comes to measuring a miniature horse. The animal must be standing squarely on all four feet and should not be permitted to stretch. The front legs should be on a vertical line directly under the shoulder. The back of the hocks should be in a vertical line with the animal's buttocks. The head is to be in a normal position. Stewards measure the vertical distance from the base of the last hair on the mane to the measuring surface. The crosspice, arm or bar must have firm contact with the animal but no additional pressure may be applied. Measurments are to be recorded to the nearest 1/4" unless over the required measurement for that division.

If you do not like the measurment of your horse you have 2 other tries. You can even get your horses feet trimmed but you cannot make it lame.

I don't see why we can get so many bad measurments if the rules are followed exactly what it says in the rulebook?

Also for these shetlands to be eligible for AMHR hardship registration they must go thru an ASPC/AMHR Steward and Judge, same goes with FMHA.

Apparently some perpendiculars are straighter up and down then others JMS!

Actually it doesn't say you can't make the horse lame - what it says is that "the horse must not be lame when brought back for re-measurement". Any horse with enough drugs in it won't show lameness will it?! Sometimes it is with the help of a steward and sometimes the steward is not to blame.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Well, in MiLo Minis' defense, this is from Part 11 of the Miniature section of the AMHR Rulebook:

B. The Miniature Horse is to be shown to its bestadvantage. It is preferred that the horse stand square.

The Judge at his or her discretion may ask to have the

horse stand square, which means all four feet are flat

on the ground and at least one front and one rear

cannon bone perpendicular to the ground.

So while you can park your horse out in a mini class if you want, the rulebook does give clear preference to a horse that meets the standard of perfection when squared.

I've been following this thread for a while and don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but I have to say I am glad "this weekend's" events were finally posted as it gives me a much clearer understanding of MiLo Minis' zealous sense of conviction on the subject. Good for you for putting your money where your mouth is. I'm sure you'll experience backlash, but at least we know the protest system works. I'd like to see something like Strass mentioned put into action, but I DO think protesters that are repeatedly wrong should also face punishment--otherwise you'll have people protesting every horse they consider competition hoping to eke them out by a 1/2". To me, that would be just as much an abuse of the rules (and staff) as the people with oversize horses.

On the original topic, I think minis as a whole in AMHR specifically are changing too quickly right now to set a standard. First, it presumes that we know where the breed is headed enough to limit it, and second it disregards the many breeders that are not taking their programs in that direction but that ARE breeding for quality. I say if you have a mini that's awesome but not what's "en vogue" show it anyway--that's how you start a trend.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Why on earth should we have to show our horses the way you see fit Milo Minis?

Not every horse looks at it's best square.

Bottom line is simple if you feel you are showing and losing to a horse due to it being oversize protest. If hundreds of horses are being shown oversize then simply follow the procedures available to you and protest it.

I can say that you can not always tell just by looking at a horse.

I have 2 minis that are large one is a bit more hefty build with a head many call a modern pleasure head I simply call it a horsey head. That horse is is a true 38.00 I have another horse who is more refined and leggy as well as more upheaded with a longer length of neck. He also has a visable wither and for the record is not close up Shetland bred. Everyone is sure he is bigger then the first horse. In fact they are sure he is the one who for sure is over 38.00. The fact is he has been measured by several stewards, trainers and breeders and he is 37.00 inches.

His look and body type give him the appearance of being taller even standing next to a horse who is truly taller then he is. I am sure there are people out there who will tell you they lost to a oversize horse if they showed in his class with him and I can tell you I am equally sure they are incorrect.

If you reread what I wrote you will see that it says "should" be shown square not MUST. This leaves the door open to stretching your horse enough to make him look good but makes it a little more clear, than saying "is preferred", possibly? Still when you consider that he is absolutely required to stand square for measuring we shouldn't have to go that route should we?

I am in the same boat. I have a 35 1/4" stallion that is always being remeasured because they can't believe he isn't bigger than he actually is

I have had quite a few Miniatures as well as other horses large and small and I know where their back comes to on me and how tall they are. I also know the heights of a lot of the other horses in the show rings where we show. It isn't that difficult to guesstimate the height of a horse and I am relatively accurate. As I said I have never protested until the horse in the ring with me was grossly oversized.

I am not sure what your point is. I did what you said and protested as was my right and, basically, duty. I am asking how we can prevent these oversized ponies from being in the ring in the first place. If they win illegally and are protested there are horses that placed under them that have missed out on their Champion class because of it. Wouldn't it be better for all of us if they were never there?

Thanks RockRiverTiff!

 

[shelia]

I say good for you Lori!

You have taken the first step to stop this sort of thing! Hopefully this will be an inspiration for other people to do the same and stand up for there rights! It sounds like this was getting way out of hand and nobody was doing anything about it. It was probably someone who had been showing a long time and felt confidant that no one would dare question them. It will be truly sad if you suffer any backlash from this. There are many people who feel the same way you do and I hope this will give them the courage to make a stand also. It has to start somewhere, somebody had to take the first step. It sounds like even the stewards were intimidated by these people. You are right. It would have only gotten worse. If I had been there I would have stood proudly by you and would not care who saw me there.

Protesting will not get out of hand! Who wants to waste $100.00! Who wants to be wrong! This is the best way to attack this problem. We all have the power to turn this around. We just have to have the courage to do it. Everybody wants someone else to do it for them. We see that is not happening. I am sure the Stewards will start getting the message too and realize they had better not let them through. It is an embarrassment to them too. It is a disruption for the whole show and it will soon come to an end.

As for the different types of miniature; I think we have now evolved to the point where we can start have different breed types and categories in the shows for them. When these registries first started they most likely set the standard to weed out dwarves. We are so far beyond that now that we are now arguing on which style is the best! I think we all should have a right to preserve and breed our favorite style.

 

[crponies]

It is said that all of the stewards cannot be trusted to measure properly. I agree that they should face some kind of penalty for repeatedly measuring horses wrong. The judges and exhibitors alike should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can trust them to measure accurately.

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

Thought..... What if there were 2 seperate people available to measure horses at a show? So every horse gets measured by each steward, and measurements are valid for 30 days. If a horse is protested, then a different 3rd person would measure it. I know this would cause a back log for measurements, but it might work with some tweaking. Just trying to think outside the box.

 

[MiLo Minis]

It is said that all of the stewards cannot be trusted to measure properly. I agree that they should face some kind of penalty for repeatedly measuring horses wrong. The judges and exhibitors alike should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can trust them to measure accurately.

I don't believe that ALL stewards cannot be trusted, I have met several that have done their best to get an accurate measurement. There are so many things that can throw a measurement off even if just a little bit. I think if you had 10 different people measure the horse separately you would get several different measurements but if they were done correctly they would all be reasonably close which is the reason I don't think we should be pulling papers on horses that ARE reasonably close to 38" - another person could measure that horse and come up with a smaller horse. As long as they are being stood square and not stretched out for the measurement.

I really don't think we want to entertain anything that would prolong the measuring at the shows as it takes long enough as it is to get them all measured. It is required now that the show management provides a witness to the measuring and that should be good enough if it is done in a legal manner. One thing I did think of was requiring a witness to read and sign a sheet certifying that the measuring has taken place properly and accurately. It could list the rules of measuring and be sent out in the show package - this might help ensure that the 'witness' actually knows what is required.

 

[muffntuf]

Thought..... What if there were 2 seperate people available to measure horses at a show? So every horse gets measured by each steward, and measurements are valid for 30 days. If a horse is protested, then a different 3rd person would measure it. I know this would cause a back log for measurements, but it might work with some tweaking. Just trying to think outside the box.

Unfortunately - it is cost prohibitive to have 2 different stewards at a local show. They almost charge as much as the judges do to be there. They put in a bit longer hours though. They have to be there before the show and sometimes after the close of classes for the day for late comers to measure in.

So unless the budget for the show designates the extra cost - you won't see this happen.

But "THinking outside the box" is a good idea. What else can we do?

 

[crponies]

I guess I wasn't quite clear there, Lori. I actually meant to say it is sad that not all of the judges can be trusted as in some of them can be but not all. Does that make sense now? I think people should be able to trust every steward out there to be doing the job correctly.