What makes a pintoloosa?

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I'm afraid that, just because the Breed Register says so....It ain't neccessarily so!! The Pinto societies still think Tobiano can have face white!! Two Solids, true solids, cannot produce an Appy or a Pinto. That I'm afraid, is it. I cannot understand, nor have I ever been able to understand, why people without any proof (ie A horse that is definitely solid bred to another the same, both owned by, not merely known about, producing an Appy or a Pinto) try to pull a well established genetic truth apart. Sorry again, about to put on flameproof knickers!!
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There are sometimes horses that have the breeding, and have the gene, but don't necessarily show it, unless you really know what to look for. I have a black mare, three year old, out of my "always-produces-appaloosas-even-by-solid-stallions" mare, who is a minimal appaloosa herself, and by a near leopard stallion. The filly was born solid black, a small star and one hind white sock, that was it. Now as a three year old, she has developed two very small "smudges" on the sides of her muzzle that are mottling, but if you didn't know she was appy, you wouldn't even suspect it to be, you'd think she scraped herself on something.
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No mottling on any private parts anywhere. She is starting to get white hairs all over her body, but no more right now than any horse with a little sabino or something wouldn't get. Black hooves. Still, she's an appaloosa, I KNOW she is, and she WILL spot out a little, eventually. Probably VERY little. But if she'd been sold and someone down the line had bred her (and if I hadn't put "appy" on her papers) then someone would have been VERY suprised at some point when she had an appy foal, which I'm sure she will.

This is just an example to say that sometimes a horse can carry the gene, but be pretty darn good at hiding it.
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OK, I have a Q

I had posted pics of this mare before.

I have a mare that is out of a buckskin mare and a pinto stallion, her Grandsire is a Pintaloosa.

She is a creme buckskin with heavy mottling on her mouth/gums, around her eyes, under her tall and on her bag.

I was told that this is from her Grandsire(I think) and that it is appy characteristics and that a lot of his offspring show this, but this would have skipped a generation???

If it is NOT appy characterisitcs what is it?!

Thanks
 
I agree with Magic. I bought a solid smokey black mare. I mean SOLID.
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At age 2 she started to get mottling around her mouth & private area. At age 3 she was a full blown snowflake appy.
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That mare was an appy no doubt about it. White spots everywhere.

I raise pinto's and her dam was a tobianna pinto and her sire was suppose to be a solid bay. Opps, they also had a leapord appy stallion. Guess who the sire was???
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Needless to say, I wasn''t happy. The mare was beautiful but
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So I'm here to say,Pinto and Appy color doesn't have to show to be one or the other. cjmm
 
CJMM6 said:
So I'm here to say,Pinto and Appy color doesn't have to show to be one or the other. 
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For appys, at least, when they are younger, they may very well not "color out" til later. I sold a two year old mare that was solid black except for two small white spots on her hip (and she doesn't have the "typical" mottling either) and then two years later, suddenly she burst out with white spots all over her body.
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I'm very much afraid Pinto /Appy does have to show in oder for it to be one or the other- that is the whole point- if it does not have the pattern, it is not the pattern
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rabbitsfizz said:
I'm very much afraid Pinto /Appy does have to show in oder for it to be one or the other- that is the whole point- if it does not have the pattern, it is not the pattern
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Rabbit, so are you saying that the foals I have that are born solid but later "app out" are NOT appaloosa when they are born, but then somehow become appaloosa later???
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I was always under the impression that if a horse carried the appaloosa gene, it was an appaloosa, whether it was loud-colored, or practically solid but had some characteristics. If they are appy, they are BORN with the gene.
 
At the moment there is absolutely NO way of knowing if the horse carries any genetics for Appy at all. I have a colt at the moment I am pretty sure will Appy out- that will be his new owners bonus as no way will I sell, as an Appy, a horse that does not actually have Spots- people would laugh in my face if I tried!! I sold a colt at one year old that was roaning, had sclera and striped hooves- I sold him as "will probably Appy" - He is one of the loudest coloured young stallions I have ever seen. Was I sure he would Appy ?? Oh, YES, I just would not sell , as Appy, an animal that has not got Spots!!!!!
 
And we off to the races again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I have a sorrel mare, bald face and blue eyes with 4 white fetlocks. I think she is a minimal pinto. Her sire is a leopard appy, her dam is the same as her. She was sold to me as a pintoallousa.
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She is 4 years old now, frosted rump, lots of mottling and several white spots about the size of a 50 cent piece.
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Now I have my pintallousa. Her picture is in my avatar.
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When she foals next year I will sell her foal as a pintallousa bred foal.
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The sire is our Black and white stallion. It would be injust not to tell the buyers she may app out. JMO cjmm
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There is a HUGE difference between honestly pointing out the breeding- as I did with a foal I sold, ie " I hope you will not be disappointed if she becomes spotted as her sire is a near Leopard" and saying " Of course she is solid coloured but she is Appy "bred" so any foals she has will probably/possibly be Appy"!!!!! Of course I fully realise not all Appy foals are born Appy, but Appy skipping a generation??No, sorry, it does not!!
 
Maybe this horrible heat(almost 100 degrees here in Delaware today.) is making tempers flare. Chill out and calm down, everyone.I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion and lots of times they are far apart.Even with documentation there will still be diferences.It is interesting to read the different viewpoints.It is making me think.I have a black&white colt whose dam is an App and sire is homozygous sorrel pinto.Have to take a closer look to see what he is.I have another foal whose dam is a sorrel pintaloosa and her foals are a lab tested homozygous tobiano filly and a colt who looks to be pintaloosa(no test done yet)I have a black&white stallion who is a pintaloosa but he has been lab tested as having homozygous tobiano gene.Now I am really confused.
 
So much tension for a simple question, requiring a simple answer.

Yes is the answer.

Tommy
 
Yes, Tommy and, if you read early in the thread you will see that that is what was said- then the arguments started about "genetic" Pintaloosas that show NO characteristics
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This is ridiculous:

Quote Jane >no way will I sell, as an Appy, a horse that does not actually have Spots- people would laugh in my face if I tried!! I sold a colt at one year old that was roaning, had sclera and striped hooves- I sold him as "will probably Appy" - He is one of the loudest coloured young stallions I have ever seen. Was I sure he would Appy ?? Oh, YES, I just would not sell , as Appy, an animal that has not got Spots!!!!! <end quote.

I wish I had been able to read Karens post, it was deleted before I read any of this but I know whatever it said..she was right.

Jane...you are wrong about this. You are correct in that there is not a proven "test" for Appaloosa as yet, but anyone who knows what to look for and can visual the parents of any horse in question will know what they have in front of them. As long as you have been here on this forum you should have known that Karen knows what she is talking about in this respect and that was rude of you asking for proof. How about more of an open mind about learning this stuff? We all have been very tolerant of your insistance about Duns when in fact (as you put it) you would be laughed in the face at over here about what you consider one. Your colt you mention above who you sold as "will probably appy" was already an appaloosa.

I myself cannot stand the terms appy out, will appy later, may appy later... the correct terms would be appaloosa that may color later. There are plenty of solid looking appaloosas used for breeding stock..the key word being "looking" because sometimes appaloosa is so very minimal and can and will hide from the untrained eye -actually even a trained eye sometimes will have to visually inspect the sire and dam to feel confident the offspring is in fact appaloosa. Appaloosa is not merely "color" it is very complex. Some of this is hard to get across because in the miniature world appaloosa has been crossed with too much other stuff so you have quite a lot of other genetics to muddle through. In miniatures it is acceptable to cross with pinto and when silver is in there it's a mess to figure out. I myself don't have an an appaloosa breeding program in place because it's too hard to find full appaloosa mares, it will take me years and years to do what I wanted to do. I applaud the miniature breeders who have managed to get to where they have at the very least 3 generations of appaloosa to appaloosa breeding..that is wonderful! and only if they do this and continue with no outcrossing will there be any true appaloosas in the miniature horse world.

Now I have to say that when there is a test for appaloosa I think it will rock the big appaloosa world. In all my years of breeding the big ones I would never have believed some of the things I have seen in the mini horses. One being an appaloosa mare..and I have looked at all three of these horses.....out of a palomino mare and by a pinto stallion. Neither of these two horses have any visual appaloosa in them whatsoever or anything even remotely appaloosa in their pedigrees -nor had they ever thrown one before or after. The mare was born a pinto and started changing as a late yearling, she changed every year and is now one of the most beautiful visual colored appaloosa miniatures you'd ever see. Bred to an appaloosa stallion she produced a snowcap sabinoloosa. The mare in question was sold to Florida last year and her sire now belongs to Blue Ridge.

I know this was all off topic and the original post was already answered.
 
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I'm sorry that my question has caused such an uproar. I Can't beleive that one "simple" question could cause so many people to get upset. I thought that this board was for asking questions if we didn't know the answers to, but if it causes this much problems than maybe this isn't the place to get answers.
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Christy

To Little Wee Horse Farm, I'm Sorry that you were offended by anyone else.
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Hey, I don't know about anyone else, but *I'M* not upset.
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We are all entitled to our own opinions, we each have different experiences than each other.

Debby said so well, what I was trying to say-- those of us who know appaloosas can pretty much tell when one of our horses IS an appaloosa and will "color out".

How MUCH they will color out, well, that is always the question.
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Just a little updated info
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First, picture the LP gene as a "relay switch", which has two forms.

The normal version of this gene is the "off" position - we write it

as "lp". The mutation that Appaloosas have is the "on" version, and

we write it as "LP".

For a long time, it was assumed that dense white patterning, visible

at birth, and the LP gene itself were one and the same. In 2003,

when the genome scan was performed for LP and discovered its location

on equine chromosome 1, a very wonderful secondary finding came out,

one that helped to understand pattern inheritance in LP breeds.

Horses that were tested in the LP genome scan that had only

characteristics at birth, but were born with no coat pattern, still

came up "positive" for the mutation. This is an extremely important

finding. It means that while LP causes the traits of white sclera,

striped hooves and mottled skin, it doesn't, by itself, cause dense

white patterning. Something else must be present, another gene or

gene which works with LP, for this to appear.

Suddenly, a whole lot of phenotype data made sense, and horses like

those described here could have their progeny records explained.

You could even have a horse that had to LP carrying parents and assume that he

inherited a dominant copy from each, so his genotype was LPLP.

However, he didn't inherit any of the white pattern modifier genes we

now group together under the umbrella of PATN (for pattern). So, he

had a solid coat at birth, and later roaned a bit (LP is responsible

for that, it's actually the "fourth characteristic").

Being homozygous for LP, when bred to non-LP-carrying mares he passed

on a dominant copy to every foal he sired - had to! Some of those

mares had significant PATN genes to contribute to those offspring,

and voila - babies with blankets. If no significant PATN genes he received characteristics only..

Now for the E effect...this is the suppressing factor of the E gene or the black based horses..It was proven by another study that

Here are two of the most important things to consider when looking at

a minimally-marked LP carrying horse that can affect the expression

of what that horse has for PATN genes (white pattern modifiers):

1. Base coat colour of the horse

2. Presence or absence of white face and leg markings

With respect to the first, since black is the coat colour that causes

the greatest amount of suppression for white patterning (E-effect

study, Archer, unpublished) (Woolf 1990-96), it is quite possible for

a black horse to have one or more minor PATN genes, yet not express

them. It is unlikely that being black alone would cause total

suppression of a major PATN gene (like PATN-1, the gene we believe is

responsible for a full-body level of white patterning).

Consider black and all its derivatives the "deep end", bay and its

derivatives the middle zone and chestnut and its derivatives

the "shallow end". PATN genes are white stones of various sizes.

Put on the bottom of the pool in the shallow end, they are easy to

see. On the bottom of the deep end, only the biggest will be visible

from the surface.

Because of this potential for variable levels of expression, one

cannot speak in terms of absolutes. There may be a PATN gene present

that just doesn't show up on a given horse, but passed on to an

offspring that gives it all it needs to be maximized, it shows up on

that foal at a much higher level of expression.

Can a minimal have a hidden PATN like a non Characteristic ?

If a strong suppressing factor is present, a

horse might indeed be carrying one or more PATN genes that are not

being expressed anywhere near their normal level of expression.
 
The important words here are minimal expression and characteristics- one of the loudest Appies I have seen for a long time came from a solid stallion - with NO Appy pattern genes whatsoever - Native Shetland, NO Appy present at all, and a mare that had always been thought of as Solid. Did I see the foal and say this disproved all the theories?? No, I saw the foal and set out to find out how it could happen accepting the theories> The mare is out of an Appy- did I then say that this proved Appy could be "carried" No, I set out to prove it could happen accepting the theories as they stand. When we had a really good look at the mare- who is now three years older than when I first saw her she has obvious Appy characteristics. She has slight sclera, striped hooves and frosting on her rump. The pattern is partially obscured by the fact that she also has Pangaré. The foal is bay with a blanket with huge spots over it , with "halos" and then Leopard marking all over the rest on a bay base- quite spectacular!! He was also born this way. I'm sorry if Karen felt offended but, really, to show a black mare and state is is an Appy is very misleading- to show the same mare with the statement that you can't see it but she has Appy characteristics and throws Pintaloosas almost every time, would supply the credentials I was asking for. I really do not care how experienced people are , I will never take their word on something as controversial as this without questioning- why on earth should I?? And to say my horse is not Dun, when 24years of his life have been spent proving it time and time again is not only ridiculous it is laughable!! Dun is a simple dominant- if he is not Dun I would love to know not only how he sires Duns from non Dun mares, but what colour he actually is because he must be something pretty spectacular to be able to do what he is doing, colour wise!!

Right, that's it, I am off this thread
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I do apologise to the person who innocently started it but it's turning personal now, so I'm out of here, you can argue, or agree, among yourselves. Just remember, if you only ever hear opinions that you agree with, or that agree with you, your mind will always stay closed
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I have read no one elses answer yetbut to me a pintaloosa is a color not genetic

so a pintaloosa is a horse that shows both the appy and pinto pattern
 

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