What would you do?

[wildhorses]

A couple of years ago I gave a 2 year old gelding to some friends of mine for their kids. Nothing wrong with the horse, the kids just liked him, so gave him to them. They were not interested in the registration papers, so I just kept the papers. Last fall, they gave the horse to another gal as their kids had outgrown him, which I was perfectly fine with. Apparantly that person sold the horse to another person. The person that just bought the horse sent me an email telling me that they had bought the horse and wanted to know if I had registration papers and if I would send them to her.

What would you do in this situation? I fed the horse for 2 years, gelded the horse, paid for the care of the stallion and mare that produced this horse, and feel that registration papers are worth money. Why should this person benefit from selling a papered mini that I gave away? I want to know what other people's feelings about this are? Would you just give away the papers, would you ask for a dollar amount to release the papers? Curious peoples opinions as I have never had this situation before.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I personally would ask for some money for the papers. Probably what I paid to get the papers tho. Honestly tho this new person bought an unregistered miniature gelding. If she wanted one that was registered she should have looked for one that was registered. She already has bought this horse so IMO she is not entitled to those papers. Sorry not much help am I lol. No I would not just hand over the papers for free.

What I would have done and for future cases out there if anyone is offering a horse for free always put in writing that this horse is registered and if the buyer wants papers they have to pay this xx amount of money. That way if anyone ever comes to you for papers you can say well this is the same deal I gave the old owners and this will be the same deal I'll give to you.

 

[Songcatcher]

I cannot blame the buyer for wanting to get papers, but would blame them if they EXPECT to get them for nothing. Explain to them the situation and that the sellers sold them a horse that had been given to them. Papers are worth something and they should be paid for.

On the other hand, there are always two sides to every story. The gelding obviously will not be used for breeding. If they want papers to show him, and if he has your prefix on him, it may be very benefitial to you from an advertising standpoint to give them the papers so they can show him.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

You sold a grade pony for what it was worth that day ($0).

If these folks want a registered pony, that's fine. Charge them for what a registered pony should cost.

For me, I usually charge $350 and then I send in all of the paperwork taking the costs for transfer etc. out of that.

I would encourage you to not simply sign the transfer and send it ti the new owners, whether they pay you or not.

Dr Taylor

 

[HGFarm]

I would explain what the situation was when you rehomed the horse without the papers. I would also explain that his 'price' at that time reflected not having papers. And I would also tell them that if they would like papers, you will gladly pass them along for a reasonable fee- and include the cost of the gelding & paperwork in that fee.

Also, I would make SURE it is the same horse that they are asking for papers on. We had someone here try to pull a fast one by asking the breeder for papers on a horse, claiming it was under 34 but would never let them come and see the horse, and told the breeder to stay off their property!! Hmmmmm They would not even email a photo of the horse they had that supposedly came from this particular breeder.

 

[2minis4us]

I would ask money for the papers or keep them. You are not obligated to give them away since the horse you "gave" away was given away then sold. That was tacky.

I have given minis away before with papers and then see the person sell them

I know I have no control over that, it was my decision in the first place, but they could have at least offered the horse back to me first.

 

[Lizzie]

Interesting question. What are the laws connected with registration and the registering bodies in Minis? I have never had the problem in horses of any breed. However, the laws in dogs regarding 'papers' with the AKC are very clear. One cannot sell or give away a dog and ask for money for papers. Registration papers legally always belong to the AKC and cannot be sold. I know we have all seen ads for dogs stating one price and another price with papers. If the AKC is contacted regarding this, they will pull further registering privileges from the breeder. In Minis, do registration papers actually belong to the breeder or the registering body? Would asking money for them, be in violation of the law, if indeed they are owned by the registry?

I appreciate the dilemma of the OP in this. I suppose it might be a heads up to all of us, that even if a horse is given away, some contract should be signed stating that the horse is unregistered and no registration papers would be given. Checking out this new home carefully, the OP might discover they are good people who plan to show the gelding. If they are really serious, I think they should be glad to cover the cost of registering. Not sure if the OP should request money for the gelding process though. That was her decision, when still owning the horse.

Lizzie

 

[Jill]

I'd ask myself what is in the horse's best interest and then do what I felt was right.

 

[valshingle]

After reading Lizzie's post, I pulled out an AMHA registration paper. The certificate states: "This certificate is the property of The American Miniature Horse Association.....Upon transfer of this animal, a completed transfer of ownership form must(italics mine) be submitted with this certificate to the AMHA office ...."

Note that is says transfer, not purchase. In my opinion, the if the horse is registered then the papers go with the horse no matter whether the horse is given away or sold. And the papers do not 'belong' to anyone, but the AMHA.

I have given two horses away so far. One outgrew his AMHR papers and I turned them in to AMHR stating they were outgrown. The other was a foal that I never registered in the first place. I am planning on giving another horse away soon and I will make sure his papers go with him.

In my opinion, it costs nothing to the giver/seller to provide papers (unless they aren't current), so why should you charge for something that costs you nothing to give?

I also agree that the OP made the decision to geld the horse before giving it away and so should not charge these later people for a procedure they didn't request or have foreknowledge of.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I have given horses away and the papers always went with them. That said, if I give away a horse without his paperwork I would turn those in to the registry to be voided. Why keep the papers without owning the horse? And why sell/give away the horse without papers?

 

[Minimor]

This doesn't help you of course, but...

I wouldn't have actually given the horse away, I would have simply loaned him out and told the family that when they no longer wanted to keep him that he could be returned to me. Then, if they didn't do that but instead gave or sold him to someone else and someone down the line asked me for the papers I would simply say sorry, I loaned the horse out & the people broke our agreement by giving/selling him on--therefore I will not be giving the papers to anyone.

 

[Marty]

I'm looking at this differently probably because you all know I"m a weenie and a schmuk. I'm worried about this horse. That's what I care about not money and not papers right now. He's already changed hands too much. I would want to know why suddenly this new owner wants the papers. Probably to flip him yet for more money. I'd like you to investigate carefully and try to find out what the real plans for this horse is. And if in fact he is being flipped again, why not bring this little guy back home? Then you can start over and sell him to a family with his papers that will appreciate him.

 

[dgrminis]

There are always multiple stories in a case like this... The 2nd people may have bought the horse and not been given the horse (unless you know for sure no money changed hands) and so they may have sold him etc. But regardless he was theirs at that point to sell or give away. And they obviously told the new owners where he came from and that he could have papers or they would have had no way of knowing to contact you. So they may have purchased him hoping that he would have papers. But ignoring all the "what ifs" and "buts" in this situation. I would say to find out why the new owners want the papers - if they just want to sell him again as Marty says then I would offer to buy him back and you can do as you choose but maybe they want to show or maybe they just want him to have his papers to know more about him and his background...

Just my personal opinion but I am also one of the people that feel the papers belong to the horse and I would not sell or give-a-way a horse without its papers if it had them. When I drop the price on a horse or even offer to give it away I do so with the knowledge that I have spent "x" amount and that I may not be getting anything for it (in the case of a give-a-way).

Now on the matter of whether to charge for them -- if you already have the papers in hand then you had paid for them before he was given away in the first place I would say that if it where me I would NOT charge the new owner for them -- in this case you would have already spent that money to have him papered before you choose to let him go for no cost. On the other hand if you do not already have the papers and would have to send in and pay late fees, etc. then by all means I would expect the new owners to pay the cost of the papers to receive them.

Just my 2 cents and in todays economy that probably means I owe you a penny just for reading

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

The papers go with the horse imho. This gelding has been in too many homes to quickly, and unregistered he's likely to continue that.

I would definitely verify he's the correct horse, and find out what they're planning to do with him. You can also ask as a courtesy from the new owner, should they sell to notify you.

If I've paid for the papers, they go with the horse - I've given horses away over the years and they go with the horses regardless. If I hadn't registered him/her, it costs me zero to give them the paperwork to have them registered the horse. I'd rather have horses out there that I've raised/owned with registration paperwork.

As for being 'out money', sometimes you sell and make a profit, some times you don't. End of the day I'm not selling cars, and always try to work for the best interest of my horses.

 

[frostedpineminis]

I would charge them a decent price for a registered gelding, you never know if they are just trying to increase the sales value of him or not. Also if I would ever give a horse away I would make them sign a contract that in the event they have to give up the horse that they offer it back to you first, even if they have a new place for it and that is fine with you, then it is your choice to make the new place sign a contract as well if that is the way you want. Just a suggestion as I think that deters the selling of said horse as obviously the people that sold the horse told them it was registerable and mentioned your name as the breeder.

 

[Cavallini Farms]

I believe the papers should stay with the horse. Its his/her history, identity, age verification, etc and in my opinion its just the right thing to do for the horse.

If it were me, I'd give them the papers.

 

[Jacki]

A couple of years ago I gave a 2 year old gelding to some friends of mine for their kids. Nothing wrong with the horse, the kids just liked him, so gave him to them. They were not interested in the registration papers, so I just kept the papers. Last fall, they gave the horse to another gal as their kids had outgrown him, which I was perfectly fine with. Apparantly that person sold the horse to another person. The person that just bought the horse sent me an email telling me that they had bought the horse and wanted to know if I had registration papers and if I would send them to her.

What would you do in this situation? I fed the horse for 2 years, gelded the horse, paid for the care of the stallion and mare that produced this horse, and feel that registration papers are worth money. Why should this person benefit from selling a papered mini that I gave away? I want to know what other people's feelings about this are? Would you just give away the papers, would you ask for a dollar amount to release the papers? Curious peoples opinions as I have never had this situation before.

I don't disagree with those who suggest providing the papers at a cost, perfectly acceptable in my book. Another thing to consider though, as breeders we all should accept some personal responsibility for the well being of animals we produce. You may want to consider if this gelding will have a better quality of life if the current owner has his registration papers. Could he become a well loved and cared for show gelding? Could he spend many years with this new owner enjoying his company and paying him back with the excellent care that we all give our show horses? A set of papers that you have already paid for could impact this geldings life in a positive way. You are the one who knows the gelding and the situation the best and I'm sure you'll make the best decision you can, Best of luck!

Jacki Loomis

 

[Gilly]

"I would charge them a decent price for a registered gelding, you never know if they are just trying to increase the sales value of him or not. Also if I would ever give a horse away I would make them sign a contract that in the event they have to give up the horse that they offer it back to you first, even if they have a new place for it and that is fine with you, then it is your choice to make the new place sign a contract as well if that is the way you want. Just a suggestion as I think that deters the selling of said horse as obviously the people that sold the horse told them it was registerable and mentioned your name as the breeder. "

I think the registration papers should always go with the horse. Surely it will give the horse a better chance of a good home in the future if it has that added benefit of being registered. I think it was dishonourable of the person you passed the horse on to initially not to offer it back to you first, but that is history now. I would be inclined never to give away a horse for free. I feel there is a mentality or perception sometimes that if something is free then it has less value than something that is paid for - even if it is just a minimal, token cost.

I have bought a horse with a contract specifying that I must give the seller first right of refusal should I ever decided to on-sell. That is fine with me and I will certainly honour that contract in the unlikely event that I ever chose to sell him on. I may have misunderstood your comment, but if the previous owner declined to exercise their first right of refusal, then they have no right to dictate to whoever I sell to that they have first right of refusal again in the future. If a previous owner wants rights or control over the future of a horse then they would have to buy the horse back and their agreement would be with whoever they sell on to.

 

[Wings]

I'm another who thinks the papers belong to the horse. In this case I'd want to confirm it is the same horse and perhaps the intentions of the current owner. Even if they do intend on flipping him ask yourself are his chances better if registered and with papers?

 

[Mareish Mom]

I think the papers belong with the horse. I hate it when registered horses become separated from their papers. Papers don't guarantee a good life for a horse but I do think they help them to keep their value and not end up in a killer feedlot. If you are in a position to reconnect a horse with his papers I think you should. It's the right thing to do for the HORSE. I once sold a Quarter horse with his papers, which were subsequently lost when he was resold. He ended up with a great 12 year old girl whom I was able to transfer his papers over to since the person I had sold him to never put in for them. She ended up showing him at the regional level, which she wouldn't have been able to do without his registration. I did not charge her any money for the papers, it didn't cost me anything to give them to her, she is the one who had to pay the AQHA for transfer fees. I am currently trying to track down papers for the mini I bought (rescued). Not because I want to sell her or breed her or show her, but because she is a beautiful 15 year old registered horse that ended up in trader hands and lost her papers. I think she should have them!