Whip Etiquette - what if??

[Margo_C-T]

I did not vote in the poll, as there was no choice of the proper manner even given. However, Al is right; 45 and 45.

"Sad" is an understatement...instead of proposing silly things like limiting the length of the whip(an idea which I suspect is TOTALLY misplaced, as many mini Breed ring drivers use little short dressage whips anyway, which are essentially totally useless for proper use in driving-and will only penalize the few who have proper driving whips), the mini Breed organizations should just quit requiring people to carry whips, period. They are almost NEVER properly used (or used at all, for that matter) in the mini Breed show ring anyway...why bother to say they are 'required'?

Just another reminder of why I am so glad not to be in the mini breed show driving ring any longer! Too many 'requirements' that have NOTHING to do with good driving, and too much unsportsmanlike behavior, too often. (The 'continuous' and loud clucking, hissing, 'kissy' sounds, etc. are only ONE aspect of it--but yes, one of the MOST irritating, and one that can greatly interfere with others' horses.) Been there, encountered that.... but no more!

Margo

 

[CheyAut]

Little Bits, the purpose of a whip isn't just to get a horse to go. In fact, I NEVER use the whip with my Chili to get him to do upward transitions or to go faster (I can't say the same for my Fell, he gets VEEERY lazy sometimes and needs a wake up call lol! I don't HIT him though, I just tap). Chili relies completely on voice/sounds. HOWEVER, the whip IS an aid. It is used for bending, ect. Because of this, it needs to reach further than just the butt.

I will also add that I do not (yet) drive in breed shows. I drive mainly in combined driving events (where we do dressage!) as well as a mini horse drill team and pleasure driving shows. Bending is important for my horses

 

[~Lisa~]

I"Sad" is an understatement...instead of proposing silly things like limiting the length of the whip(an idea which I suspect is TOTALLY misplaced, as many mini Breed ring drivers use little short dressage whips anyway, which are essentially totally useless for proper use in driving-and will only penalize the few who have proper driving whips), the mini Breed organizations should just quit requiring people to carry whips, period. Margo

Actually it is not required to carry a whip in AMHR

While I see some differences frankly it is a bit irratating to say the least to keep hearing from a few how breed drivers just simply are uneducated, clueless and hav no idea what they are doing when it comes to driving. Sorry just not reality.

While I am involved in ADS clubs thankfully they do not have that attitude and they realize a good driver is a good driver be it in the breed ring of any breed or the ADS ring

As shocking as it may seem there are plenty of good, experienced drivers out there in the mini show rings and there are equally as many green and clueless drivers attempting to do ADS driving

Just driving in a breed ring or ADS ring does not make you experienced or not

 

[Boinky]

protests should be lodged at nationals (or any show taped) if this behavior is taped and disipline rendered..simple as that.. rule should not be on whip length but for proper behavior and concequences! should be penalized heavily and enforced plain and simple.

i think we've all accidently cut someone off etc, however i have seen people blatantly cutting others off or very unsafe horses being shown that everyone know's shouldn't be there.. just shouldn't be allowed.

 

[susanne]

...cutting back in abruptly when passing, passing FAR too closely or driving up on the person from behind FAR too closely just to mention a few. To have to resort to driving in such an irresponsible manner makes me think they really shouldn't be driving in the first place. Pretty pathetic!

Sounds like what I see every day out on the highway. Rude, ignorant, inconsiderate drivers are the same everywhere; how silly to expect them to suddenly behave in the show ring...Sad and pathetic is right!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I find it ironic that the smallest breed has whips 8 feet long with snappers 4 feet long. It seems almost silly to me. If the whip is supposed to be a horse que then why is there a need to have a whip that can touch a horses ears? Maybe the registries should follow suit and require that whips to be a certain length (much shorter in my opinion just bcause it looks so silly) unless they already do that, but are not following through. I personally know of a harness driver who used a jumping bat and was called in because his whip was to short. That was so crazy. A simple tap on the butt should be enough. I personally don't really like whips.

The judge was every bit as correct to call in the driver with a bat as he would have been to call in someone whose whip was too long. The whip should reach no further forward than the shoulder, period. It should not be up by the horse's ears (not sure where you saw that) and certainly should not be so short that it only hits the butt. Using it to smack the horse on the butt is NOT what the whip is correctly used for in driving. As others have said, it is used to replace the driver's legs in asking for bend and also, yes, for going forward. You flick the lash on the saddle area in combination with voice cues to encourage impulsion.

the mini Breed organizations should just quit requiring people to carry whips, period. They are almost NEVER properly used (or used at all, for that matter) in the mini Breed show ring anyway...why bother to say they are 'required'? Just another reminder of why I am so glad not to be in the mini breed show driving ring any longer! Too many 'requirements' that have NOTHING to do with good driving...

So why get rid of the one requirement that DOES have something to do with good driving?

While I see some differences frankly it is a bit irratating to say the least to keep hearing from a few how breed drivers just simply are uneducated, clueless and hav no idea what they are doing when it comes to driving. Sorry just not reality.While I am involved in ADS clubs thankfully they do not have that attitude and they realize a good driver is a good driver be it in the breed ring of any breed or the ADS ring

As shocking as it may seem there are plenty of good, experienced drivers out there in the mini show rings and there are equally as many green and clueless drivers attempting to do ADS driving

Just driving in a breed ring or ADS ring does not make you experienced or not

I understand your frustration and agree completely, there are many good drivers in the breed ring and there are definitely some idiots in other driving fields. As long as the person approaches their driving with a learning attitude I will respect them. It's those people who are convinced they know everything while flauting every rule of sensible, safe driving and making their horses miserable that really bother me and I do tend to see more of those in the breed ring for whatever reason. Perhaps it's because there is no provision for driver education, no standard principles for what constitutes "good driving." For better or for worse, the world of tradition-based carriage driving does have those principles while the breed ring of any breed is, and has always been, shaped by what wins. That's the nature of the beast. We all know horses can be pushed too young, too fast, and that results in dangerous situations when a cart is involved. I refuse to extend the accolade of "horseman" to such a person regardless of how much they win or what discipline they ride or drive, and that means I tend to believe there is less horsemanship in the breed ring than perhaps in other sports. The horses should always come first.

Just my opinion, and I hope I will always be open-minded enough to respect good horsemen who do things differently than I do! I also compete in the breed ring and am proud of my successes there as well as in combined driving.

Leia

 

[Minimor]

the mini Breed organizations should just quit requiring people to carry whips, period. They are almost NEVER properly used (or used at all, for that matter) in the mini Breed show ring anyway...why bother to say they are 'required'? Just another reminder of why I am so glad not to be in the mini breed show driving ring any longer! Too many 'requirements' that have NOTHING to do with good driving...

So why get rid of the one requirement that DOES have something to do with good driving?

that's just the question I was going to ask!

 

[Margo_C-T]

...Because there is ABSOLUTELY NO requirement for knowing how to properly use, or 'use', period, the whip!! Why on EARTH require an item that also 'must' require one to learn its proper, safe, and competent use, JUST for 'appearance sake'?????-- which is exactly what the situation currently is, at least in the AMHA rail driving ring (I only showed AMHR once, saw little if any difference in the approach or obvious 'issues', so am not speaking to that...although I believe they are 'better off' without a 'requirement' for a whip...makes better sense, to me, than 'requiring' such an item but without any corollary requirement of education in its proper use...

Anyone who would dare to in any way 'affect' my horse in the ring with their whip had best be prepared to lose some skin...perhaps if some 'requirement' for knowing how to properly and ethically utilize the whip would help to prevent some of the bad behavior(along with strict and real penalties for same...)?

As to true horsemen? IMO, they are easy to recognize, but only when you are one. Key is Leia's very correct statement that the horse should ALWAYS come first. I remain proud of my accomplishments in the breed ring(and not just minis), too--but I became REALLY TIRED of what increasingly 'goes on' there(and seems increasingly unquestioned), so I find my pleasure with my horses in other places now, and have not a MOMENT of regret in doing so.

Unless and until proper education goes along with the 'requirement' that rail ring drivers 'have' a whip 'onboard', I stand by my position, 100%.

Margo

 

[hobbyhorse23]

We'll have to agree to disagree, Margo.

No one is required to learn the correct and humane use of checks or any other driving equipment either, so if that's the case then those things should be optional too. It's a nice thought, but it isn't going to happen! I'd rather see rules in place, no matter how archaic, that at least give a nod to driving's roots.

Leia

 

[Genie]

I thought it was to be held at a slight angle, maybe at 10 o'clock, as Milo said.

I was driving in June in a show, and there was a competitor driving like a maniac, and almost catching my wheel.

In my opinion the judge should have "excused" her from the class. The judge did tell her to slow down, but she was really acting in a dangerous manner.

If I was ever to be in a class with her again, I would get a longer whip to hold well off to my passing side to avoid this competior who is so intent on winning she doesn't care what she does.

 

[ruffian]

I thought it was to be held at a slight angle, maybe at 10 o'clock, as Milo said.
I was driving in June in a show, and there was a competitor driving like a maniac, and almost catching my wheel.

In my opinion the judge should have "excused" her from the class. The judge did tell her to slow down, but she was really acting in a dangerous manner.

If I was ever to be in a class with her again, I would get a longer whip to hold well off to my passing side to avoid this competior who is so intent on winning she doesn't care what she does.

This is a perfect reason to Protest not get revenge!!

 

[Mr.T]

Does anyone know a judge who judges driving that could put there input in on this topic. I think it might benefit everyone to hear what a judge thinks?

personally I think the people who purposefully run into another horse, or tap another horse, etc should get some sort of deduction and the victim should not get a fault.

 

[Genie]

I thought it was to be held at a slight angle, maybe at 10 o'clock, as Milo said.
I was driving in June in a show, and there was a competitor driving like a maniac, and almost catching my wheel.

In my opinion the judge should have "excused" her from the class. The judge did tell her to slow down, but she was really acting in a dangerous manner.

If I was ever to be in a class with her again, I would get a longer whip to hold well off to my passing side to avoid this competior who is so intent on winning she doesn't care what she does.

This is a perfect reason to Protest not get revenge!!

Not revenge....self defense!

 

[disneyhorse]

I have never had an issue with other exhibitors interferring with their whips. And most that I've seen, do carry and use their whips fairly effectively.

Mini breed ring driving in general, tends to be a bit "ignorant" to some stuff... people just copy other "fads" they see and go from there. Lots of things bug me, like whips that are too short, traces wrapped multiple times around the shafts, ill-fitting harness, hitching horses tied up, and other such stuff.

However, I don't think that people genuinely try to be ignorant or mean. I think it's the exception, not the rule, and I don't have the venom that Margo has for the newbies.

As to how I carry the whip... I try to hold my whip straight up at a 90 degree angle in the breed ring. I think it just "looks" nicer and I don't think the whip should be "used" for any cues if possible in the breed ring, as we really aren't asking the horses to bend or anything, just walk and trot

In driving obstacle and other driving venues I'd carry my whip more at a 45 degree angle, so there is less motion required to use the whip for cues. Sort of like dressage, you should not be drawing attention to you by swinging the whip, and the more upright it is held, the further up and down you have to swing it. But again, in the breed ring, most exhibitors will only apply the whip to a lazy horse if the judge isn't looking their way. Just my own opinion.

As to what Judges do, I've seen many things. Remember, the judge cannot see everything that happens in the ring, and most exhibitors ARE constantly aware if the judge is looking their way or not.

I have to say, MOST judges are VERY kind and helpful and often will speak to the driving exhibitors at the local shows in the lineup. I have had MANY comment to me about harness fit, horse fitness, and other advice where they offer their opinion.

If you DO have a problem, speak with the Steward. That's what they are there for.

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

Double post.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

As to how I carry the whip... I try to hold my whip straight up at a 90 degree angle in the breed ring. I think it just "looks" nicer and I don't think the whip should be "used" for any cues if possible in the breed ring, as we really aren't asking the horses to bend or anything, just walk and trot

In driving obstacle and other driving venues I'd carry my whip more at a 45 degree angle, so there is less motion required to use the whip for cues. Sort of like dressage, you should not be drawing attention to you by swinging the whip, and the more upright it is held, the further up and down you have to swing it. But again, in the breed ring, most exhibitors will only apply the whip to a lazy horse if the judge isn't looking their way. Just my own opinion.

Good points and reasoning, Andrea. Personally, the main reason I continue to ask my horse to bend in ring classes is because A) Kody is too darn smart and if I let him get away with counterbending once, he'll do it automatically when it does count, and B) with almost all of our NW driving events being held in June and July, every breed show I attend is sandwiched between two CDE's.

It's already confusing for my horse to alternate harness styles every single week for two months, I don't want to make it worse by also changing how I drive him.

Obviously this does not apply for most people, so for those driving strictly in the breed ring I think your way is logical and appropriate.

Leia