Who attended the Greencastle Sale

[zoey829]

Now that the sale is over can anyone share the prices?? I would also like to know what you bought!!!

 

[Jean_B]

I sincerely hope that no one posts the prices....making it very clear that this is only my opinion.....but in my opinion it is posting these prices that hurts the industry as a whole.

An auction is a SALE...it's where buyers go to get the best deal possible and should in no way be a reflection of the industry as a whole. Yes, some awesome horses have come out of these consignment sales, but posting prices here...again...IN MY OPINION is a disservice to the entire industry. Consignment sales serve a very real need, but as far as I'm concerned, the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.

OK folks - go ahead and flame away! I've got my big girl panties on and can deal with it.

 

[disneyhorse]

I am disappointed at the recent uproar over posted auction/sale prices... but I personally don't see the harm in it.

Although yes, the market is definitely DOWN... hopefully it will entice more people to go to the auctions/sales in the future to get these "diamonds in the rough." At such sales, prices are driven by the number of people bidding. Few people means less competition for bids raising prices.

Andrea

 

[Minimor]

I fail to see how it helps the market any to hide low prices from sales. Pretending that the market is great and prices are staying up there doesn't make it so. Truth is, sales where horses sell for low prices DO affect the market, regardless if prices get posted or not. If they don't get posted they get e-mailed around anyway, so it makes little difference if they do or don't get posted here.

Nobody post sale prices so that everyone can pretend that the market is great and they can feel justified in continuing to mass produce foals. Good plan.

 

[Flaxenacres]

Leah, I tried to send you a message but your box is full. Lorie

 

[tagalong]

I am disappointed at the recent uproar over posted auction/sale prices... but I personally don't see the harm in it.

That's because there is no harm in it - IMO. Does it hurt the industry? No. What hurts is overbreeding and lots of low-caliber minis flooding the auction marts. A few months ago I went to a local horse sale and there was a pen of 10 minis who ended up selling for about $50 each. The poor things were not much to look at and whoever bred them just decided to dump them - I hope they found loving homes.

As I said in the other thread - making the prices a super big secret only suggests that you are trying to hide something. The prices get around anyway. Quality horses can be bought for very little - if you know what you are looking at. Similarly, low quality horses may sell for more than they should (especially if they are an interesting or loud colour). And that applies to all breeds. But pretending that low prices do not happen fools no one. And if people think they can buy a decent horse for not too much money - that is more incentive to buy, isn't it?

the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.

...and everyone else at the sale/auction taking notes (as many of us do) and everyone in the parking lot coming and going and everyone all those people talked to and those people talking to others.... and everyone reading the website of that sale if prices are posted or watching it online if that is done...

A private sale is just that - private. But IMO trying to suppress or hide the prices from a public sale is an exercise in futility...

Although yes, the market is definitely DOWN... hopefully it will entice more people to go to the auctions/sales in the future to get these "diamonds in the rough." At such sales, prices are driven by the number of people bidding. Few people means less competition for bids raising prices.

Exactly right.

 

[Mona]

I agree with those who want the prices posted. We have always done so in the past, when many of us could only dream of being fortunate enough to have the money to pay that much for a horse, and now just because prices are down, it is suddenly becoming a sin or a disservice to the industry to post them. I strongly disagree and feel we SHOULD keep posting results, as we at least we can then can see the industry's strong and weak times. Just like a marriage with a strong foundation..."for better or for worse".

 

[zoey829]

I just like to see is sale price are going up, what quality and I LOVE it when a good deal can be had! I did miss seeing everyone but I ususally dont buy at the sale but I love the jokes, good times and tack!

 

[bevann]

I agree that I would like to see sale prices posted.Years ago when we had Standardbreds some of the various sales even posted prices in the industry magazines, Hoof Beats was one of those.Word gets around even if not on the internet.IMO people should cut WAAAY back on breeding unless planning to keep something for yourself or have a buyer.Chances Mini Horse Rescue has lots of pets and most horse rescues are overloaded and it doesn't look to get better any time soon.too many people have no thought for the well being of the animal and just ump them anywhere they can.

 

[eagles ring farm]

We were there but had sold the Jerald cart we were going to take so decided to go look anyway since we already had hotel reservations so just stayed for the beginning of the tack and had to hit the road to pick up our yearling mare at the trainers in MD. Visited with friends there and left

So can't tell you anything about prices, but there were some nice horses. And I thought a big crowd

although have never been to Greencastle before maybe it was just the normal size crowd.

 

[Littleum]

the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.

Aren't auction results a matter of public record in many states? As in there is no expectation of privacy?

(I may be wrong. I've always been under the impression that to prevent bidding shenningans, transparency is required)

 

[ruffian]

I don't think posting prices is wrong IMO. They are what they are. Some are going to be high, some are going to be low.

I believe the Thoroughbred and/or standardbred horses prices are put on their records every time they are sold.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I have to agree with the group that doesn't think they should be posted. My reasons are that so many people read this forum. Several of them are just thinking of buying a mini but surely will someday. But by reading low prices they develop a mindset that that is all a mini is worth. They really don't understand the rest of the story such as quality, breeders overstock, etc...., just that is how much money that it takes to buy a mare, filly, colt or stallion. Anyway I feel it is demeaning to the breed to keep posting these prices as it does create a mindset for future buyers. Also, why at this point does it really matter anyway? If you were there and got a great deal, wonderful, but how will it change any of our lives to know what they sold for? Oh well, gonna get flamed for sure, but don't really care as it is only my personal opinion. I also know this is going down the road of "overbreeding" again. Is this a problem? certainly.....Are we ever gonna stop it? never, but we consistently beat that dead horse.

 

[tagalong]

I believe the Thoroughbred and/or standardbred horses prices are put on their records every time they are sold.

Yes, they are.

Thus we know that Seattle Slew sold for the bargain price of $17,500.

And yet The Green Monkey sold for $16,000,000 as a yearling and was a complete failure on the track.

And reproductive histories are public for all mares sold. In a TB or STB sales catalogue it will tell you that Mare #156 was barren this year and sells open. In 2008 she slipped a filly by Stallion XXX. 2007 - filly by Stallion X. 2006 - barren. 2005 - slipped colt by Stallion XX. It will also be noted how many foals went on to race and if they were successful in even the smallest way.

No secrets.

$16,000,000 for a TB... all the way down to TBs being dumped at the auction mart because they were not racing well... and maybe selling for $500. Or much less.

Anyway I feel it is demeaning to the breed to keep posting these prices as it does create a mindset for future buyers.

How is it demeaning to the breed to post sale prices as every other breed does? There are always highs and lows as interest rises and falls in any breed... someone reading any prices posted on this forum is not going to draw any conclusion from them other than prices may vary wildy. And that... is true. And they may feel that they might get a quality horse for a bargain price - which may also be true. Thus they will want to attend The Mini Sale and spend money... and I guess I cannot see where that is a bad thing.

Anyone who is going to have a mindset worth worrying about likely already has one - reinforced by the sad minis going through the auction marts for $50 or less. Right next to the well broke QHs selling for only $250.

I guess I feel strongly about this as I have worked with a variety of breeds and disciplines for over 20 years - and in all that time I have never heard any suggestions or concerns that winning bids from an open/public sale/auction should be repressed/secret/censored... until now.

And I hope that LB does not make it a policy...

 

[coopermini]

We were there again at the sale. crowd seemed a bit smaller than past years. Horse numbers were down. 130 plus 10 driving and some mini donkeys. We were there for the tack sale. Did get a "B" harness I needed and a cart for friends. Bought a bunch of stuff from Nick again. Prices were down on what we saw. Some of the better known breeders brought some nice minis but many of the buyers didn't seem to know a good pedigree and a good horse from a very mediocore one. Some people got some very good buys for sure.

Always nice to visit with some old freinds every year at the sale.

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

I'm still hoping to see the prices, and want for the people that don't breed for "quality" to see the prices and say "why should I bother"! I'm honestly hoping alot less horses will get bred when people see the prices.

 

[Arion Mgmt]

I think posting prices from a public auction is something that should be done, for all horse breeds, after the fact.

I know I didnt say this clearly in the other thread but I do actually think all prices of public auctions are fair game. However......Unfortunately as was stated earlier in the case of race horse breeds, you are given ALL PERTINENT information to make an informed buy at those auctions, even a vet health exam with Xrays and repro exam is waiting in the records room to be viewed. Infact you know if it has ever been in another auction and the salling prices or no sale bids on the horse.

Our little miniature horse industry is FAR FROM that. This is a PRIME example as to why there are so many ways someone gets taken for a ride at miniature horse auctions. It is pathetic and disgraceful, infact it is technically fraud by the consignor unless the sale is a "meat sale", that is why all sales managers have sales terms and conditions.

What I DONT agree with is the use of the internet for watching and buying horses at these kinds of sales due to what I stated above. A vast majority of the viewers, buyers or potential new buyers and enthusiasts that would watch it from all over the world get the absolute wrong idea of real industry pricing and value and market trends. That is what is hurting the private sales even more than our tanking economy and dollar.

Also, SINCE there is no open book of information of a broodmare or stallion, ie fertility, reproductive status or produce show records, or true health of a horse ( if they have had a colic surgery or TWO for instance) you might as well go play the lottery with that money.

This is one of the reasons LKF started the Oktoberfest, we knew that a lower end sale CAN be worthwhile to all.....seller AND buyer IF done right and honest. No different than when LKF put on the Heritage sale, there was a silent auction section, (this was even separate from the gelding incentive section) where horses of various situations were available for what they were for........those willing to take a wonderful pet home.

Yes overstock goes to these sales we are talking about as well, but also there are the career horses, I am sure any of you that have watched these sales for more than one year have seen the large number of career sale horses.

Why in the world a sale manager #1 would continue to put the same horse or horses in a sale year after year, OR # 2 Continually accept career sale horses, we as buyers or consignors know EXACTLY why those horses have seen all the auction sites........there is something wrong with it, or someone is still actually thinking they can pinhook a profit off of it. Yet sometimes those horses get bought by you guessed it, inexperienced or even worse, overseas buyer that has not a clue what is going on in our industry here in the states and our lack of open records.

I have had NUMEROUS international clients of mine ask me why is the US still putting soo many of these sales on, even worse on the internet. They say it is starting to hurt THEIR private sales in THEIR country. Because now their new buyers can go online and get a $200 horse from the US and only spend $5000 or MORE to get it to their country, and save Thousands of dollars by not buying privately. Now how intelligent is that!?!?!?!? You cant fix stupidity.

Yet those same buyers then complain, (and I have had them complain to me that their horse they bought has something wrong with it or isnt good enough for their studbook and is worthless in their country). Well I tell them that was their choice and then they complain that WE (the auctions) should be more restrictive.

Anyways, the sales will continue to be online, and you will continue to see a vast majority of the owners in this breed private sales decline in number and price until the majority in the industry demands a change in something.

John Eberth

 

[ropenride]

I believe that prices at public auctions should be posted. Does a low price indicate that that is all the horse is worth? NO!!!! ANYTHING (horse, car, silver flatware, furniture) IS ONLY WORTH WHAT THAT PERSON IS WILLING TO PAY THAT DAY!!!!!

I price my horses (big and mini) according to what I think they're worth....if the potential buyer doesn't agree with that then they either try to dicker or leave. There are other fish in the sea. If too many potential buyers leave, then I will probably rethink what I believe my horse to be worth, otherwise, here's the price.

As for auctions....if I'm BUYING and see horses I like at Auction A and Auction B but, having limited funds I can only potentially buy at one auction, I will attend the auction that had the lowest prices on good horses previously. Hhhhmmmmmm...and so does everyone else, so the prices go UP this year!

If I'm SELLING I will look at the auction company and their performance over time, NOT just the last sale, to get a feel for how their market generally runs.

It doesn't matter what you're buying or selling, economics will always prevail......the law of supply and demand.

 

[bevann]

John I do so agree with your comments.Mini buyers especially Newbies are often likely to get burned at many auctions.It is so sad because many of them could become an asset to our breed instead they are many times turned off due to bad sale experiences.There are people who get lucky at auctions, but many more get badly burned.I love the comments about the CAREER SALE horses and the comments about stupidity.

 

[Robin]

I will Second John's post!

For years and years I have kept auction catalogs from sales I have attended - as reference for my own behalf. People used to call me and I would read to them over the phone the prices for their records. I did not keep them to blast them all over the world or degrade someone's sale or horses for what they did or did not bring. I do believe they are public record- and I have never ever refused to tell someone what a horse brought at one of our sales when asked. The problem I have is that people see horses sell for $X price in a alist online and then decide for themselves that either the farm raises poor quality, that the horse must have been no good or that the industry is in the tank and not to invest. If I have had 1, I have had 50 overseas buyers ask me to lower prices on our good show stock because they have seen a "similar" horse at auction bring only $500 and they basically threated me that they are going to go buy some place else. I say- have at it. When you buy a horse - regardless of auction or private- you should ask for more than just the horse standing on 4 legs. When someone buys a horse from us (LKF)- auction or not- WE stand behind it. We give you the honest breakdown of the animal and if we sell it with guarantees- we are here to back them up. However- it is also common knowledge that unless other wise stated- a horse sells AS IS thru most auctions. That is what people don't put into those prices- no guarantees (unless otherwise stated), no records, no experience to help guide you or answer your questions. That is why basing an industry or market on auction prices is not a good gage for the industry. Unless you were there, unless you saw the horse, unless you spoke with the owner, you cannot fairly judge whether the market is down, someone got a great buy, the horse was crap or the sale management is to blame for not having the weather be nice enough, good enough free food and free taxi service!!!.

I used this analogy to someone the other day.... If I go into Walmart and see a toy my son wants at full price- do I degrade and devalue the "new" toy if I buy it 2 months later at clearance price? No! Does my son think any less of it- No! So why should a horse be considered worth less when the asking price was $4,000 and at a one day sale- it was bought for $400? Does it mean it is not the same horse? Does it mean they are over breeding? Is Walmart hurting the toy industry by having a one day clearance sale to make room to stock new items? No!

Another thought- people need to understand that almost all miniature auctions are consignor auctions- not personal farm auctions as the Sale of a Lifetime, the first Reece sale or the old NFC sale's once were. So to slam a particluar farm for hosting a sale or a particular person for managing a sale just shows ignorance- as is very typical here on LB and other forums when sale prices are listed. We as sale management do our very best to get the best horses for the best reserves, from the most reputable people we can to do business with. But even then, we are expecting professionalism on the other side and cannot be held accountable for them if they have misrepresented to us as well. What the horses bring is up to the buyers and bidders- not the consignors or sale management. With one exception- advertising to get the buyers actually there to bid.

Again- as John stated- until we #1 are a real breed and #2 want to promote and market as such and be equal to other long standing breeds, we should not try to compare our miniatures to them. It is not a fair comparison. There most certainly are ways that we should strive to be like them and would be easy for our industry to convert or absorb other practices, but if you have been in this inudstry long- you will find out our association/registry (AMHA in particular) is constantly trying to re-invent the wheel. In other words, there are some huge major issues in the miniauture industry and it isn't just "over breeding".

Let me ask a question that I am sure will fuel a few....... Since LKF sold a son of a World Grand Champion stallion that has World Champion show potential for $400., will that make those who are breeding $400 horses with no pedigree, that are not show quality, stop breeding? The answer is NO- #1- some people do not know horse conformation and quality and breed anyway, #2. Some people breed their pets for their own enjoyment , #3. Some people think $400 for an animal is a heck of a lot of money and are proud to be able to sell their product for that, #4- what right do we have to tell other's they shouldn't breed their horses? There is really no way to control the population of animals (unless the govt starts to tax us all on each one- sshhhh don't tell them)- however the registry's can control the population of the "registered" animals. But why would they limit it? They are in the business to make money and supply a service-right?

The miniature industry is coming to a place in time much like all older animal breeds. You have the pet/non registered level, you have the breeding stock level and you have the show level. We are no longer and "exotic breed". It is not uncommon for breeding stock to lower in value to pet stock when the economy is down. And because we do not have a "meat" level- we can not compare our market to many other animal breeds. We are more along the dog/cat comparisons. The "overstock" of miniatures is at this point now. It is definetly a buyers market if you are looking at getting started. I wish we had the pasture space to invest in some more broodmares- as I have seen several exceptional ones sell for less than their "true" market value should be.

Anyway- back to the topic- posting sale prices- if you wish them to be listed- I would prefer to see them be e-mailed out privately - to eliminate speculation, accusations, etc. The internet has been a wonderful gift, but at the same time a huge detriment. It is convienent but often not accurate. I had severla phone buyers see the Oktoberfest list and call in a apanic becuase the list showed they paid more for a horse than they agreed to- since they were not here to sign. I had to answer all their questions- verfiy their purchases, etc. This took hours and also caused headaches and stress for no good reason. I also saw horses that were listed as "sold" that did not sell. I think if the sale prices are posted- it should only come from the Sale management or from the purchasers of individual horses that want to share that information. Again- another way to eliminate incorrect data. What good is having the information if it is not correct?

Just my thoughts- Robin-LKF