Why are we blind to serious conformation faults?

[Leeana]

Which is where I am at - I think people too get to caught up on the head/neck and topline. There is a lot more too then legs. I have tried to take general conformation into mind when buying my breeding horses, I look at my broodmares and they are put together very solid in the body and I have had to sacrafice just a bit in the head to get good conformation broodmares...as I would take a well conformed broodmare with just a touch less exotic head. However, you look at their breeding, there is not a bad headed pony in there.

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[Eagle]

Yes I must admit it is very easy for the amateur breeders in America cos anyone can by a horse and breed just because they can. I also find it gob smacking that judges would award a horse that has serious faults

This is why Mini's are not taken serious by anyone in the big world.

Here things are much harder. To breed you need to have a breeders licence and to get it you must have qualifications. Once you have had your property checked for size and cleaning facilities you then have to buy a stallion that is approved. I get mine from Holland and they were all approved by NMPRS (Netherlands mini pony registered studbook) To be approved for life they get tested at 3 years, 4years and then 5 years, if they are still up to standard then they are approved. Saying this it doesn't mean that you don't get the idiots breeding cos we do but the foals can't have any papers at all and therefore can't have a microchip, these foals are worth nothing.

I would love to buy some horses from the USA cos many of your horses are beautiful but they are not respected here as they have no breeding papers.

I had a phone call last month from a guy who had bought 2 stallions and a few mares and had them shipped over, he had spent a fortune but now he was trying to get me to buy them at a silly price, no one had told him that the stallions were not approved and therefore could not breed, I felt very sorry for him and the stallions were stunning too.

I don't think it is down to the breeder to decide who is good and who is bad it should be done by an approved authority but in order to do this the judges should do some theory on confirmation.

JMHO

 

[rabbitsfizz]

What your country dictates for breeding does not affect the AMHA status, Eagle, those horses can still be AMHA registered. Also, if you are in the EU which I believe Italy is(?) anything that has tow fully registered parents has to have it's offspring accepted for registration, irrespective of the requirements of the country, that is European law and it supersedes country law in the case of animal breeding.

So, basically, you could take the government to the European court and you would win- all the Equine people have to do is band together and send one representative, it does not have to be for a specific breed.

That aside, the main reason we have so many poor quality animals - and believe me I have seen a few over here, is that SO many are bred. Look at QH's where a similar situation is occurring. You breed enough of anything, irrespective of type (ie breeding only good animals) and you immediately get "culls"

You take those "culls" into the next generation (someone has bought a "stud colt" with "Little Bitty Champion of the World" in it's pedigree, cheap because it has cow hocks, probably one of only six or seven sired by this truly good horse ever to have this fault) and the pedigree stays good and the quality goes down.

Then you sell the foals from this horse on the pedigree.

How often have we seen animals advertised with nothing more going for them than that they have Buckeroo as a great grandsire?

Then those foals get bred.

Et voilà, you have a poorly conformed horse with an excellent pedigree- and absolutely NOT the responsibility of the original breeders of the top stallions foal - except, of course, maybe they should have gelded him on the mare!

 

[SampleMM]

I think the main problem is $$$$$ ! Most people breed a zillion mares with no idea what their crosses are going to produce. They don't seem to want to put the time, energy and money into putting together a solid breeding program that improves the breed instead of just producing "whatever" so that they can make some money.

 

[Minimor]

What one person calls conformation faultsothers will disagree.

I would say, then, that those "others" need to learn more about conformation.
A short hip is bad conformation.....a thin, straight stifle is bad conformation...sickle hocks, round bone, pidgeon toes, bench knees, calf knees, bow legs...all these things are bad conformation (and of course there are many other things that could be added to that list) and should be recognized as bad conformation no matter who is looking at the horse.

It doesn't matter if you like a rounded croup and I like a flat croup--both of those croups should come with a good length of hip. That is the difference between TYPE and CONFORMATION.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

When it comes to gelding them I sort of agree with Ashley's statement and I understand it is expensive to geld but you take that chance when you breed, and you have a responsibility to that foal.

My suggestions are if you can't afford to geld them then you shouldn't be breeding, if you can't afford to keep them and hold on to them before they are gelded then don't breed or breed way less so you can afford it. Or send the foal off but keep the papers or lease the foal out until you got a vets confirmation letter that this horse has been gelded. I certaintly wouldn't lease a older stallion out.

Thats another thing to is there are people out there that sell their foals for bottom dollar because they need to make room for next years foals. Here is a solution, don't breed!! That way you don't have to sell foals at give away prices and it won't hurt you financially. And you may have to take a second look as to why your foals aren't selling and is it possibly your breeding program.

As far as conformation goes yes it can be result of injury to have bad traits, but we can't keep making exuces otherwise everyone will start to give that speech. This horse has a bad bite but it shouldn't pass on to his kids, maybe not but who can say it won't happen to the next generation, or the next. We have to be responsible for our actions. Yes no horse will be perfect but we got to continue to breed for the better. IMO when it comes to miniatures our biggest fault we have is poor developed hind ends, and crooked legs. Alot of it develops into stifle issues.

 

[frostedpineminis]

I agree with not liking that the judges are placing horses with major faults, but I also think people need to be careful at judging other peoples horses based on pictures, it could be the photographer and it could also be an injury to the horse that would have nothing to do with genetics and what the foal will turn out like, could be farrier or that more people in the mini world do there own feet. There is a lot of factors that we do not know.

 

[Lizzie]

You are entitled to your opinion. However, obviously I disagree. Our vet doesn't geld until they are 8 months anyways and most are sold way before that. There's no way we are going to keep them until they are that old just to geld. I can't name any breeder in my area that does.

We are sort of close to you Kelsey and we mostly geld before sale. Since the '70's, I think we have only sold three colts whole. Two we thought would mature to be outstanding in their breed and one we knew was to be gelded by the new owner, who is in a wheel chair. Our vet will geld at 5-6 months.

I believe you now own our Gypsy mare Claire? She is very special. Did she foal yet? You probably know from our forum, that for the last year or so, the Gypsy breeders have been on a huge push to geld every colt before sale, unless absolutely top quality. Many are doing that now. Way too many mediocre stallions out there being bred and a glut of whole colts for sale.

I agree though, in S. California it is incredibly expensive to geld. Like you, we pay at least $350. There again, I do think it is irresponsible to send poor quality colts out whole. Many will go on to be bred. Not offering registration helps, or offering to go half with the new owner on gelding might work. I also think, the difficulty selling whole colts just as pets, is that upon reaching adults, they don't necessarily make good pets. This often means that they are sold on and on again or end up at killer sales. Not something we want for the horses we bring into the world.

I have been encouraged, watching the Mini shows lately, to see loads of really top quality geldings being shown. Many equally as good as the top stallions out there.

Lizzie

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

We are sort of close to you Kelsey and we mostly geld before sale. Since the '70's, I think we have only sold three colts whole. Two we thought would mature to be outstanding in their breed and one we knew was to be gelded by the new owner, who is in a wheel chair. Our vet will geld at 5-6 months.

I believe you now own our Gypsy mare Claire? She is very special. Did she foal yet? You probably know from our forum, that for the last year or so, the Gypsy breeders have been on a huge push to geld every colt before sale, unless absolutely top quality. Many are doing that now. Way too many mediocre stallions out there being bred and a glut of whole colts for sale.

I agree though, in S. California it is incredibly expensive to geld. Like you, we pay at least $350. There again, I do think it is irresponsible to send poor quality colts out whole. Many will go on to be bred. Not offering registration helps, or offering to go half with the new owner on gelding might work. I also think, the difficulty selling whole colts just as pets, is that upon reaching adults, they don't necessarily make good pets. This often means that they are sold on and on again or end up at killer sales. Not something we want for the horses we bring into the world.

I have been encouraged, watching the Mini shows lately, to see loads of really top quality geldings being shown. Many equally as good as the top stallions out there.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

If we had one with horrible conformation faults, we would have to fork over the money and geld. We have done it before but we don't geld all colts as a common practice. I did sell several colts last year on gelding contracts without papers. As with all my horses, I do ask if they ever can't keep them or want to sell to let me have a chance to buy them back. I have been in contact with a LOT of the foals I have sold and the majority of them are now geldings, several that were definitely breeding/show quality. But, they are happy being just nice pet geldings.

Yes, that's right! You guys did own my Claire Bear. I love her so much. She was due this March. Unfortunately, she had a horrible miscarriage 3 months to early.

It broke my heart. Of course, it was the perfectly marked black and white filly, we have been waiting for for the last 5 years! But, thank goodness Claire was ok. She had to be flushed out a lot and have a culture. There was no tearing or anything. She was cleared by the vet to try to be bred again. She is now in foal to Lion King's Perfection for a late May 2012 foal. We are just praying everything goes smoothly.

Lulu the gypsy mare I had before ended up having major fertility issues and despite being at a fertility clinic in AZ for over a year, could not get in foal. Yes, I have seen that with the gypsies. I know Jen gelds her gypsy colts that aren't fit to be bred and offers considerable discounts if they are sold on gelding contracts.

 

[minie812]

I have reduced breeding the last several years due to the economy and to see how some of my foals are maturing. I reduced numbers due to health issues also and had serious thoughts of selling off but my minis they keep me sane. I think alot of folks breed because they feel entitled too since they have paid out so much for the name and such. What do you do when a breeder has a horse that has produced bad bites and locking stifles in their foals but continue to use the stallion. They paid a huge sum and Heaven only knows WHY? keep breeding? Oh well, You cannot stop bad breeding. it happens in dogs & cats too! Maybe really promote more of the geldings in the shows. I think that AMHA/R are doing better at that. I think the WORLD and Nationals have had some of the best horses I have seen to date...Beautiful! I am going to be gelding my two little boys for the G-kids to show nx year. At least my home-growns I know what I have with them. Maybe the registers could have it where we can have the papers marked Pet quality by the sellers? I know it won't stop bad breeding. Too bad it isn't cheaper to spay a mare. I often have wondered, Where do the foals end up from the farms that have 40-80 foals a year? Do they keep them (the ones that can't be sold)-do they go to auction-are they sold without papers or given away? With the economy in the dumps they have to go somewhere? I just cannot imagine the cost to keep so many with Hay and feed at an all time high! Not dumping on anyone I was just curious?

 

[Riverrose28]

Yes some breeders do turn a blind eye, why? because the trainers and judges allow it. Money talks. I've been to Nationals and seen the judges place horses that toe out, but shown by well known trainers over better more correct horses. I've also seen absolutly crazy in the head horses place over better horses. I believe disposition should also be a concern for breeders as well as conformation.

I have been breeding for many years and haven't had a new foal in over two years and don't expect any in the near future, I'm an honest breeder, I breed for good conformation and any thing else will be sold as a pet, or a gelding, even if it means a lose for my farm. I have two glass cases full of crystal candy dishes, platters and picture frames for earning Championships and Reserve, I have a mantel full of plaques and ribbons from AMHA Championships and Reserves. I also have a tack room full of Plaques from open show Championships. All said I am an honest breeder, for example I now have consigned to a sale a gelding with a good bite, straight legs, good length of back, good hips, nice color, why was he gelded? His disposistion was not stallion matereal, he was testing me all the time, not worth it. Am I losing money, He__ yes! It costs me $230 for a well foal exam, then $260. to geld, but I'm not passing on a fault. The same with the fillies, I recently sold a filly as a pet, why? In my opinion her head was too long. Someone else may have sold her as show quality simply because of her pedigree, and her parents show career. Not me I'm too honest. I'm not blind to faults, my eyes are wide open. It kills me when someone advertises and breeds on the acomplishments of others and ride on a name, such as the Buckaroo line.

Heres a test! Show your mini's at a open show circuit, one that has four or five shows a year. show against quarter horses, arabs, tenn. walkers, morgans, you get the picture. Most of these open shows have quarter or paint horse judges, or some all breed judges, if you win all the classes then you have good conformation in your home breds. show your mares, stallions & geldings against the best in your area, when you take the year end high point conformation for the year, then you will know your mini horses are ready for the big time against other minis and are conformational correct. Those open judges are not blind to our minis, they really don't want them to win over their prefered breed, but will judge honestly. Just my two cents.

 

[Lizzie]

Terribly sorry to hear about Claire Kelsey. She produces super nice offspring. I'll keep the good thought for you for next year. Was Lulu a very heavily marked mare that came from Jen? If so, I think Steph liked her at the open house and nearly purchased her. She has put Myst up for sale too. That really breaks my heart. Certainly the best mare we have ever owned. We'll have to come over and see all your tiny kidlets one of these days.

Lizzie

 

[Lizzie]

Back to the subject at hand. It has been a real eye-opener, to watch the World show. While I think the overall quality was wonderful, some of the judging had be a bit confused. In one of the Sr. stallion classes, I saw one handler repeatedly try to set up the horse's forelegs properly. There was no way the horse could, since he toed out very badly. While the horse didn't win, he did place well, which surprised me. Could it be because he was from a big-name farm? I don't know. There were several other horses who deserved to place above this one. Watching the stallion classes, I really only saw one which was pretty horrible in every respect. I did fall in love with some - placed or not.

Even though I watched it on a large full screen, I'm sure the judges saw things I missed. It's not like seeing them in person. One thing which did strike me, was rather stilty, short movement in some horses. Maybe that is something personal, but I like a horse to cover ground.

Lizzie

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Terribly sorry to hear about Claire Kelsey. She produces super nice offspring. I'll keep the good thought for you for next year. Was Lulu a very heavily marked mare that came from Jen? If so, I think Steph liked her at the open house and nearly purchased her. She has put Myst up for sale too. That really breaks my heart. Certainly the best mare we have ever owned. We'll have to come over and see all your tiny kidlets one of these days.

Lizzie

Thank you! I will definitely post pictures if all goes well and you should come see the baby

Yes! She was just oozing pawprints. Lulu was stunning. I traded her for Claire and they sold her as a riding horse. I have admired Myst for a while. She is absolutely stunning

Come over anytime!

 

[Riverrose28]

Back to the subject at hand. It has been a real eye-opener, to watch the World show. While I think the overall quality was wonderful, some of the judging had be a bit confused. In one of the Sr. stallion classes, I saw one handler repeatedly try to set up the horse's forelegs properly. There was no way the horse could, since he toed out very badly. While the horse didn't win, he did place well, which surprised me. Could it be because he was from a big-name farm? I don't know. There were several other horses who deserved to place above this one. Watching the stallion classes, I really only saw one which was pretty horrible in every respect. I did fall in love with some - placed or not.

Even though I watched it on a large full screen, I'm sure the judges saw things I missed. It's not like seeing them in person. One thing which did strike me, was rather stilty, short movement in some horses. Maybe that is something personal, but I like a horse to cover ground.

Lizzie

Amen, this is what the original poster is talking about! If you could be ther in person you would see the same thing, believe me.