Would you breed to a stallion?

[Hosscrazy]

Susan:

Thank you for posting your thoughts, and also sharing Tony's post with us. This is definitely something I want to print and save.

Liz R.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No Never. Speaking as a Miniature Horse breeder with NO dwarf genetic in any of her breeding animals, one strike and out for ANY animals, however good, what ever it's bloodlines, that produced a dwarf for me- it would have to be a bought in line, anyway, but, No, no second chances. Sorry, not a road I care to go down.

And I am not at all sure it does take two to tango, in this case.

 

[hhpminis]

Thank you for posting Tonys reply from back when. I do very much respect Tony's dedication to the breed. He has probably had more foaling experience than any of us on the forum. He has taken those chances and for the most part has had great success. As he admits himself there has been some mishaps. Those breeders who can handle the heart break of a mishap, my hats go off to you as without you the breed would not be where it is. This goes for line breeding, LWO or any other borderline ground that people have taken.

Also, as Tony said, he would not breed the 2 that had a dwarf together again.

I recall the post just a few weeks ago about the horribly deformed foal that Tony had. This was the result of a combination he has had great success with in the past, several times. Was it genetic? environmental? Who knows. One thing that raises the chance of dwarfs in humans is age in parents. Could this be the case? Again who knows.

All I can answer for is myself. I am so emotional about my horses that I really cannot handle the heartbreak of even taking the chance, so I remain resolved to my original answer that no, I would not breed a known producer of a dwarf.

Heck I even felt sick after going and seeing King Kong as I felt so sorry for how this computer generated animal was being treated.

 

[Southern_Heart]

I have read all the post and I still say: Not only NO!!! But heck no!!! No second chances! Sorry!

JMHO

Joyce

 

[Knighthawke]

I will say I have really enjoyed reading everyones responce and insight on this.

Thanks again.

Barb

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well I think another thing to think of and the answer will be different for everyone is what percentage is to much for you. NO matter if you have 100 foals a year, 10 foals a year or 5 foals a year..if it is common place for dwarves to be born on your farm .. at what point do you re-evaluate what you are doing?

LIke I said for some it may be they accept 2 percent or 5 percent or whatever.. some higher some 0 but for me when I look at it as a percentage rate or a common occerance in a breeding program to me.. that is something I look at differently but again that is just me and the answer is different of course for everyone.

 

[tagalong]

*sigh*

So many of you who have posted so adamantly about NOT using a stallion or mare that could produce a dwarf - are probably doing exactly that. With so many breeding lines going back to "foundation" sires that WERE absolute dwarves... your chances of only having horses that do not carry the gene - are very small. Let's be generous here - and say only 60% of minis today carry the dwarf gene - among them many of the stallions and mares we all consistently drool over. You may not know - until there is a cross - and the 25% chance within that cross - that produces a dwarf that actually lives to be foaled out.

If it only took ONE parent - then we would see more dwarfs. Thank goodness it takes a combination...

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

tag...

I will say there are many forms that do take 2 parents but am a firm beliver along with those that started the research project it can easily be just one.

I also dont think everyone or well I am saying I wouldnt breed someone who might be a carrier due to lines from grandsire or grandam or great grand sire ect..

I think most are talking about a horse that you have seen or witnessed proudce a dwarf and continuing to breed THAT Horse not talking about the other 100 + that may or may not continue to be a part of that pedigree by half sibling or sibling or whateever

I guess for me the question si where do you draw the line.. at what point do you say enough is enough or do you just keep accepting it as the breeds dirty little secret and accept the numbers of dwarves born every year?

and to be honest I dont even know where I am myself with that answer

 

[hhpminis]

Sorry to disagree but, the subject was not if the horse carried the gene, as we all know breeding horses with dwarf characteristics was done a lot in early breeding of miniature horses, I like to think without full knowledge of the consequences, but nevertheless it was far from uncommon. Therefore, you are correct, many of our breeding stock could carry this gene, chromosome, mutation, whatever it is that causes dwarfism.

The original question posed was would you breed a horse that was a known producer of dwarves.

I do believe that the more your horse sires or foals without any dwarf characteristics the better your chance of your horse being not a carrier.

I am sorry to keep posting on this. I am not trying to be argumentative or to dominate the thread. It is just something I feel very passionate about.

I am enjoying everybody's input.

 

[Sue_C.]

*sigh*So many of you who have posted so adamantly about NOT using a stallion or mare that could produce a dwarf - are probably doing exactly that.

Ahhh NO, that isn't the point...the point is...should our horses produce one...would we rebreed them. (Or in this case, breed to the stallion who HAS produced one.)

As for those who do, willingly, take the chance; KNOWING they are passing on this gene...I still opt NOT to. If a stallion or mare has produced a dwarf, even those who cannot agree it takes two carriers...are you willing to take the chance that is so? I will not, and that is my choice. For me, it would definately be a very expensive road to travel, as I only have a few horses, and not a lot of money. It isn't easy to just up-n-buy-another QUALITY mare and stallion, so it is definately something that I pray I never have to deal with.

As I already said...I don't care how many championships a horse has, it is not entering my breeding shed if I know it is a dwarf producer. Of what use to our breed is another dwarf producing champion get from this sire or dam??

 

[bluerogue]

I have to agree with Annette. Not only that, but there can be other reasons a horse produces a dwarf. Many insecticides have been proven to adversely affect pregnancies, as well as fertility. Some plants can do the same thing (but most horse people remove dangerous plants from the reach of their horses). Not to mention some medicines and de-wormers, and such things can also cause a bad reaction in pregnancy (and fertility too). Age is a factor also, as the eggs of a mare get older (as she gets older- mares do not produce eggs, they are born with a finite supply). And if a stallion has not been bred for a while, and then is bred once, and the mare conceives, there is a bigger chance the foal will not be "perfect", due to the old, dead, and any malformed sperm that are sitting in his testes. There are a great many reasons a foal can be born a dwarf or with other problems, and sometimes it is not fair to blame the parents (sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not). Sorry, I went off on a tangent. Can you tell I was a biology major for quite some time, and am now an environmental studies major? This is something I find very interesting, so any thoughts on this would be very appreciated. To keep this thread as pure as posssible, unless other people also want to here your thoughts, please PM me about it.

Edited for spelling... you'd think after this long in school I'd be able to spell by now......

 

[Sue_C.]

I am well aware that there are other reasons for dwarfism than genes...but if I suspected it were enviromental, I would certainly have a necropsy done. Also, the causes are generally known, such as fertilizers, or other envionmental poisons that one would know about. A case in point, is there was a farmer in our area which had five deformed calves born to his herd just last year... It was found that he had put his animals onto a field before the correct period of time had past, after spraying.

My Vet and I have talked in depth about this issue, and he agrees with me, and is willing to spay my mares, should the need arise.

 

[bluerogue]

I was in NO WAY whatsoever saying anything to you in particular, Sue C. I was just talking in generalities. I don't know your history with dwarves, have you had several? It sounds from your post as if you have (and this is not an accusation in any way... I am just curious). If you have, did you find any environmental issues had any impact on your breeding? (This last question I open to anyone who has had a dwarf. As an environmental scientist, and as a mini owner, I find the possibility interesting, and worthy of study). I in no way meant to cause you any pain or suffering, Sue. I just wanted to say there are other reasons dwarves can be produced. It is something that can happen, and should be kept in mind. I didn't mean anything else by it. And here I shall follow Annette's lead, and bow out, and not post on this topic anymore. I shall, however, read any reponses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my post. It was not meant to be offensive at all.

 

[Marion]

I agree with Tony that once a pair has had a dwarf one should not breed them together again. If the stallion and mare do not produce dwarfs with other horses then should they be out of a program. However, if they produce with other horses then yes they should be pulled from the breeding program.

 

[Sue_C.]

I was in NO WAY whatsoever saying anything to you in particular, Sue C. I was just talking in generalities.

That's the problem with "puter-talk". If we were talking face to face...you'd see I knew that...I was just making the point that I, (as I am sure most are) aware of that fact.

I don't know your history with dwarves, have you had several? It sounds from your post as if you have (and this is not an accusation in any way... I am just curious).

No, we have never had any dwarves born to our horses here on our little farm, but I feel very passionate that I do what I feel best for the breed, should we ever.

And here I shall follow Annette's lead, and bow out, and not post on this topic anymore. I shall, however, read any reponses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my post. It was not meant to be offensive at all.

Goodness NO!! We NEED to talk about this subject. It has to be discussed IMHO, and this isn't a heated discussion...actually, one of the least heated on the subject so far. Speaking only for myself of course; but simply because I am sure of my personal opinion, I don't get angry because someone else has another.

As far as environmental issues, and dwarfism goes, that is a different cuppa tea, altogether, isn't it?? Are there not tests for those causes. Tell us, please.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

tag...
I also dont think everyone or well I am saying I wouldnt breed someone who might be a carrier due to lines from grandsire or grandam or great grand sire ect..

I think most are talking about a horse that you have seen or witnessed proudce a dwarf and continuing to breed THAT Horse not talking about the other 100 + that may or may not continue to be a part of that pedigree by half sibling or sibling or whateever

529146[/snapback]

​

Thank you, Lisa! Just because someone says they won't breed a dwarf producer, doesn't mean they will rule out every horse with those bloodlines, as I said in my original response on this thread. You have no way of knowing EXACTLY which horse has passed the genes on from that far back. However, you know EXACTLY which horses produced the dwarf "you" have. PLEASE NOTE: I'm using "you" in italics, not meaning any specific person, just in general.

 

[bluerogue]

Thanks, Sue. I was kind of worried I had upset you. I just wanted to point out that all dwarves are not the result of genetic mutation, or a "dwarf" gene. There are several different types of dwarves, and as such, there are probably several different types of "dwarf" genes. With all of these things, there are quite a few ways a dwarf can come into being. Until we can accurately identify all of these different avenues of dwarf production, well, they will just keep on being born. We can, of course, lessen the incidence of their births somewhat, but until we have accurate tests to identify carriers of all the genes, there's not a whole bunch we can do. Not only that, but there will always be cases of spontaneous genetic mutation which could result in a dwarf, or an animal that has problems that resemble dwarfism. And you are right... most forms of environmental toxicity can be identified. But sadly, sometimes it can only be done in a necropsy. And by the time the problem becomes known, the damage has already been done. For most of the poisons that cause these problems do not have antidotes. Or you wouldn't be able to give them to the victim in time, because you didn't know they were exposed. Toxicity problems are squirrely, as they affect some people, horses, animals (take your pick!) differently than it would even a full sibling of the affected member. Not only that, but what catches one member of a herd, might miss the member standing right next to him/her. This is why insecticides are so dangerous. It takes such a small amount to do such major damage. And some metabolize extremely quickly. By the time you could get a vet out to take a blood sample, the poison has already changed form, and cannot be identified. That doesn't apply to everything, of course, but to an amazing amount of compounds it does. This is why it is so important to make absolutely SURE your mares are not exposed to any kind of toxin in the first trimestor. The majority of the basic foal development happens then, and any form of even ever so slightly dangerous foreign compound introduced to the mare can cause catastrophic damage. The farther along the mare gets, the less the damger becomes. Of course, I would not recommend testing how much you could get away with in the last two trimestors, but it is less dangerous. The threat of dwarfism is not the only thing that can happen to these foals. One of my friends had a mare have a gorgeous little black and white colt this year, whom she lost at about a month of age, due to major kidney malformations. His kidneys never did develop the way they should have. We do not know why it happened. I think her mare got exposed to something at some point in her pregnancy. She had oh, gosh, somewhere around 15-20 other foals, none of whom were affected with any type of kidney problems, or anything else, unless you count the one colt who caught rotavirus (he's doing very well, and is on her show string for this next year). There are so many things that can be traced back to environmental causes, if people would take the time to track them down. It's astonishing the cases of accidental poisoning that occur simply because people don't pay attention to how long the field should remain fallow after fertilizing or spraying pesticide. Some of those fertilizers and pesticides will enter a horses system simply by the horse walking in the grass (route of entry is the frog, the sole, and the skin right above the coronary band). Not even to mention if the horse should actually eat the grass. Horrible, horrible stuff. And yet we continue to use it because it has the desired end results of better growing, healthy, insect free grass. I am sensitive to pesticides in particular, and let me tell you, it is highly uncomfortable to even smell the stuff. Forget about even getting any on me. It's just nasty stuff, and it should always be kept as far away as possible from any animals, but especially from pregnant mares, or mares who are to be bred in the near future (and I mean in the next couple of months from the exposure). I would not be surprised if half or more of the dwarves born in any given year were the result of exposure to fertilizers and pesticides. They are much more dangerous than many people realize, or even think about. I do not intend to offend anyone with this post. I do realize some of my comments could be termed radical by some people. Please understand they are my opinion, and only that. You are very free to disregard anything I say, and I will not be offended. My intentions are not to start a heated discussion, or make people angry. I simply want to inform people of other causes to some very important problems. If by my posting this I have saved one horse from being injured by an accidental exposure to some thought to be non-dangerous compound, this post will have done it's duty.

Edited to add: Holy Cow! Sorry about the book. I promise to try to limit myself to the pertinent points in the future. Sorry about so long of a post!

 

[horsehug]

Jennifer,

I am very glad you wrote so much. I learned a lot from it and it was very informative!

Susan O.

 

[runamuk]

Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.

I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?

 

[horsehug]

Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.
I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?

Runamuk, I couldn't agree more!

I have seen many times in my life when people say they would do one thing (honestly believing it) about a situation that has never happened to them "yet"...... and when it does and they face reality they have a change of heart.

I'm not saying everyone would, but some would I am sure!

Susan O.