Your breeding practices..

[SampleMM]

My breeding program is centered around buckskin colored horses that must have correct conformation with pretty heads and must be a direct offspring from a stallion and mare that are World Champions or producers of World Champions. This is not an easy thing to do and has taken me 7 years to put my program together. I wanted to learn everything I could about minis before I started buying and breeding. Next year will be my stallions first foal crop which consists of two outside mares both have already produced multi World Champions so that should be exciting. I bought him at 5 months old and he is now four, so you can see I have really taken my time and am trying to do everything in my power to do things correctly. Lastly, if a horse has a bad attitude I won't even consider it for breeding. My horses are like dogs and the minute they see me, they come running.

Personally, I feel foals should know how to tie and lead before being sold and I like them to have been clipped a few times so they are somewhat used to that as well. I do not appreciate getting horses that have been running wild with little human contact.

 

[Wings]

Really interesting to read everyone's thoughts on this

I want movement, I love a long floating trot and I hate lazy backends. Most of my horses where picked out of the paddock when I saw them moving. I believe that conformation and movement go together so that always follows, conformation MUST be clean.

I take their nature into consideration, I can handle most issues but I don't want to deal with any nasty traits and I certainly don't want the foals picking up on it. I look at pedigree but I'm more interested in sire, dam and siblings.

I handle all my foals from early on, I start serious halter training at weaning time and want them to lead and tie before they go anywhere.

 

[mini horse mania]

Another question..just out of curiosity...would you look past mild conformational flaws for the right pedigree..color...? I was thinking that with pairing to the right stallion, you *may* get what you are looking for? I did breed a nice mare this year with a "horsey" head and long neck to my stallion.her main fault imo.she has a great pedigree and her foals in the past were nice regardless of her head..lol.hoping that his traits will pass on and give me a nice conformed foal.

 

[Jean_B]

When it comes to my breeding program I am TOTALLY color blind. Conformation, athleticism, disposition, pedigree. I don't care if a horse is a black, bay or purple as long as it has the balance and elegance I'm striving for.

 

[mini horse mania]

We do breed for pintos..but not only for color..and ill admit it is hard finding the right combination of what you are looking for to get what you strive for in one package you have to be downright picky. Luckily we have a great stallion with the complete package that produces the conformation and color.he is very mild mannered and easy to handle..i wish he could produce himself every time. Color isnt going to help any with a poorly conformed horse.maybe for pets..but thats it.neither will pedigree...we learned that with boer goats when we started blindly..the papers dont make the animal..regardless if the sire sold for $20,000.if the goat isnt breed quality..all you have is a goat in the end and a wothless paper with top lines.

 

[Minimor]

You mention wishing your stallion could produce himself every time. That is one aspect of breeding that the majority of Mini breeders tells to overlook--they seem happy to accept that fact that when breeding Minis the foals are likely to come out all over the map in terms of type and quality. The say pedigree isn't important. Sure you can have a nice looking horse with no pedigree and sometimes he might sure nice looking foals, but sometimes he is likely to sure lesser quality goals too. A hodgepodge pedigree will give no consistency. A strong pedigree means the horse will produce himself over and over and over again. This has been been proven in other breeds but as long as mini people are happy to say pedigree doesn't matter they will continue to get inconsistency in their foals.

 

[little lady]

I am going to have to disagree with you Minimoor to a degree. Some people will breed a world champion sire and dam but that is no guarantee that you will get that quality. That is why one should look at the whole pedigree sire, dam great sire, great dam etc and look at siblings produced and even then that is no guarantee you will produce quality. I also think if you look at a pedigree and for example the sire is proven(shown or produded shown foals) but none of the others in the pedigree have been proven they shouldn't be discounted. Maybe those horses have never been shown or proven that doesn't mean they are a bad horse. That is why I would encourage one to look for pictures of the horses in the pedigrees that would better help determine possiblities or even better yet see the sire/dam/siblings in person. In my opinion when I was raising Paint horses there were many that were winning and becoming champions but upon seeing them in person it was obvious that politics played a role in the horses standings.

 

[targetsmom]

As a lifelong student of genetics, I am one of those that believes pedigree IS important. Before I got into breeding minis I studied some of (what I considered) the more sucessful breeding programs and looked not just at their stallions but at the MARES. Sometimes I think too much credit or blame is placed on the stallion while the mare's contribution is overlooked. One thing I noticed in one very successful program was their use of Blue Boy bred mares, which I felt was not just coincidence. That program is still one of the most sucessful around. And in another program, I found myself liking every single foal I saw sired by one of their pinto stallions (FWF Blue Boys Magic Man). Then I met one of his foals in person and bought my own Magic Man filly. Even though I have not bred my filly (now 8 years old!) I have watched the get from that second generation and I see the type and quality coming through again and again.

I could give more examples, but I am convinced, even if others aren't, of the value of pedigree. Those traits you admire - whatever they are - had to come from somewhere.

I am also a believer in not just looking at the sire and dam but all the relatives you can find, as I did with Magic Man, and with our stallion Buckshot (who has a TON of famous relatives, even though he was only lightly shown himself).

 

[Minimor]

Little lady--whether the sire and dam are world champions or not means nothing in a discussion of pedigree. Those two world champions may both have hodgepodge pedigrees and therefore it is no surprise that they don't produce quality in their offspring. That really is my point. Judging a pedigree is so much more than looking at the names and saying world champion! For me two WC parent does not mean good pedigree

 

[little lady]

Little lady--whether the sire and dam are world champions or not means nothing in a discussion of pedigree. Those two world champions may both have hodgepodge pedigrees and therefore it is no surprise that they don't produce quality in their offspring. That really is my point. Judging a pedigree is so much more than looking at the names and saying world champion! For me two WC parent does not mean good pedigree

So we agree! I must have misunderstood your previous post.

 

[mini horse mania]

You mention wishing your stallion could produce himself every time. That is one aspect of breeding that the majority of Mini breeders tells to overlook--they seem happy to accept that fact that when breeding Minis the foals are likely to come out all over the map in terms of type and quality. The say pedigree isn't important. Sure you can have a nice looking horse with no pedigree and sometimes he might sure nice looking foals, but sometimes he is likely to sure lesser quality goals too. A hodgepodge pedigree will give no consistency. A strong pedigree means the horse will produce himself over and over and over again. This has been been proven in other breeds but as long as mini people are happy to say pedigree doesn't matter they will continue to get inconsistency in their foals.

I say pedigree is unimportamt to a point, as Nostalgias Double Jeopardy has none.he was hardshipped into A and R in 1995.he has proven himself in his offspring and himself time and time again.before I purchased him,i debated on the fact that he had no pedigree amd what it meant as far as production of quality foals.i see many nice quality marea also hardshipped. I do have good pedihreed mares,but they look it also.pedigree isnt enough to make me purchase a poorly conformed mare just to get the pedigree.i will however look at a pedigree as a tool to judge potential as a breeding or performance horse

 

[little lady]

I say pedigree is unimportamt to a point, as Nostalgias Double Jeopardy has none.he was hardshipped into A and R in 1995.he has proven himself in his offspring and himself time and time again.before I purchased him,i debated on the fact that he had no pedigree amd what it meant as far as production of quality foals.i see many nice quality marea also hardshipped. I do have good pedihreed mares,but they look it also.pedigree isnt enough to make me purchase a poorly conformwd mare just to get it.i will however look at a pedigree as a tool to judge potential as a breeding or performance horse

That is exactly what I was trying to say...you found a nobody, diamond in the rough and he has went on to prove himself. That is why I think too much emphasis is placed on pedigree although yes it can be a great tool to use when making a decision on purhasing a miniature.

 

[mini horse mania]

I will however say this,because of hardshipped horses in programs,you have to look at pedigree to a point on what you breed to. Two hardshipped horses can produce outstanding, but at that point,you are looking at,the horse and not pedigree.a pedigreed horse that has consistency in their foals is a great tool in a breeding program.that pedigree along with good qualities will probably sell faster than a mini with a hardshipped pedigree,as you can see what ancestors they had and the potential they have and can produce.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

No way will I pick pedigree over conformation. I prefer to have my breeding horses to have nice bloodlines but that doesn't necessarily mean that every horse from those bloodlines will always be nice. Also I agree too much emphasis on the stallion you really have to look at the mares you breed that stallion too and I believe the mares make a bigger impact on that foals life then the sire.

 

[MindyLee]

My stallion is and has a outstanding pedigree with many many known names in it. I bought him because of his conformation AND pedigree. HOWEVER... he has produced some really nice foals AS WELL AS some ugly foals. (before I owned him)

I looked at those mares and the mares defently played a huge part on what the foals matured out to be. I defently say that when bred to a good mare that clearly can produce a good foal from him, she dose, if she has some flaws, I see it in the foals too. I say its a 50/50 when breeding.

 

[mini horse mania]

I agree. The way we look at it is this...the stallion is responsible for 50% of each foal produced.that is why we emphasize on a stallion. I agree you also need nice mares to breed with to produce nice conformed foals also,but one mare doesnt make the impact on the miniature horse population like that stallion does. I have seen many inferior conformed stallions being bred to many mares for color only it really peeves me off to see badly comformed foals sold as a show, or breeding prospect. Thats why its so hard to find good stock.

 

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

I'm just getting started with Minis. My priorities are as follows: Conformation=pedigree, temerament, size, color. My stallion isn't perfect. Since I'd planned on starting with mares (see thread introducing us from NC), I now have to decide whether or not to build a program using the stallion I have. His only known lines are Buckeroo breeding (dam's sire), the rest is unknown. I plan to attend several more shows, continue visiting farms, and using websites and AMHA/AMHR on-line resources to research. I have a picture in my mind of what my ideal horse looks like....and it doesn't make one darn bit of difference to me that this IDEAL horse is now a mini.

Pedigree does factor in equally with conformation with me. There is a difference between unknown lines (by unknown I mean like my stallion...sire is x, dam is y, sire's sire has no name, sire's dam no name, dam's sire Buckeroo breeding, dam's dam no name) and known lines...known lines have researchable progeny that either have show, performance or production records that can be used to ascertain desireability in one's own breeding program. It appears to me that minis are similar to Arabs, in that halter horses have a different conformational "look" than performance horses...a little more extreme to the ideal is my impression. With an ACCURATE pedigree, one can make more completely informed decisions about the probability of possible results in any given breeding. I'm not sure what the AMHA/AMHR equivalents to the Arabian DataSource are, but I'm sure it's there. Getting as many photos to go with a pedigree shows what lines produce what traits...MOST FREQUENTLY. Nothing is ever assured in breeding, however, one can improve ones chances of a quality foal.

Having a breeding goal, be it toward halter or performance, is important and will affect what each breeder considers ideal conformation. Yes, one breeds form-to-function, however, what does that mean to each breeders program? Having ones personal answers to these questions is important in order to have a consistent program. When I leave this world, I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE folks to say..."Julie's program was small, and only covered 20 years...HOWEVER...you can recognize horses from her program because they have a certain LOOK." To me, that is the ultimate compliment ANY breeder can receive. Whether or not it's a look you want to use in your program is why there are so many different breeders! A good, square horse, with it's three equally balanced circles (as someone else has already mentioned), wedge heads with small, tight ears into a hooky poll, shapely necks into laid back shoulders, short backs, strong deep loins and hips, short cannons and flat joints are what I consider essential in my horses. Where my stallion lacks in these areas, I'll look for mares from pedigrees that are noted for producing these traits. She can't lack where he does.

Temperament is next, because I want amatuers to be able to handle my animals with ease. Good temperaments=easy trainability. That may be why even those horses we get with little previous handling come around so easily...the basic blocks were there, we just need to put them together into the form we wanted.

Color is the last...and is always the question I ask when I hear folks say "what a pretty color!" Unless their placement detracts from how conformation appears on a halter horse, color and markings mean little to me! (Which means I have TONS more research, 'cause now I need to study dilute genetics!)

As for my many comments about what I was supposed to have...I'd always planned to start with a couple of proven broodmares. Genetically, I understand 50% from stallion, 50% from mare. I feel that the mare contributes more than genetics though. Her tempSerament greatly affects her foals, during gestation and before weaning. A calm, curious mare will model the behavior I'd like in my foals. Dad doesn't always live day-to-day with the foal, so his contribution is more confined. Now I have this cremello stallion that I've picked to pieces, know where I need to improve him...and if he didn't move so uphill and with energy and atheleticism...I might geld him tomorrow. After I get him conditioned and going in harness, I'll make that final decision.

Soooo...there ya go.....all the comments from somebody who doesn't even HAVE a program yet!!

Since I'm wearing these though, I'm confident in my beliefs, and look forward to what I and my program can contribute to Miniatures...Julie

 

[targetsmom]

You may not have a breeding program yet, Julie, but it sounds to me like you are on the right track for whatever your "look" will turn out to be! Best of luck!

Mary

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I truly believe that the broodmares are the foundation to a successful breeding program. The way I look at it and I've read different percentages that you have to think that the mare accounts 70% of that foal's outcome. People think that if you breed to a high caliber national winning stallion to a ok mare you will get a outstanding foal but most of the time that won't be the case.

What I want in my broodmare is one that has great conformation that follows to the standard of perfection, the ability to perform, I want her to be athletic, I want a driver that will pass on movement to her foals, and temperament. I certainly don't want a mare around that has a terrible attitude and will potentially pass it on to her foals. Also in these tough times I do want to look at lines that are popular and ones that are fairly close. No more of this foal is a great great grandson of whomever. Also I want my mare shown and really see how she stands in the competition. I personally whether have a top show mare to breed to every so often to the top stallions of the country vs 10 broodmares that haven't even seen a show ring to a stallion that is not well known. Thats just me. The economy is so tough right now I rather try and breed for one thats by the very best and chance it on the one vs 10 ok foals. If that one foal sells great, if not then I want something nice on my show string. Also probably 95% of the colts born on my place would more then likely be gelded.

 

[countrymini]

I truly believe that the broodmares are the foundation to a successful breeding program. The way I look at it and I've read different percentages that you have to think that the mare accounts 70% of that foal's outcome. People think that if you breed to a high caliber national winning stallion to a ok mare you will get a outstanding foal but most of the time that won't be the case.

What I want in my broodmare is one that has great conformation that follows to the standard of perfection, the ability to perform, I want her to be athletic, I want a driver that will pass on movement to her foals, and temperament. I certainly don't want a mare around that has a terrible attitude and will potentially pass it on to her foals. Also in these tough times I do want to look at lines that are popular and ones that are fairly close. No more of this foal is a great great grandson of whomever. Also I want my mare shown and really see how she stands in the competition. I personally whether have a top show mare to breed to every so often to the top stallions of the country vs 10 broodmares that haven't even seen a show ring to a stallion that is not well known. Thats just me. The economy is so tough right now I rather try and breed for one thats by the very best and chance it on the one vs 10 ok foals. If that one foal sells great, if not then I want something nice on my show string. Also probably 95% of the colts born on my place would more then likely be gelded.

i have seen that before, a breeder with a beautiful stallion but really average mares.