$2000 Dwarf!!!!

[StarRidgeAcres]

I don't see a problem with continuing to breed the stalliion and mare, they may never have another dwarf, as long as they are not bred together again or to another horse carrying the gene. A lot of horses that have built our industry to what it is today have had a dwarf foal, but without their other foals we wouldn't be where we are today. But responcible breeders know not to cross those pairs again after producing a dwarf.

Usually agree with the things you post, but not this time. Yes, I am well aware that some very famous horses have produced dwarves in addition to their national and world champion get. But a hundred years from now will others look back and say it was worth it because of the visually acceptable/good conformation foals they produced? I'm not convinced. If those horses had been pulled from the breeding pool, we may by in a much better place now. Maybe not. But I don't see the merit to continuing to use ANY horse that has produced a dwarf. You know the horse now carries the gene and you know it can be passed - even if you can't see it in the foal. Then that foal goes on to produce horses and they can either be a non-carrier, a carrier or a full-blown dwarf (if bred to another carrier). If you've ever experienced the heartbreak, pain and suffering, you may feel differently.

Ok, I'm going to try and stop, but this topic makes me crazy!

 

[Becky]

Ok, I'm going to try and stop, but this topic makes me crazy!

On that we can agree!

But, until we have genetic testing available to prove or disprove that defective horses are indeed carrying genes for dwarfism, I would be very hesitant to take good horses out of the gene pool. Environmental factors can cause serious deformities in developing fetuses. Chemicals such as those used in pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers are known to cause birth defects. Fescue is now being implicated in some cases. Anyone having horses that produce defective foals needs to look closely at their environment before chalking it all up to genetics. Miniature horses are much more susceptible to the toxic effects of these than their full size counterparts due to their small size and weight.

Just my 2 cents......

 

[Taylor Richelle]

That is pure ignorance and greed. I am very curious to see the link. could someone PM me the link? Thank you!

 

[Sue_C.]

I don't see a problem with continuing to breed the stalliion and mare, they may never have another dwarf, as long as they are not bred together again or to another horse carrying the gene.

And how do you KNOW the other horses they are bred to are not carriers as well...you are still taking the change of producing another full dwarf...at the very best, you are passing it on in normal looking prodgeny.

But, until we have genetic testing available to prove or disprove that defective horses are indeed carrying genes for dwarfism, I would be very hesitant to take good horses out of the gene pool.

Sorry, but IMO, a dwarf producing horse...is NOT a "good horse". PERIOD.

Environmental factors can cause serious deformities in developing fetuses. Chemicals such as those used in pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers are known to cause birth defects. Fescue is now being implicated in some cases. Anyone having horses that produce defective foals needs to look closely at their environment before chalking it all up to genetics. Miniature horses are much more susceptible to the toxic effects of these than their full size counterparts due to their small size and weight.

That is true...but these causes can be examined and proven to be at fault. if we keep our heads in the samd, and pretend dwarfism isn't a problem, we will nevfer rid ourselves of it. Keep blaming it on something else...that does not help the breed.

 

[Ourhobbyfarm]

I have a dwarf that I purchased for more money then a registered mini. I have the funds and knowledge to take care of her, so I'm fine with people selling them for a fair amount of money. If they were free who knows the kind of conditions they would be living in. They need homes too. While I agree they should not be purposely bred they are still a loving animal and need a caring home. Sometimes charging more money helps assure they will get the care that they need. I'm just curious why there are not more for sale because I would rather see a genetic mistake be taken care by a caring home then destroyed secretly by a breeder that doesn't want it known that their stud/broodmare produced a dwarf.

If you have owned one you would know how special they are. I find it interesting how the mini world is towards dwarf horses. It's just like humans, sometimes you get a tiny person or someone with special needs. That's simply what a dwarf horse it. I have had horses all my life and my dwarf horse is the most fiesty, cheerful, kind horse I have ever owned. They joy that this tiny horse bring to everyone that meets her is a great gift.

 

[HGFarm]

I absolutely disagree with SELLING a dwarf to anyone. It is up to the owner to thoroughly screen the home it is going to, to make sure they are aware of the issues and have the finances and knowledge to care for it properly.

I have seen dwarfs come in, even some from out of state, that were given to various folks over the years who provided them with very loving homes.

I would rather see someone taking in a dwarf spend the money they have on caring for the dwarf and vet and farrier bills, not lining someone else's pocket, on top of all the other bills that are going to come with it!

No where did that ad advise anyone that the mare was a dwarf and would require extra care and treatment and have a much shorter life span than a 'normal' horse. I would rather see someone spend their $2000 on care than to line my pocket with it and send my 'problem child' off to someone else!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Totally disagree with selling a dwarf on the open market at all, let alone for a lot of money!

Having enough money to ensure correct care does not, automatically, make you a good owner, sorry.

I would rather see the money spent on buying the poor thing go towards it's care in the future. As to breeding again? No, absolutely not, do not care how good a horse is, the mare and the stallion should be taken out of the gene pool.

That, my children, is why Friesans may have an occasional dwarf foal born, but the breed does not have a "problem" per se, with dwarfs.

They ruthlessly eradicated all lines knownto have produced dwarfs.

They did notsay, "oh, but they are brilliant show horses"

So, certain lines are no longer able to be registered in the Friesan Stud Book.

Of course, that will not prevent their being registered in stud books in other countries.

And so the problem goes on.

We all here know, I think, that the dwarf gene is commonly held to be recessive, which means simply that BOTH parents must have one half of the gene in order for a full blown dwarf to occur.

We do not yet know what causes horses to have dwarf characteristics, it may well be that, genetically, these horses actually are dwarfs, in the way that both a horse showing ticking and a pure white horse are both "Sabino"

We just do not know.

BUT since BOTH horses carry the dwarf genetic, although they will both need to be mated to another carrying the same genetic, they will also, mated to a horse not carrying any dwarf genetic, each and every time they are bred, have a 50/50 chance of passing on the "defective" (sorry but speaking as a dwarf I feel I can say this is a defect) gene.

We should not be doing this, it is bad for the breed!

Whilst dwarfs will probably always occasionally, spontaneously occur, that is no excuse for allowing them to do so, or even encouraging them to do so.

OK, getting down now!!!

 

[Ourhobbyfarm]

I'll keep spending my money on a dwarf horse because to me that is a better option then the breeder destroying them. A life is a life. If they are free that's fine, if they cost money that's fine too because maybe they are using that money to pay to feed their other horses. I think it's time to stop assuming people are doing things for the wrong reasons. I don't think it's right to post a link someone's ad and email and harass them about it. You do not know their personal situation or live their life.

 

[sharpllook]

Hmm just at a sale with $35 horses. Good $business says to raise dwarfs.

If most people would put their noses into the horse market rather than other business first!

THERE are a ton of nice horses on the market dirt cheap. Take advantage of of the market for future.

Also, a horse does not have to win a national award to make it valueable.

I know of too many horses that would NEVER win a halter class but wins the hearts of young/old alike.

My point is if hospitals can charge $25 per Bayer asprine who are we to say someone can not pay X amount to for any horse.

My thoughts and yes, I am being snooty.

DONT JUST BELLYACHE DO SOMETHING.

 

[JWC sr.]

We have some folks here in Texas that specialize in producing dwarfs and ask big bucks for them and get it. Unfortunately!! And no I will not post their name etc. as they do not deserve any free advertising.

It is a real shame when folks intentionally produce them and then sell to the highest bidder. It is bad enough to get one by accident and then have to deal with all the inherent problems of raising and caring for one!

As for our farm and our breeding program, if we ever produce a dwarf, the stallion will be gelded and the mare will be given to someone as a pet with a as good as I can make it contract never to be bred etc. i wish there was some economical way to sterilize the mares also. But I have not heard of one.

It is indeed a problem in our miniature gene pool and this is the main reason I can't wait for genetic testing to be finally available for all of us. It is going to drastically change the way everyone picks bloodlines and breeds in our industry. Also it is a really prime reason not to close the hardship of horses into AMHA. It could and probably will be very serious in the very near future when the testing is finally produced.

 

[Songcatcher]

As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:

1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.

2) People who pay big prices for these animals are contributing to the problem. If there is no market for them, people will quit purposely producing them.

We really do need to do a better job of teaching economics in school. Supply and demand.

 

[Sue_C.]

As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:
1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.

2) People who pay big prices for these animals are contributing to the problem. If there is no market for them, people will quit purposely producing them.

We really do need to do a better job of teaching economics in school. Supply and demand.

Exactly...and it is SOOOO hard, when dwarfism is being exploited with help from the unknowing media. The only miniatures one EVER sees on TV or hears about in the news etc...are dwarves. There are the "guide" horses, Thumbelina and the like...that is all I hear about from people outside of our little miniature world. I did hear that Oprah is planning a miniature horse on one of her shows...if there is a dwarf I will scream!!!

 

[sfmini]

John, you can spay mares. Not sure of the cost, but that is the option for ensuring the mare is never bred again.

 

[JWC sr.]

The last time I talked to our vet about spaying the cost for doing so was 1400.00. Pretty pricey in our book. But yes you are correct it can be done.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:

1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.

2) People who pay big prices for these animals are contributing to the problem. If there is no market for them, people will quit purposely producing them.

We really do need to do a better job of teaching economics in school. Supply and demand.

I agree completely with this statement!

Everyone and anyone could , accidentally, get a dwarf.

As I see it they then have a responsibility to make sure those animals that produced it do not breed again.

If the "old" breeders had done that we would not have the problem that we have today....

 

[Eohippus]

What if the leading stallion (most winning, best producing, flawless conformation, etc) of the industry produced a dwarf? Would you want him cut from the gene pool? If you had any of his foals would you then stop breeding his foals too?

I'm just wondering how far the "cut them from the gene pool" goes?

This is such a hard and complicated topic! It makes me glad I just have minis for fun (showing, therapy, etc) instead of having to worry about dwarfism when breeding!!!

 

[JWC sr.]

Eohippus' I can't speak for anyone else,but yes that is exactly how far I will go. 4 years ago I cut a stallion and his two sons for producing a smaller testicle in each of his sons. I had paid 13,500 for him and it hurt. But he is now a great driving gelding for a good friend of ours. Unless we police ourselves, no one else will!!

 

[Sue_C.]

What if the leading stallion (most winning, best producing, flawless conformation, etc) of the industry produced a dwarf? Would you want him cut from the gene pool? If you had any of his foals would you then stop breeding his foals too?
I'm just wondering how far the "cut them from the gene pool" goes?

IMO, "cut from the gene pool goes ALL THE WAY. Who CARES if he has flawless conformation, if he PRODUCES dwarves, and carriers. What good is his conformation if it is tainted? Good heavens, there is another horse around every corner with great conformation, and championships up the ying-yang that might not have ever produced a dwarf...there is absolutely no reason to continue breeding one that already has. NONE-AT-ALL-E-V-E-R...

KUDOS to you John...if all breeders had your integrity, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[maestoso]

If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse that was a suspected dwarf carrier, yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse that was a suspected dwarf carrier, yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.

This is so very true.