Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
kaykay, we share a a mutual level of admiration for one another. Regardless of your advice (request?), I will continue to contribute my opinions on subjects that are open to discussion.
A Disturbing Trend
- Thread starter kaykay
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I personnaly do not care if it is done one time or everytime. It is something that I do not condone at all! And neither should anyone else. It is CRUEL to do this to any animal!
"If there's nothing wrong with it, and it's not permanent -- just a momentary discomfort -- then whoever was being referred to has nothing to fear."
IMO this person has ALOT to fear. (Name) will not be looked at the same in the ring or potetial buyers...This "Kind" of publicity will ruin a farms name.
Although I do not show, I go to (used to) a lot of shows. I have never seen it done, but have seen it in the way the horses act in the ring, and ALSO for HOURS after the show when the horse is in its stall. Poor Babies..Yes, You got the "Look" from the horse. The big Doe Eye, The Tail Flagging, the Frozen Parked Stand....And maybe even the Blue Ribbon. I hope that you can live with hurting and doing possible permanant damage to your horse, not to mention the trust your horse has with humans. I just wish for 1 minute, the rolls were reversed, and the people who have mistreated there animals, were the ones who were being gingered, whipped, starved, neglected, abused ect.,by the animal they did this too....
"If there's nothing wrong with it, and it's not permanent -- just a momentary discomfort -- then whoever was being referred to has nothing to fear."
IMO this person has ALOT to fear. (Name) will not be looked at the same in the ring or potetial buyers...This "Kind" of publicity will ruin a farms name.
Although I do not show, I go to (used to) a lot of shows. I have never seen it done, but have seen it in the way the horses act in the ring, and ALSO for HOURS after the show when the horse is in its stall. Poor Babies..Yes, You got the "Look" from the horse. The big Doe Eye, The Tail Flagging, the Frozen Parked Stand....And maybe even the Blue Ribbon. I hope that you can live with hurting and doing possible permanant damage to your horse, not to mention the trust your horse has with humans. I just wish for 1 minute, the rolls were reversed, and the people who have mistreated there animals, were the ones who were being gingered, whipped, starved, neglected, abused ect.,by the animal they did this too....
afoulk
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I neither have seen any indication of this at the shows that I have been to but I could have missed it. I would hate to have someone accuse me of using or gingering my horses because of them carrying their tail away from their body and I do have one mare that does it not just when she is moving. I am sure and we all know that people will do what they have to do if they think it will help them win and you always have a protest recourse and should use it if you are so sure it is happening. NOt all of the people reading this type of forum have the expertise of you Kay and might be hard for them to tell if it is natural or a gingered state and would hate to see someone accuse a farm or someone whether is be amateur or professional of doing something illegal. Might all of the concerned please apply for your steward's license and please help moniter this disturbing trend. Be proactive and become an active by becoming a judge or a steward as that is the best place you can stop and/or police such activities.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
See... so we get to it again. "We" (or some of us) are trying to point the finger at one specific farm. Would I want this done to one of my horses? No. Do I think the farm / forum member (and LB supporter) in question, with all their outstanding horses and foals (jealous, anyone?), will suffer any lasting harm from this LB thread that kaykay started? No way.
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Arlene I totally agree. I would not want anyone to accuse someone unless you they knew it was done.
I finally found the AMHR rule in the rule book. I am kinda surprised to see it puts the responsibility on the judge. I was under the impression it was the stewards job. Kinda strange?
From the rule book page 245
A. Any horse showing evidence of the use of ginger or
other irritants to produce a higher tail carriage than
normal shall be disqualified by the judge.
I finally found the AMHR rule in the rule book. I am kinda surprised to see it puts the responsibility on the judge. I was under the impression it was the stewards job. Kinda strange?
From the rule book page 245
A. Any horse showing evidence of the use of ginger or
other irritants to produce a higher tail carriage than
normal shall be disqualified by the judge.
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afoulk
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Yes, it is the judges responsibility however this is pretty gray and really could you see a judge DQing all the Modern ponies that show this evidence. May someone ought to take some pictures for the judges clinic to show them what a gingered tail appearance would look like. Define higher tail carriage than normal. Kay might I suggest that you contact the head of judges and maybe offer to speak of this at the clinics to make judges aware of this trend and show some pictures of what a gingered tail looks like.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
For anyone who doesn't know, this rule book is available for online viewing 24/7 and also easy to download. It's interesting the OP didn't know or take a moment to check the rules before a call to action. Knowledge is power, right? A link to the rulebook is prominently located on the AMHR / ASPC website, along the left hand menu bar. Easily searchable using keywords, too.
http://www.shetlandm...d=130&Itemid=74
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Jill YOU are the one that keeps bringing this back to one farm while I keep trying to bring it to the big picture. You are (inadvertently I hope) bringing attention to a forum farm.
While I would hope that no one would do it - I am more concerned with the show ring as I am in no way naive enough to think you can police what people do at their farm.
However, we can enact change in our chosen association.
Maybe we need a rule re-write? Im not sure. Heck I didn't even know until just a few minutes ago that the responsibility was on the judge. Edited to add--No I do not have the entire rule book memorized. I knew there was a rule for it but did not memorize it. I tried to find it yesterday and ran out of time as I had an important appointment.
Im not sure I agree with that but have to think about it more. I know when I brought it up at the clinic it was never mentioned that it was the judges responsibility. We only talked about Stewards catching it.
The great thing about our association is that you can make a difference. You can submit a rule change. You can go to convention and vote. Which I was happy to do last year.
I would like to hear what people think of the onus being on the judge or whether they think a rule change would help or ???
totally off topic but I have to go pick up my son that has been gone for weeks at Army training. Woohooo I am so happy hes coming home today!
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denny10012
Well-Known Member
Well i thought a lot of this farm before i HEARD some one saying on their video he has POOPED THE PEPPER OUT.!!...... I am not jealous of them in fact i thought they had a wonderful breeding program going.....will it hurt their sales...you bet it will.......i would now never buy from them, and i had thought about it...
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
kaykay, I'm so glad that you've now acquired the easily obtainable rule book. You know, if rule changes were my sincere mindset when I started the thread, vs. finger pointing at another forum member, I'd have taken a mere moment to look it up in the rulebook before starting a discussion!
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denny10012
Well-Known Member
Never the less Kay Kay is right it isnt about just one farm, its about all the stupid people that do this for what ever reason..and it should be stopped in the show ring at least...
Genie
Well-Known Member
I appreciate a topic that is enlightening and will be much more aware of a "certain look" that is unnatural.
I do not think of animal caretakers using cruel practices in order to get "a look" but sadly and obviously, it IS being done or else why would there be reference in a "Rule Book"?
I do not think of animal caretakers using cruel practices in order to get "a look" but sadly and obviously, it IS being done or else why would there be reference in a "Rule Book"?
S
StarRidgeAcres
Guest
I have no background on why this would have anything to do with a specific farm or person as I've seen it (remember, only at auctions at this point) from multiple sources.
But I do think it's an important topic as would be any topic that has to do with the mistreatment of horses.
As Arlene pointed out (think it was Arlene) many horses, including miniatures do naturally carry their tail as if they'd been gingered. You can't look at every horse in the ring that has an awesome tailset and make an assumption. I personally know of a 30" stallion that kicks butt in the Pleasure Driving classes - inlcuding stakes at Nationals, and people often talk about his tail carriage. It's perfectly natural I assure you as I've seen this horse DOZENS of times at his home, in his stall or on the walker or just being worked. His tail is always "out" and it looks amazing. That's just how he is. So, to a judge, how would they know the difference between a natural one and a gingered one? I sure wouldn't want that responsiblity on me personally.
The bottom line for me is that any alteration like this is wrong and I'm not going to do it, nor am I going to allow a trainer to do it to one of my horses. We all have to be smart about the selection of the people we use to train or handle our horses. If you don't know, ask around. Make an informed decision. And if you see certain horses always winning with one trainer/handler and then those horses are sold and all of a sudden can't get an 9th place for anything, well then maybe there was something artificial going on prior to the sale. Or maybe the original handler is just better at it than the new owner.
But I do think it's an important topic as would be any topic that has to do with the mistreatment of horses.
As Arlene pointed out (think it was Arlene) many horses, including miniatures do naturally carry their tail as if they'd been gingered. You can't look at every horse in the ring that has an awesome tailset and make an assumption. I personally know of a 30" stallion that kicks butt in the Pleasure Driving classes - inlcuding stakes at Nationals, and people often talk about his tail carriage. It's perfectly natural I assure you as I've seen this horse DOZENS of times at his home, in his stall or on the walker or just being worked. His tail is always "out" and it looks amazing. That's just how he is. So, to a judge, how would they know the difference between a natural one and a gingered one? I sure wouldn't want that responsiblity on me personally.
The bottom line for me is that any alteration like this is wrong and I'm not going to do it, nor am I going to allow a trainer to do it to one of my horses. We all have to be smart about the selection of the people we use to train or handle our horses. If you don't know, ask around. Make an informed decision. And if you see certain horses always winning with one trainer/handler and then those horses are sold and all of a sudden can't get an 9th place for anything, well then maybe there was something artificial going on prior to the sale. Or maybe the original handler is just better at it than the new owner.
I am usually quite on the heated topics. But I have had enough of the read between the remarks...See...so we get to it again..Show me "WHERE" "I" pointed out a specific farm??? Jealous??? Jill, GIVE (ME) A BREAK!!! There is NOT one single horse/person on this planet that I am Jealous of! I do think that "Others, have outstanding horses and horsemanship" and I will NEVER own one of that Quality. That does not make me jealous of them. Just because I disagree with this "practice" I/we are Jealous in "Your Opinion". The FARM/MEMBER that YOU keep drawing attention to, would probably be grateful if you keep YOUR opionion to yourself and stop drawing attention to them. My focus is the horse and the potential damage it can do to the HORSE. And not trying to Protect the farms that do this.
kaykay, I'm so glad that you've now acquired the easily obtainable rule book. You know, if rule changes were my sincere mindset when I started the thread, vs. finger pointing at another forum member, I'd have taken a mere moment to look it up in the rulebook before starting a discussion!
denny10012
This is what I am talking about, Read between the Remarks..Really Jill? This site means more to me than your cruel/hurtful intended remarks..Im going to shut up before I get myself Banned from LB.
Reble
Well-Known Member
To educate and inform is most important on this forum.
Interesting thread.. cruelty is something I sure wish in all horses could be stopped.
If it helps us to learn and can do something ! that is what is best.
Educate Educate we can always learn something new.
Best to stick to what is important. Stop cruelty to all horses behind closed doors, shows etc...
Again I have learned something new today...
Interesting thread.. cruelty is something I sure wish in all horses could be stopped.
If it helps us to learn and can do something ! that is what is best.
Educate Educate we can always learn something new.
Best to stick to what is important. Stop cruelty to all horses behind closed doors, shows etc...
Again I have learned something new today...
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
Rockin R, I have been primarily addressing the OP, however, your own remarks that I quoted verified that one forum member / farm has been a primary focus of this thread.
And, Yes, Really, Rockin R, Really. Before I'd start a thread and call for rules against something, I'd spend a minute to first check the existing rule book. It's pretty unreasonable not to do so. Unless, of course, I had an ulterior motive in the first place.
And, Yes, Really, Rockin R, Really. Before I'd start a thread and call for rules against something, I'd spend a minute to first check the existing rule book. It's pretty unreasonable not to do so. Unless, of course, I had an ulterior motive in the first place.
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This should not even be an issue. Gingering causes pain and that is animal abuse and animal cruelty and that is against the law. Its also against the rule book.
I'm sorry I am not reading between any lines and I have no idea of who is or isn't pointing a finger and who is guilty of this..... I am not in the show people loop at all so I really don't have a clue. But believe me, if I knew for sure, and I had first hand knowledge, I would never do business with anyone that harms their animals in any way for the sake of a lousy win and that includes starving and beating and overworking. Farms that do that kind of thing are not trustworthy or true horse people if they do this illegal cruelty. They have no respect for the horses they supposedly breed for love. They need to be turned in with ample proof and brought up on animal cruelty charges and kicked out of the registries and put out of business and shunned by YOU and all the honest breed lovers out there. If you know who these people are, don't support them by buying their horses. SHAMEFUL!
I'm sorry I am not reading between any lines and I have no idea of who is or isn't pointing a finger and who is guilty of this..... I am not in the show people loop at all so I really don't have a clue. But believe me, if I knew for sure, and I had first hand knowledge, I would never do business with anyone that harms their animals in any way for the sake of a lousy win and that includes starving and beating and overworking. Farms that do that kind of thing are not trustworthy or true horse people if they do this illegal cruelty. They have no respect for the horses they supposedly breed for love. They need to be turned in with ample proof and brought up on animal cruelty charges and kicked out of the registries and put out of business and shunned by YOU and all the honest breed lovers out there. If you know who these people are, don't support them by buying their horses. SHAMEFUL!
2minis4us
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Riverrose28
Well-Known Member
I have several horses that naturally flag their tails at the trot and in liberty class, which is one reason i like to train these guys for liberty. I would faint if some one accused me of gingering them, but if a judge wanted to inspect I would welcome it.
Also Parmela, you mentioned ear wires? I have a hard time training my guys and gals to give ears all the time, but haven't noticed this, or just havn't been paying attention. I'm like you probly standing there admiring the mare. Do you know how this done? Surgery? Sounds like cheating to me.
Also I havn't seen any finger pointing or farms mentioned on here, I did see a reference to a posted vedio, but it didn't even say which site the vedio was posted on.
I would think who ever posted the vedio would have at least viewed it before posting and as owner of said vedio was the one to post. Maybe, I don't know even if the person refering to said vedio was refering to LB photo/vedios, as it wasn't stated by anyone other then Jill. This subject is relevent, and yes controversial, but is also educational. It may deter a new mini owner from taking the advice of someone that does this.
Also Parmela, you mentioned ear wires? I have a hard time training my guys and gals to give ears all the time, but haven't noticed this, or just havn't been paying attention. I'm like you probly standing there admiring the mare. Do you know how this done? Surgery? Sounds like cheating to me.
Also I havn't seen any finger pointing or farms mentioned on here, I did see a reference to a posted vedio, but it didn't even say which site the vedio was posted on.
I would think who ever posted the vedio would have at least viewed it before posting and as owner of said vedio was the one to post. Maybe, I don't know even if the person refering to said vedio was refering to LB photo/vedios, as it wasn't stated by anyone other then Jill. This subject is relevent, and yes controversial, but is also educational. It may deter a new mini owner from taking the advice of someone that does this.
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I personnaly do not care if it is done one time or everytime. It is something that I do not condone at all! And neither should anyone else. It is CRUEL to do this to any animal!
"If there's nothing wrong with it, and it's not permanent -- just a momentary discomfort -- then whoever was being referred to has nothing to fear."
IMO this person has ALOT to fear. (Name) will not be looked at the same in the ring or potetial buyers...This "Kind" of publicity will ruin a farms name.
Although I do not show, I go to (used to) a lot of shows. I have never seen it done, but have seen it in the way the horses act in the ring, and ALSO for HOURS after the show when the horse is in its stall. Poor Babies..Yes, You got the "Look" from the horse. The big Doe Eye, The Tail Flagging, the Frozen Parked Stand....And maybe even the Blue Ribbon. I hope that you can live with hurting and doing possible permanant damage to your horse, not to mention the trust your horse has with humans. I just wish for 1 minute, the rolls were reversed, and the people who have mistreated there animals, were the ones who were being gingered, whipped, starved, neglected, abused ect.,by the animal they did this too....
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Show me WHERE I singled out a Farm/Individual???? PUT IT IN WRITTING, MY WORDS, WHERE I SAID THAT! You are Unbeleiveable with YOUR Remarks to what I WROTE. Do Not put words in my post that are NOT THERE!
AMEN Marty!
