A sad, sad day at AMHA

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I would agree with Charlotte on this one - the only reason most of this crap goes on is we as members don't bother to go to the meetings and we do not make ourselves heard! Remember we must be there in person as, we're not capable of mail in voting on issues to difficult!!! We allow unfair practices and illegal activities to go on without doing anything.

It isn't easy to commit your time and dollars to attending the meetings but it is crucial to do so. I didn't go to the one in MN this year - sorry way to cold to be there in February (no offense MN members, I'm a California girl and we do turn into popsicles below 32 degrees!), but I am planning on attending the meeting in Florida. I would go to the AMHR meetings, but extracting info on when/where they are seems to be difficult or at least not well publicized.

As for the measuring - it's a joke - at local, regional and the national level. I tell buyers that even as the ones that really study in earnest about measuring and are concerned about heights if they show or not. The measuring needs to be at the withers like any other horses is measured. Writing an acceptable proposal though is the tricky part. To many breeders have invested to much in their 'in size' horses to participate. If it could be written to beginning say three-five years in the future and all horses born by x year are 'grandfathered in' at their current height we should all be able to comply. I know it will never happen, but I can dream!

I mentioned this in another post, but this past summer I was with friends and listened to a trainer say that at least the horse wasn't going to need to have tail hair cut and glued on to make the mane longer - I was dumbfounded! I don't know if this trainer does this or not, but just the fact that someone cheats in this way - what is the point?

Another trainer told me how some trainers will purposely sore a horses back so it will dip and in affect give a shorter measurement to a taller horse. One of mine that I bought last year does that - he measures shorter at every show than I measure at home - I guess my stick is better oiled so he doesn't hear the squeak!

Sorry, but I can't imagine or be that devious to think up ways to cheat like that!

It is overall very frustrating.

** Whomever has the names of the trainers involved with this 28"under/over incident, I would love to hear the details - please PM me.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Another measuring issue relating to this is people , yes big well known farms with high dollar horses are keeping amha papers on their horses that are over including some of the stallions they say are still amha. I have stood next to two of these stallions and know that they are well over 34. Yet their get are going to the shows and thru the big sales as amha reg out of amha parents. Maybe this is contributing to the generous measurements as well not to step on toes of those that are in the spotlight or ruin future sales. IF the horse is over 34 send the papers back and show in amhr..... every generation will get taller if this isnt enforced. I personally like the B size better but I feel there is alot of disservice being done by breeders with truly 35-36 inch well known stallions keeping their A papers or even the mares for that matter. I may be too afraid to lodge complaints but at least I send the papers back when my horses go over even by 1/2 inch! Why dont these others?[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Belinda]

I would go to the AMHR meetings, but extracting info on when/where they are seems to be difficult or at least not well publicized.

It is not difficult to get the information for the AMHR/ASPC National Meeting, It is always published in the Journal just as AMHA does theirs, and also on the web site , and if all else fails call the National Office they will be glad to tell you.. It is

AMHR NATIONAL CONVENTION

 

[user 488]

Yep, that happened once... and changed the whole rules of figuring championships for the years after that, once the horse was taken out and I think 3rd place ended up Champion over the Reserve! Arab shows and the "trainers sticking together" as well as trainers judging trainers... and the highly inflated prices is a huge part of why I moved from showing Arabians to Minis. (guess I'm glad now more AMHR shows than AMHA!) That and lawsuits, cosmetic surgery and abuse this and that and just not having fun in the Arab game anymore, even though my horse and his foals were winning at the higer levels.

Karen, I should not even offer a response. Happening ONCE that someones prize was taken away? You have no idea what you are talking about. It happens every year. And judging systems changed to accomodate one particular person? Nope......sorry. Just not true. I just have to laugh at the misinformation that spreads thru any breed.

How many Nationals have you been too to make such statements? Really, I would like to know. I venture to say not many as many, as many things are changing within the breed as more and more people stand and say... HEY WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH! You can't sit in your own little corner of the World and listen to hear say. I have heard enough BS to last a lifetime. And most of it is BS. It's a shame that rumors run so rampant but it's part of what it takes for some to feel important.

As for the prices...........a horse is worth what a person is willing to pay for it. And I will tell you that I personally have owed atleast 6 National Champions that I paid less than 10k for. Halter as well as performance. I could also list tons of horses that high prices were not paid. And if you could not cut it in the breed don't make the typical excuses, politics, high prices, bla, bla. You don't have to pay big money for a horse to win. All you need is a good eye eye and some good and honest mentors. There are plenty, And I am talking about winning on a National level. I can hold my head up knowing what I have accomplished and knowing that I did not cheat to get it done. Now if you would like to discuss Arabs further you may PM me with your phone number and I will be glad to talk with you further. You might just learn something. This Forum is not about Arabs...............I made a statement about why I show them and I stand by it. And that's all I have to say as it's not worth my breath. It takes small steps to turn into bigger steps. And that is what will make change.

Bottom line is WHAT IS THE MINIATURE HORSE BREED GOING TO DO TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING. What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough like certain Arabian trainer did?????????????? And guess what? It's working! Will it ever be perfect..........NO.........but it's sure a far cry from even 5 years ago.

And edited for my horrendous spelling.

Carol

 

[LaVern]

The AMHR has official stewards, and it must be an awful hard job. I have heard rumors tht even when they tried to play it straight that the board didn't have the guts to back them up.

I have also heard that this is Dicks last year as head of the Stewards and that he will not be top gun next year at Nationals.

Now, I hope that whoever fills his boots as head steward for next year is up to it. I really don't know who would have the nerve to butt heads with some of those boys.

But again, if enough of us can get over the--" I won't do anything cause I hope I can get my horse in the this or that class,"-- and let the chips fall as they may, We can do something by protesting..PROTEST PROTEST PROTEST. Bring that show to a stop.

It is time that the exhibitors stand up and stop cowtoeing to the trainers and the bullies. It is time the trainers learned who butters their bread.

It is a little harder to protest height in the AMHR as you have to have a horse in the class, but if a few of us sat on those tables with the forms and handed out 50.00 to those that needed it fast, we could do it.

I know this is more of an AMHA thread, but the same trainers are involved and when I see one of them come in with a horse that I could work cows on all day, I know that it is to large for my B horses to compete with. There is only 4inches difference between the tallest A and the tallest B and that is not very much.

 

[MiniHGal]

How embarrassing....

And that trainer...oooooo

Gee, does this mean I can go and show Fascination in AMHA?? She's only 35"!! Geesh, even if I could get away with that(which it sounds like I could), I wouldn't--it is just wrong when you know your horse doesn't meet the standards.

 

[Fred]

I personally have two 32" on the line mares. They were in the 30-32 inch class at

several shows. There was one mare owned by a well known person and shown by

a well known trainer in the class. This mare was at least an inch or more over my

girls. This mare was not shown this year, had she been I probably would have

protested it. Most of my horses are right on the line [either 32 or 34]. If you are a

small owner or breeder without a well known trainer and you have a super horse

on the line they will be measured out. Been there done that got that t-shirt. I dont

show AMHA only. I mainly show AMHR I prefer the bigger horses and if the horse

measures over I'll show them B. AMHR also has stewards which does somewhat

help but abuses still occur. The measuring for AMHA has been 'the good old boys

club' for a long time. I was really disappointed this year with the open judging

at AMHR nationals this year because it was the same AMHA judges trainer baloney

IMO. I know others may not agree but I witnessed MANY blatant unprofesional

things, and yes I am working with other members and officials to correct the

problems. Charlotte is right if you sit on your duff it ain't gonna get fixed.

Support your association, it is yours you pay the dues, and don't tolerate the vow

of silence. Without owners and members judges, trainers, stewards don't have a

job. Linda B

 

[walter]

Charlotte, I was unable to attend any day at the world show this year .... who was the measuring person? Thanks.

Clara

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Karen, I should not even offer a response.  Happening ONCE that someones prize was taken away?  You have no idea what you are talking about.  It happens every year.  And judging systems changed to accomodate one particular person?  Nope......sorry.  Just not true.   I just have to laugh at the misinformation that spreads thru any breed.
How many Nationals have you been too to make such statements? Really, I would like to know.  I venture to say not many as many,  as many things are changing within the breed as more and more people stand and say... HEY WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!  You can't sit in your own little corner of the World and listen to hear say.  I have heard enough BS to last a lifetime.  And most of it is BS.  It's a shame that rumors run so rampant but it's part of what it takes for some to feel important. 

As for the prices...........a horse is worth what a person is willing to pay for it.  And I will tell you that I personally have owed and trained atleast 6 National Champions that I paid less than 10k for. Halter as well as performance.  I could also list tons of horses that high prices were not paid.   And if you could not cut it in the breed don't make the typical excuses, politics, high prices, bla, bla.  You don't have  to pay big money for a horse to win. All you need is a good eye eye and some good and honest mentors.  there are plenty,  And I am talking about winning on a National level.  I can hold my head up knowing what I have accomplished and knowing that I did not cheat to get it done.  Now if you would like to discuss Arabs further you may PM me with your phone number and I will be glad to talk with you further.  You might just learn something.  This Forum is not about Arabs...............I made a statement about why I show them and I stand by it.  And that's all I have to say as it's not worth my breath.  It takes small steps to turn into bigger steps.  And that is what will make change.

Bottom line is WHAT IS THE MINIATURE HORSE BREED GOING TO DO TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING.  What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough like certain Arabian trainer did??????????????  And guess what?  It's working!  Will it ever be perfect..........NO.........but it's sure a far cry from even 5 years ago. 

Carol

482233[/snapback]

​

I guess you shouldn't have - (responded, that is) as it's clear you completely missed the meaning of any of the words in my post.

You mentioned a specific incident and I elaborated that it did indeed happen and caused a major upheaval in the breed rules! I didn't make a list of every single thing that's ever happened, but the point is that there are as many problems with AHA (or back then IAHA and AHR) as there are in AMHA and AMHR and any other show entity.

By the way, which certain Arabian Trainer are you referring to? I don't remember hearing about one trainer fixing all the problems in the breed... if I missed it, tell me which issue if AHW, AHT, AHN or AH to look it up in and I'll go out to the garage and sort through the 50 years worth of Arabian magazines out there - again!

What is the miniature horse breed going to do? nothing - the breed is not the show ring, thank goodness! It's the people who'll have to do something, and by and large, the people who are most upset aren't able to afford to make most of the changes.

In these groups, in ANY breed, the minority that can afford to do the traveling to conventions, committees and such are the ones who make the rules. The trainers who devote massive amounts of time (since this is how they make their livings!) are also more in positions to influence the rules than the average member of the breed organization.

THe majority of breeders are the small ones. The majority of owners don't even show. Yet the majority of the majority's time is spent discussing how unfair the game is to the majority, while the minority reap the rewards in the ring. Them's facts. That's the game.

Of course there are a few exceptions - I've been lucky enough to be the exception a few times myself, both in Arabians and Miniatures! I guess that's what keeps us all wanting to play the game along with the folks who can do it without thinking about the checkbook!

Like I was saying, I wish I knew how to make life fair for everyone, but I haven't figured out that magic yet. So is that why you felt the need to make a personal attack on me? I kinda thought we were on the same side until you attacked me!

 

[user 488]

Like I was saying, I wish I knew how to make life fair for everyone, but I haven't figured out that magic yet. So is that why you felt the need to make a personal attack on me? I kinda thought we were on the same time until you attacked!

Not an attack at all. I am sorry you felt that way as it was not my true intention. Just responding to certain things you said that are just not true. I am just sick to death misinformation. Sorry but you are the one that made the comments you did and I am more than happy to discuss any one of them with you privately.

And if I misread you post than I apologize.

Now if you do not know the trainer that stood up and changed the ginger rule and is now fighting the whole retouched photo issues, not my problem. It's not exactly a huge secret. Again, you may email me or whatever. I am always available to discuss anything. And I don't deal in rumor, I deal in fact.

An edited to say that one person does not fix everything in any breed. But it takes only one person to start the ball rolling. And that is the message I am trying to get across here.

And the answer Karen, is exactly what I have already said. Stand up for what you believe in and don't let one group of people intimidate you. (and no I don't mean you personally) It's not an easy road and you will not be well liked for awhile. But guess what? You will be respected in the long run. And you will have your integrity and I can't think of anything worth more than my integrity.

Carol

 

[tagalong]

What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough like certain Arabian trainer did?????????????? 

I had heard that a certain trainer in Texas (can we say names or not?) did just that. And chose not to show those horses who were over the measurements they were "supposed" to be. And go against "the system"... "the club"... call it what you will...

The egotistical trainer who would NOT show a client's horse after that protest... SHOULD be outed by that client (not that most of us do not know who it was by now) ... and SHOULD face the music. I don't care how high a mucky-muck you think you are - that is poor behaviour - like a pouty 5 year old. Can you say UNPROFESSIONAL??? Word spreads anyway - and I hope such actions only come back to bite one in the butt.... or at least - I hope so.

Boycotting shows or not showing is not the answer. Get in there and participate.... and protest ANY irregularities. At meetings - at shows - wherever.

 

[minisch]

AMHA is to blame..... The Worlds and Regionals should always have stringent height measurements. They did it last year and alot of people (big name) farms got screwed because there horses, who have been shown by a trainer all year in divisions they shouldn't be, got thrown in with the bigger guys..... They all whined and complained so this is what happened. Who started the problem, the trainers. Knowing the numbers will go down the AMHA caved.... gave into the politics and the greed.

Your right Charlotte, we are also to blame..... but so aren't the trainers and the AMHA. If it becomes policy that at all Regionals and Worlds horses must be measured by the strictest standards... i.e. laser, video taping, several witness's etc.

If the trainers and us regulars know what the rules will be ahead of time we won't try and break them

 

[Cherokee Rose]

I think this topic is well over due!!! I think it's a Sad day for AMHR and AMHA

this has been coming for sometime ; both registries have promoted themselves to famlies and youth and this is what their teaching them..........to lie, cheat, and steal!! Its is sad when a person cannot take a good honest horse out and win a ribbon with him.......not so many years ago you could and that is when these registries really took off; like someone else said here who do they think is buttering their bread.....it has been the famliys who thought they were promoting registries with some honesty!! And I know this is the real world........but I'm with Lavern some of these horses you could work cows off of

I say enough is enough!!.........Carrie

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok well i am not going to get into the arguing on measuring in and not and who does and doesnt..but I will say I hear in this thread plenty of people saying there horses cant go out and win only the big names can win well I am here to tell youthat just plain isnt true

my daughter has gone out there with her little gelding and come home with a top ten - me the big ol show doofus has gone out there in ammy and come out with a top ten so while the world of showing isnt perfect (and not just in our breed or not just in horses) it is very possible for the little guy to work hard and get out there and do well.

I just didnt want that aspect to get lost in the other realities of this thread

 

[LaVern]

This thread has taken up all of my thinking space for awhole day. I can't seem to get it out of my mind. But I do have to say one more thing. I would like to apologize to all the good trainers out there. And there are lots of them. I should have not lumped them all together.

There couldn't be a kinder, nicer,more honest person in the world than my Michelle.

But ones like that GUY, whoever he is, make me crazy.

 

[pam]

I also noticed the discrepancy in the height in my horse's class. My horse measured at 27 3/4 at an R show this summer. At the AMHA World, she measured 27 1/4. However, she was noticeably smaller than all the other horses. The Champion and Reserve in her class were..... can you guess - 28 inches.

I heard that they were letting anything in the classes. This is not a good policy for sure, and just sets everything up for really bad feelings all the way around. Since I am a newbie at the shows, I am just beginning to see how things work.

I would love to have someone PM me about the name of the trainer who was involved with the threats of the boycott.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

This thread has taken up all of my thinking space for awhole day.  I can't seem to get it out of my mind.  But I do have to say one more thing.  I would like to apologize to all the good trainers out there.  And there are lots of them. I should have not lumped them all together.There couldn't be a kinder, nicer,more honest person in the world than my Michelle.

But ones like that GUY, whoever he is, make me crazy.

482390[/snapback]

​

TOTALLY there are great trainers out there who are great people - I've known several in both breeds I'm curently involved in... like Joel White who does both Arabians and Miniatures and works so nicely with both - no shortcuts and no abuse! (I've known those too!)

It isn't an issue simply of trainers vs owners, rich vs not-so-rich or winners vs losers... it's an issue of honesty and integrity and playing by the rules!

 

[wcr]

I am glad this subject has come up. I have shown horses for 40 odd years and shown in several different registries and now am showing A, R and Pinto. After this year I will never show A again. I know what shank power is and how it feels. I have had a horse dip down and end in a shorter class than I had entered in only to be towered over by a certain presidents horse shown by a high power trainer. Shame on you !!!! The regionals were a farce in some classes and I actually booed the judges at their placing. Never again.

 

[Becky]

It isn't an issue simply of trainers vs owners, rich vs not-so-rich or winners vs losers... it's an issue of honesty and integrity and playing by the rules!

Absolutely!! And it's time we stepped up and let others know that the majority is tired of the unethical practices of a few!

 

[JohnN]

Just curious, but wonder why no AMHA director or officer has jumped in on this thread? A lack of rules enforcement, all rules, not just show rules, is the reason a lot of us no longer show or participate in AMHA activities. It only took me 11 years of showing AMHA to come to the conclusion that most National/World winners are determined by who you are, not who you show. Good luck on trying to make changes.