A sad, sad day at AMHA

[Angel2]

Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE". What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.

Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.

 

[wildoak]

The Worlds and Regionals should always have stringent height measurements

And these rules should be abided by all year. What upset people so when they tightened up at Regionals / Nationals a couple of years ago was the fact that they had shown horses by different standards all year.

My gelding happened to measure what I consider to be his correct height (32.5")this year, but watching classes made it pretty obvious that many did not. Measuring was very casual compared to last time around - no marking on the withers, no one stressing much over it.

What really gripes me is the cavalier attitude of some of the AMHA leadership, when it comes to bending the rules. Measuring was not the only issue at World - there were horses allowed in classes they had not qualified for. Did I miss the announcement prior to the show that you didn't have to qualify this year? Fine if it's for everyone, but don't wait till the show starts and let horses in when others have worked to qualify, or perhaps didn't bring horses because they weren't qualified.

There was a lot of grumbling this year, more than I've ever heard. I really try to stay away from it - I want to believe the best of our organization and the people who run it but I was appalled this year at the things I saw. There was another instance of a rules exception being requested for a very legitimate medical reason, and although the request was denied, they were told they should just "go ahead and do it anyway, no one will know" What kind of ethics does that reflect??

AMHA did have evaluation forms on the table this year the last couple of days, and boy will they get an earful.

Charlotte, you are so right about our involvement. I am guilty too of not making the effort to go to national meetings, etc., and I need to do better.

Jan

 

[tagalong]

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.

Gee Angel - what about those who were subtly insinuating that Strider did not win the Champion of Champions due to something shady??? And not that Miss Kentucky is also a superb horse??

Anyway - NONE of the comments you have made above should prevent a PROFESSIONAL from doing his job and seeing the project (taking a horse through the show) through to its completion. If someone pulled a stunt like that in an office - they would be fired... *shrug*

You seem to be suggesting that it was WRONG to file a protest... and that is sooooo not the right way to solve these issues.

No - the big trainers do NOT have a lock on the placings all the time any more - many highly thought of horses with a well-known trainer on the end of the lead walked this past week. But that does not excuse the RAMPANT measuring problems. Explain to me how a horse who measured just a hair short of 35" two years ago as a growing youngster could possibly belong in the 30 - 32" class at AMHA Worlds last weekend.... well - said horse was there. Unbelievable....

 

[Thunder]

Could someone please pm me with the name of the trainer who refused to honor their contract? I keep a list of people who we will not employ and I would like to add this name. Thank you

Va Lynda Ann

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Angel2 - I'm not one to be confrontational or argumentative on the Forum, especially when I don't know whom I'm addressing but please get real here!!!

Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE". What was said as quoted by the trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.

Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Either you're naive or new to minis or employed by these characters! No one should shout fire in the theater, but the people that have voiced concerns here are knowledgable about the goings on with both registries and would not stir the pot without reason!

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.

If I as an owner, feel the need to protest another horse that has nothing to do with my contracted trainer showing my horse! We have a contract - he's suppose to honor that. Perhaps out of courtesy it would be good to inform him, but it's not his decision to protest it would be mine - period! If he had any ethics he would have supported this protest and told his buddy to back down and correct what he was trying to do instead of bailing on his client! I do hope the clients sue - let the courts decide if he was right or wrong.

 

[Mulligans Run]

Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE".  What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.
Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.

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Touche'. Have any of you heard the passage, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"

Everyone is jumping on a bandwagon here to flame this trainer, whose side you HAVE NOT HEARD.

It's one thing to question the ethics of measuring, but it's another to damage the reputation of a professional trainer. Address the matter where it should be addressed - with the AMHA and their measuring steward and their measuring practices.

Becky has the right idea in suggesting a change to the ruling and that's where the change needs to take place. Tarnishing the reputation of this trainer will only aid and benefit other trainers - (who have also posted their opinions here) it won't solve the issue.

Focus your energies where they will make a positive change.

 

[whitney]

I have IT.

Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement) they have to walk through.

If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them.

 

[Annetta]

Angel--the trainer was blindsided by the accusation? You mean the trainer that was showing the 29.5" horse in the under 28" class? (Horse did measure at 29.5" after the protest right?) If said trainer is going to take a larger horse into a smaller class (some people call that cheating I think) then he should expect to be "caught". Just because "everyone" has been getting away with this sort of thing doesn't mean that it's always going to work--no one should be blindsided by getting caught. Poor thing, I don't feel a bit sorry for that one.

We've been talking about this around here, and we kind of wonder--if the measurement officials at these shows are trying so hard to please everyone that they are asking "what do you want him to be" & then then measure the horse in to that size, so that horses 1.5 to 2 inches over the size are getting into the various classes...why even waste time measuring. Just let everyone enter where they want & call it good. That way it's fair for everyone--big guys, little people, everyone can do what they want.

I do see the problem someone mentioned earlier on one of these threads--rule changes are hard when the big guys don't want those rule changes & so many "little people" cannot get to the annual meeting to vote. I wish both AMHA & AMHR had proxy or mail in voting. I've been in a breed organization that allowed proxy voting, & I thought it was great--when I couldn't attend the annual meeting, I still had a voice in the decisions made, I just had to be sure to give my proxy to someone that I knew would vote the way I wanted to vote.

 

[willowoodstables]

Ok...I have been involved in showing horses for years. Every YEAR there is someone protesting someone else about measurement. The rules OTHER breeds follows is as such:

Put your money where your mouth is. Put up the protest money and let the stewards handle it. If the horse measures over..you win..horse gets moved to proper class or totally disqualified (or winnings taken away). Horse measures in..too bad for you. Been on both sides..luckily my horse looked BIG but did measure. My protest was honoured and the horse in question was over by 2 inches.

On that note, if the show committee hides under the "Up to the discrection of the Show Committee" umbrella we all lose. Don't let anyone back you into a corner for what you believe! If you honestly (without sour grapes like I've seen happen) beleive a horse is too big, protest. If the committee won't go to the registry. If that doesn't work try the governing body for equestrians and let them know (somewhere in the constitution of registries there MUST (if not should be) a line stating how they wish to follow USEF or CEF or EUF rules).

But back to measuring..until a completely fool-proof (pun intended) method becomes the STANDARD to measure ALL horses with, we are at the mercy of interpretations, bad ground, bad stick etc etc etc. My horses measure up to 2 inches different at shows..what a JOKE. So..lets all put on the collective thinking cap and stop pointing fingers and come up with a STANDARD that all are measured by. I have had horses measured on a silly piece of plywood ontop of a sandy arena (please...like that's level).

Voting is a great idea..but you have to be ready to pay the consequences of the vote..it may not work in your favour.

Kim

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE".  What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.
Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.

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Yep you are right had this been one of our "own" then you can bet everyone would be defending until they had ALL the info in front of them

 

[Becky]

As I stated in my topic regarding measuring, I am submitting a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.

This won't eliminate all problems, but it is a step in the right direction. I don't believe we need to change where we measure our horses; there are ways to cheat in anything where humans are involved. What AMHA needs to do is stick by it's measuring rule. Period. The rule is in place. It needs to be enforced.

Any owner should have the right to protest any horse at a show be it for height or any other reason they deem that the rules have not been followed without fear of repercussion by anybody.

 

[Ashley]

As I stated in my topic regarding measuring, I am submitting a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.

Well how is that gonna work really? I dont show AMHA but do show AMHR so will use my example from there. I have a gelding who measures 34". But depending on the person measureing he has measured anywere from 33.5 to 34.25" So say I show him all summer and 50% of the time he measures over 34 the other under. How would you decided what class he is supposed to be in? When you have horses on the line like that its gonna be to hard to pick and choose where they should go.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

I have IT. 
Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement)  they have to walk through. 

If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them. 

482673[/snapback]

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Cool! I used to have an Arabian mare who could walk through a 34" high opening I didn't get her stall door all the way closed - would that make her a mini?

(just injecting a little levity!)

 

[Jill]

I have IT. 
Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement)  they have to walk through. 

If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them. 

482673[/snapback]

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Oh, if nothing else, I think you maybe just came up with a new halter obstacle!!!

 

[tagalong]

Any owner should have the right to protest any horse at a show be it for height or any other reason they deem that the rules have not been followed without fear of repercussion by anybody.

Bolding mine. Absolutely. Is it really that unreasonable that any trainer should be professional enough to show the horse they have been contracted to present - no matter WHAT was going on behind the scenes??? *shrug* I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp... but hey - I am just a Nobody ... *sigh* ... and if it was "one of our own" - that would not excuse that person either....

As far as the Push Through box goes ( a Push-Me Pull-You?

) would it have a width limit as well??

 

[Franklin]

I have not read every post on this thread, but have read enough of them to remind me why I had rather enjoy my horses out in the field than in a show ring.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I have not read every post on this thread, but have read enough of them to remind me why I had rather enjoy my horses out in the field than in a show ring. 

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and frankly to me this is one of the saddest things I have read and hope it doesnt keep those who are anxious to try out of the ring.

 

[Mnmini]

A very interesting topic. I'm sure the last mane hair was perhaps to initially make the horses measure smaller, but should have aided in consistency as well.

Measuring difficulties is not a problem soley with minis! I can't even count the number of times QH advertised as 16.2 were really only 15.3, and it isn't just a QH thing either. I laughed with a dressage instructor that had competed on arabs back in her 3-day eventing days. She said she didn't know how big a 15.2 hand horse was for several years because all of the arab folks were calling their 14.2 handers 15.2

There is a lot of honest mis-measurement out there (referring to large horses here), as folks seem to be stumped at where exactly the withers are!?!

My own driving mini is solidly in the middle of his size class 34 -36. I would LOVE for him to measure over 36, but don't see that happening. Two years ago, he measured 35 3/4, and has been steadily shrinking ever since. He was pretty consistently measured at 35 1/2 most of last year and this, but was an astonishing 35 at Nationals this year! I laughed after he was measured, that I had one of those coveted "shrinking" minis, and he'd be eligble to be hardshipped into AMHA soon!

 

[Laura]

[SIZE=14pt]to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed. My thoughts on this---the horse is right there available---how long would it take to measure him???? Then he could just stay right there and go into the next class that fit his height.[/SIZE]

The 30" horse did place in the Top Ten.

The trainer of the 28" horse then refused to show that horse in his class because "trainers have to stick together" (this quote is what the owner repeated to me) resulting in the loss of a possible World Championship for the horse and much pain and financial loss for the owner. (the trainer is also a judge which leads us to other issues)

~~~

[SIZE=14pt]Wow, *if* this is the exact way this went down, I hope the owner SUES. A trainer's first responsibility is to the horse and the client, period, end of file. Snit fits have NO place in any service industry. A trainer is an employee, who can be FIRED the same as any other employee. I'd have told the trainer to stuff it, grabbed the nearest willing handler and sent my horse in the correct class or shown it myself! [/SIZE]

As a trainer who just recently retired, I can say what I darn well please now

I was blessed with wonderful clients throughout the years and I would have NEVER considered behaving that way. *If* it really did happen this way, shame on them

 

[bob r]

I will rob Peter to pay Paul and attend the annual meetings.......I will go early and sit in on the

JUST ANOTHER REASON WE SHOULD HAVE VOTING BY EMAIL!!!! OR MAIL BALLOTS.

BUT THE MONEY PEOPLE WON'T LET THAT HAPPEN!!!!!!!! THEY CAN'T CONTROL THINGS THAT WAY.